Singing Ave Maria in church/home robs God's Glory?

[layhoma]

Why is the “Hail Mary” prayer (said or sung) worship?


Why?
Where does it say that in the Bible?



Mary is certainly not part of the Trinity. We can agree on that.

How do the words in the prayer rob God of his glory?



Why then did Paul ask people to pray for him (e.g. Eph 6:19-20, Col 4:3, 1Thess 5:25, 2 Thess 3:1, Heb 13:18) ?

Was Paul wrong to do that?



I can't see how it exalts Mary above Jesus. Mary is a creature and can never be out above Jesus.

She is Jesus' mother. Should she not be honoured?

Look, I am baffled and that's the reason why I am in here, to seek directions. Please be gentle because I really feel like
being interrogated, for lack of a better word. I will try my best to answer you with my limited wisdom.

Honoring Marry is right. But As the lyrics end with the word "Amen", I find that it is exclusively used for God only.

Why is the “Hail Mary” prayer (said or sung) worship?


Why?
Where does it say that in the Bible?



Mary is certainly not part of the Trinity. We can agree on that.

How do the words in the prayer rob God of his glory?



Why then did Paul ask people to pray for him (e.g. Eph 6:19-20, Col 4:3, 1Thess 5:25, 2 Thess 3:1, Heb 13:18) ?

Was Paul wrong to do that?



I can't see how it exalts Mary above Jesus. Mary is a creature and can never be out above Jesus.

She is Jesus' mother. Should she not be honoured?

Look, I am baffled and that's the reason why I am in here, to seek directions. Please be gentle because I really feel like
being interrogated, for lack of a better word. I will try my best to answer you with my limited wisdom.

Honoring Marry is right. But As the lyrics end with the word "Amen", I find that it is exclusively used for God only.

Why is the “Hail Mary” prayer (said or sung) worship?


Why?
Where does it say that in the Bible?

As I have said before: Luke 4:8[background=rgb(247, 247, 247)] [/background]

[background=rgb(247, 247, 247)]Jesus replied, "The Scriptures say, 'You must worship the LORD your God and serve only him.'"[/background]

 

[Hollyrock]

I personally think that Ave Maria and all songs like it are a slap in the face of God. Mary is not the mother of God, she was just used by God. She has no power to answer or influence answers to prayer. Jesus is the only mediator between God and man and to pray to anyone else is worshipping that which was created rather than the creator Himself. That, like the golden calf is idolatry...don't do it.

 

[Mungo]

Look, I am baffled and that's the reason why I am in here, to seek directions. Please be gentle because I really feel like
being interrogated, for lack of a better word. I will try my best to answer you with my limited wisdom.

Honoring Marry is right. But As the lyrics end with the word "Amen", I find that it is exclusively used for God only.

Sorry,

I didn't mean to hassle you.

I disagree with your point about Amen, but I'll leave it at that.

God bless

 

[layhoma]

What has that to do with it?

You seemed to be saying with your quotes that nobody should pray for us because that conflicts with Christ as our intercessor and one mediator.

Either we should not aks anyone to pray for us, in which case Paul was wrong to ask, or we can ask others to pray for us..

Whether they are living here on earth now, or are in heaven is a different issue.

This is a very difficult one to fathom. Look I'm just saying, perhaps there is some scriptural references but I don't know. I don't believe there is any way for the saints in heaven to communicate with us, as living flesh on earth. We will meet them one day but not before the rapture or before we head home. Therefore we could only pray to God through Jesus. Period. We can ask any living Christians to pray for us but still I believe we can't commune with any saints that has been taken home.

 

[Mungo]

I personally think that Ave Maria and all songs like it are a slap in the face of God. Mary is not the mother of God, she was just used by God. She has no power to answer or influence answers to prayer. Jesus is the only mediator between God and man and to pray to anyone else is worshipping that which was created rather than the creator Himself. That, like the golden calf is idolatry...don't do it.

Mary "was just used by God" !!!!!

What a horrible thing to say.

What does that say about God?

 

[layhoma]

Jesus loves you Mungo! and me too B)

I thought just came to mind as to why I think we can't pray to the saints including Marry. It's stretch but it might just work:



Luke 16:19-31

New International Version (NIV)

The Rich Man and Lazarus

[sup]19 [/sup]“There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day. [sup]20 [/sup]At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores [sup]21 [/sup]and longing to eat what fell from the rich man’s table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores.
[sup]22 [/sup]“The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham’s side. The rich man also died and was buried.[sup]23 [/sup]In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. [sup]24 [/sup]So he called to him, ‘Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.’
[sup]25 [/sup]“But Abraham replied, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony.[sup]26 [/sup]And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been set in place, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.’
[sup]27 [/sup]“He answered, ‘Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my family, [sup]28 [/sup]for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’
[sup]29 [/sup]“Abraham replied, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.’
[sup]30 [/sup]“‘No, father Abraham,’ he said, ‘but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.’
[sup]31 [/sup]“He said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.’”

So we are not dead. Being in hades severed all connections with God. Being in the flesh, on earth we could communicate to God through Jesus. What inspired me in this passage is that we are still separated by a spiritual barrier between heaven and earth, and any attempt to make contact, except to God is not possible. Therefore I don't think we could ask Marry or anyone up above to pray for us. Look this is just my " idea " and not a doctrine. But I guess many would agree to disagree. :mellow:

 

[Selene]

This is a very difficult one to fathom. Look I'm just saying, perhaps there is some scriptural references but I don't know. I don't believe there is any way for the saints in heaven to communicate with us, as living flesh on earth. We will meet them one day but not before the rapture or before we head home. Therefore we could only pray to God through Jesus. Period. We can ask any living Christians to pray for us but still I believe we can't commune with any saints that has been taken home.

In the Book of Revelations, it says that the angels and those in Heaven offer up the prayers of those on earth to God. That means both the angels and those in Heaven can pray for us just as those on earth can pray for us because everyone in Heaven are "living." (See Revelations 8:3-4 and Revelations 5:8). They're alive, not dead. To think that the angels and souls in Heaven are not alive and have no concern over their loved ones on earth is a misconception of what God's kingdom is like. God instructed us to love everyone including our enemies. This love for one another does not stop when we die. Thus, the souls in Heaven continue to express that love for everyone including those who are still in earth. One way to express that love is to pray for our neighbor and even our enemies.

 

[Mungo]

Jesus loves you Mungo! and me too B)

I thought just came to mind as to why I think we can't pray to the saints including Marry. It's stretch but it might just work:



Luke 16:19-31

New International Version (NIV)

The Rich Man and Lazarus

[sup]19 [/sup]“There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day. [sup]20 [/sup]At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores [sup]21 [/sup]and longing to eat what fell from the rich man’s table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores.
[sup]22 [/sup]“The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham’s side. The rich man also died and was buried.[sup]23 [/sup]In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. [sup]24 [/sup]So he called to him, ‘Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.’
[sup]25 [/sup]“But Abraham replied, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony.[sup]26 [/sup]And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been set in place, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.’
[sup]27 [/sup]“He answered, ‘Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my family, [sup]28 [/sup]for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’
[sup]29 [/sup]“Abraham replied, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.’
[sup]30 [/sup]“‘No, father Abraham,’ he said, ‘but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.’
[sup]31 [/sup]“He said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.’”

So we are not dead. Being in hades severed all connections with God. Being in the flesh, on earth we could communicate to God through Jesus. What inspired me in this passage is that we are still separated by a spiritual barrier between heaven and earth, and any attempt to make contact, except to God is not possible. Therefore I don't think we could ask Marry or anyone up above to pray for us. Look this is just my " idea " and not a doctrine. But I guess many would agree to disagree. :mellow:

The gulf was between those in the bosom of Abraham (not heaven) and Hell.

At that time Jesus had not died and opened the gates of heaven.

Paul says:
“For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor rulers, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, nor height, nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.” (Rom 8:38-39).

Jesus uses the image of the vine, with us as the branches.
“Abide in me as I abide in you. Just as the branch cannot bear fruit by itself unless it abides in the vine, neither can you unless you abide in me. I am the vine, you are the branches. Those who abide in me and I in them bear much fruit, because apart from me you can do nothing. Whoever does not abide in me is thrown away like a branch and withers; such branches are gathered, thrown into the fire, and burned. If you abide in me, and my words abide in you, ask for whatever you wish, and it will be done for you.” (John 15:4-7)

Are those saints who die cut off from Christ and thrown into the fire? Or are they still abiding in Christ and still bearing much fruit? Is Jesus still doing for them whatever they ask?

The writer of Hebrews uses the image of running a race with those who have gone before us cheering us on. “Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us also lay aside every weight and the sin that clings so closely, and let us run with perseverance the race that is set before us.” (Heb 12:1).

This follows his recalling of the heroes of the Old Testament and says about them “Yet all these, though they were commended for their faith, did not receive what was promised, since God had provided something better so that they would not, apart from us, be made perfect.” (Heb 11:39-40).

So they are alive witnessing us in our struggles. But they did not immediately receive what was promised, they had to wait for “something better so that they would not, apart from us, be made perfect.” So it follows that the Saints are alive with them, having been made perfect

 

[layhoma]

In the Book of Revelations, it says that the angels and those in Heaven offer up the prayers of those on earth to God. That means both the angels and those in Heaven can pray for us just as those on earth can pray for us because everyone in Heaven are "living." (See Revelations 8:3-4 and Revelations 5:8). They're alive, not dead. To think that the angels and souls in Heaven are not alive and have no concern over their loved ones on earth is a misconception of what God's kingdom is like. God instructed us to love everyone including our enemies. This love for one another does not stop when we die. Thus, the souls in Heaven continue to express that love for everyone including those who are still in earth. One way to express that love is to pray for our neighbor and even our enemies.

Wow that is good! That kinda makes sense. But there are some loopholes. May I allow to counter your verse with this verse.

Revelation 21:1 Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away. Also there was no more sea. 2 Then I, John, saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

3 And I heard a loud voice from heaven saying, "Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people. God Himself will be with them and be their God. 4 And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes; there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away."

So if God promised there would be no tears or sorrow in heaven, and if what your verse said is right that the livings are well aware of our presence on earth, how could they managed to have joy knowing how their loved ones are depressed, unsaved, hurt or in pain ? wouldn't knowing them of their earthly predicaments contradict with God's promise ? God will not take away our emotions. That we are made in his image. So allow me to over-stretch this concept of still having ties with our loved ones in heaven and them knowing everything that is happening here on earth would defeat God's purpose

Oh boy I'm rationalizing again. Hope I'm not making a fool out of myself.

 

[aspen]

I personally think that Ave Maria and all songs like it are a slap in the face of God. Mary is not the mother of God, she was just used by God. She has no power to answer or influence answers to prayer. Jesus is the only mediator between God and man and to pray to anyone else is worshipping that which was created rather than the creator Himself. That, like the golden calf is idolatry...don't do it.

Jesus is God. Mary gave birth to Jesus. There is no 'power' involved - she was chosen for her humility, not her greatness. But she is rightly called the Mother of God. To deny it is to deny Christ's divinity.

 

[layhoma]

The gulf was between those in the bosom of Abraham (not heaven) and Hell.

At that time Jesus had not died and opened the gates of heaven.

Paul says:
“For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor rulers, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, nor height, nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.” (Rom 8:38-39).

Jesus uses the image of the vine, with us as the branches.
“Abide in me as I abide in you. Just as the branch cannot bear fruit by itself unless it abides in the vine, neither can you unless you abide in me. I am the vine, you are the branches. Those who abide in me and I in them bear much fruit, because apart from me you can do nothing. Whoever does not abide in me is thrown away like a branch and withers; such branches are gathered, thrown into the fire, and burned. If you abide in me, and my words abide in you, ask for whatever you wish, and it will be done for you.” (John 15:4-7)

Are those saints who die cut off from Christ and thrown into the fire? Or are they still abiding in Christ and still bearing much fruit? Is Jesus still doing for them whatever they ask?

The writer of Hebrews uses the image of running a race with those who have gone before us cheering us on. “Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us also lay aside every weight and the sin that clings so closely, and let us run with perseverance the race that is set before us.” (Heb 12:1).

This follows his recalling of the heroes of the Old Testament and says about them “Yet all these, though they were commended for their faith, did not receive what was promised, since God had provided something better so that they would not, apart from us, be made perfect.” (Heb 11:39-40).

So they are alive witnessing us in our struggles. But they did not immediately receive what was promised, they had to wait for “something better so that they would not, apart from us, be made perfect.” So it follows that the Saints are alive with them, having been made perfect

Totally agreed! well said. Though we have drifted from the original topic but I must wholehearted thank you for your time spend
in here dealing with a stubborn man. I shouldn't use that verse to substantiate anything in the first place. It was a bold and fruitless attempt.

 

[Selene]

Wow that is good! That kinda makes sense. But there are some loopholes. May I allow to counter your verse with this verse.

Revelation 21:1 Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away. Also there was no more sea. 2 Then I, John, saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

3 And I heard a loud voice from heaven saying, "Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people. God Himself will be with them and be their God. 4 And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes; there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away."

So if God promised there would be no tears or sorrow in heaven, and if what your verse said is right that the livings are well aware of our presence on earth, how could they managed to have joy knowing how their loved ones are depressed, unsaved, hurt or in pain ? wouldn't knowing them of their earthly predicaments contradict with God's promise ? God will not take away our emotions. That we are made in his image. So allow me to over-stretch this concept of still having ties with our loved ones in heaven and them knowing everything that is happening here on earth would defeat God's purpose

Oh boy I'm rationalizing again. Hope I'm not making a fool out of myself.

All joy and happiness comes from God despite what difficulties a person is facing. The Apostles and the rest of the martyrs can attest to this. When the Apostles went to their deaths, they did not go to their death with sorrow. They went to their death singing with joy because the Holy Spirit was in them. To them, death is the beginning of a new life with Jesus Christ.

The love of God comes first before anyone else or even before anything else. The families of the martyrs were weeping, but the martyrs themselves were going to their deaths singing with joy. All the sorrows and pain in the world is nothing when one looks forward to being with Christ. God comes first before anyone else. This is why Christ said, those who love mother, father, brother, sister, son, or daughter more than me is not worthy of me. We are to love God first and then our neighbors second. Happiness comes from God. But we pray for our families because we love them and want them to experience the happiness and joy that we know that comes only from God. The saints in Heaven know this very well, and they pray for us on earth because they love us and want us to experience the same joy and happines that they are experiencing with God in Heaven.

 

[layhoma]

Jesus is God. Mary gave birth to Jesus. There is no 'power' involved - she was chosen for her humility, not her greatness. But she is rightly called the Mother of God. To deny it is to deny Christ's divinity.

I think that must have hit a cord. Yes Marry was chosen by God as a human vessel because He find favors in her, but not because she was sinless (I think Jesus is the only person that is sinless in the whole book of the Bible). Marry is truly the mother of Jesus, only in a human sense, but she was never divine. I guess what I'm confused about this song Ave Maria was because somehow it delivers a message to me that she was a divine being, above the rank of a saint, which is impossible besides the triune God.

All joy and happiness comes from God despite what difficulties a person is facing. The Apostles and the rest of the martyrs can attest to this. When the Apostles went to their deaths, they did not go to their death with sorrow. They went to their death singing with joy because the Holy Spirit was in them. To them, death is the beginning of a new life with Jesus Christ.

The love of God comes first before anyone else or even before anything else. The families of the martyrs were weeping, but the martyrs themselves were going to their deaths singing with joy. All the sorrows and pain in the world is nothing when one looks forward to being with Christ. God comes first before anyone else. This is why Christ said, those who love mother, father, brother, sister, son, or daughter more than me is not worthy of me. We are to love God first and then our neighbors second. Happiness comes from God. But we pray for our families because we love them and want them to experience the happiness and joy that we know that comes only from God. The saints in Heaven know this very well, and they pray for us on earth because they love us and want us to experience the same joy and happines that they are experiencing with God in Heaven.

Thanks that is very inspirational. Now I'm on a high learning curve. I hope you're right because I know many dying Christians whom I think have earned salvation but yet carried loads of burden with them prior to their departure in this world. One person on a forum rationalize that God would just probably wipe away those memories that are of sadness once they enter his kingdom. But there are just so many things we mere mortals can comprehend. That is why Jesus answers us with parables. And yet we hold centuries of debates over some of these parables without converging into a infallible beliefs. How insignificant we are at HIS presence.

 

[Mungo]

I think that must have hit a cord. Yes Marry was chosen by God as a human vessel because He find favors in her, but not because she was sinless (I think Jesus is the only person that is sinless in the whole book of the Bible). Marry is truly the mother of Jesus, only in a human sense, but she was never divine. I guess what I'm confused about this song Ave Maria was because somehow it delivers a message to me that she was a divine being, above the rank of a saint, which is impossible besides the triune God.

I think many Christians have a problem understanding Mary as the Mother of God.

This does not mean Mary is older than God, or that she is the source of her Son’s divinity. She is the Mother of God in that she carried in her womb, and gave birth to, a divine person – Jesus Christ, God “in the flesh”

The definition, made at the Council of Ephesus (431), was not to glorify Mary but to affirm that Jesus’ two natures – divine and human were united in one divine person.

That definition was made in response to a fifth century heresy called Nestorianism which said that Mary did not carry God but only carried Christ’s human nature in her womb.

Nestorians claimed that Mary did not give birth to a unified person but tried to separate Jesus’ human nature from his divine nature, creating two separate persons, one human and one divine in a loose affiliation.

 

[7angels]

the song in and of itself is not good or bad. it is how it comes across in meaning that puts it in one category or the other. let us look at this song and try and unravel what it cold mean.

Lyrics of the song in English:

Hail Mary,
full of grace,
the Lord is with thee;
blessed art thou among women,
and blessed is the fruit of thy womb,
Jesus.
Holy Mary,
Mother of God,
pray for us sinners,
now and at the hour of our death.
Amen.

first, we are calling out to mary where we should be calling out to God. for example which is better to call to mary to pray for us or call to God and get that which we ask for? second, mary was not full of grace but full of favor. there is a different. nowhere in scripture does it say mary was full of grace that i know of but it does say mary had the favor of God. third, any woman that does the will of God is blessed and God is not an person that favors one over another for all are equal in his eyes. fourth, mary has no more favor or power to pray for us then our neighbor does. for Jesus says in his word that i have no brothers, sisters, or mothers but those who do the will of my Father in heaven. so to single out one person above another is idolatry.

mungo in answer to your question of Why then did Paul ask people to pray for him (e.g. Eph 6:19-20, Col 4:3, 1Thess 5:25, 2 Thess 3:1, Heb 13:18) ?
Was Paul wrong to do that?

first off why would you pray to mary when there is the Father, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit? what did mary do that deserves recognition? it is not by works we are saved and if you praise her for it then you are exalting her and the word teaches against exalting ourselves but to let God in his own time lift us up. the catholic church has turned mary into an idol and i don't think it was meant to but over the centuries it has turned into it.

all these verses you listed are asking for prayer but not praying to anyone. the way this song is put has great resemblance to the Lord's prayer. our Father who art in heaven(hail mary, Holy Mary, Mother of God,), hollowth be thy name(full of grace, blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb), pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death(this is the object of what you are asking for-in other words the prayer portion of the Lord's prayer). this is all exalting mary because the word teaches to pray in Jesus' name and you don't even do it here. this whole song is not about God although it does mention God. we are to exalt God in everything we do and this song does not do that.

God bless

 

[Groundzero]

Ummmmm, Mary, the mother of God. . . . not quite. There is NOTHING scriptural about this term. Look it up. Mary, the mother of Jesus is correct, but NOT the mother of God. I don't know what the big deal is about this. Scripture is clear that there is ONE mediator between God and man, Jesus Christ.


1Ti 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

And I hope I don't have to post Scriptures proving that the Bible declares that there is ONE God and there is no other. Mary was just a human being. Just like you and me, nothing special.

Check this out:
Act 1:14 These all continued with one accord in prayer and supplication, with the women, and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with his brethren.

Mary, the mother of Jesus, was with the disciples on the day of Pentecost. She was one of those who received the Holy Ghost. If she was in the position that some put her in, then why did she need the Holy Ghost? Because she was a human who needed to be saved, just like you and me.

 

[Mungo]

the song in and of itself is not good or bad. it is how it comes across in meaning that puts it in one category or the other. let us look at this song and try and unravel what it cold mean.

Lyrics of the song in English:

Hail Mary,
full of grace,
the Lord is with thee;
blessed art thou among women,
and blessed is the fruit of thy womb,
Jesus.
Holy Mary,
Mother of God,
pray for us sinners,
now and at the hour of our death.
Amen.

first, we are calling out to mary where we should be calling out to God. for example which is better to call to mary to pray for us or call to God and get that which we ask for?

Why not do both?

second, mary was not full of grace but full of favor. there is a different. nowhere in scripture does it say mary was full of grace that i know of but it does say mary had the favor of God.

“In the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God to a city of Galilee named Nazareth, to a virgin betrothed to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin's name was Mary. And he came to her and said, "Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with you!"” (Lk 1:26-28)

third, any woman that does the will of God is blessed and God is not an person that favors one over another for all are equal in his eyes.

“Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit and she exclaimed with a loud cry, "Blessed are you among women” (Lk 1:41-42)

“For behold, henceforth all generations will call me blessed” Lk 1:47

Of which other woman is that true for?

Which other woman was the mother of Jesus?

fourth, mary has no more favor or power to pray for us then our neighbor does. for Jesus says in his word that i have no brothers, sisters, or mothers but those who do the will of my Father in heaven.

If she has no more power then you agree she has some power.

so to single out one person above another is idolatry.

That is a unbiblical.

"Amen, I say to you, among those born of women there has been none greater than John the Baptist; yet the least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he." (Mt 11:11).

Was Jesus commiting idolatry when he said that?

mungo in answer to your question of Why then did Paul ask people to pray for him (e.g. Eph 6:19-20, Col 4:3, 1Thess 5:25, 2 Thess 3:1, Heb 13:18) ?
Was Paul wrong to do that?

first off why would you pray to mary when there is the Father, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit?

Why did Paul ask others to pray for him?

You haven’t answered that.

what did mary do that deserves recognition? it is not by works we are saved and if you praise her for it then you are exalting her and the word teaches against exalting ourselves but to let God in his own time lift us up. the catholic church has turned mary into an idol and i don't think it was meant to but over the centuries it has turned into it.

The Catholic Church has not turned Mary into an idol. Catholics are quite clear that she is a creature not a godess.

all these verses you listed are asking for prayer but not praying to anyone.

And that is all we are doing with Mary. Asking for her prayers

“pray for us sinners,now and at the hour of our death.”

the way this song is put has great resemblance to the Lord's prayer. our Father who art in heaven(hail mary, Holy Mary, Mother of God,), hollowth be thy name (full of grace, blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb), pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death(this is the object of what you are asking for-in other words the prayer portion of the Lord's prayer).

The Lord’s prayer doesn’t mention the mother of God, or praying for us at the hour of our death.

The first part is a quote from scripture. Are you saying it is wrong to use scripture?

this is all exalting mary because the word teaches to pray in Jesus' name and you don't even do it here. this whole song is not about God although it does mention God. we are to exalt God in everything we do and this song does not do that.

God bless

Then Paul was wrong to ask others to pray for him.

Do you think it pleases Jesus or displeases him for us to give honour to his mother?

Do you think Jesus did not (and does not) give honour to his mother remembering the commandment “Honour your father and your mother” ?

This is not a zero sum game where giving honour to Mary takes something away from Jesus.

God did the greatest honour he could to any woman by asking her to become the mother of his son.

 

[aspen]

Why do people equate the term 'Mother of God' with divinity? As if Mary has to be greater than Jesus if she gave birth to Him? No one is teaching that belief. Also, Mary was not culpable, but she needed a Savior just like the rest of us. Lots of people have walked the Earth who are not culpable - mentally challenged, children, Adam and Eve - all need a Savior to erase original sin, but not everyone is culpable for their own behavior.

 

[neophyte]

Excellent, Mungo and aspen2., keep up the good work.

 

[7angels]

Why not do both?

what is the need to do both? isn't Jesus enough to deal with what you come up against that you need to pray to mary too?

“In the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God to a city of Galilee named Nazareth, to a virgin betrothed to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin's name was Mary. And he came to her and said, "Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with you!"” (Lk 1:26-28)

v 28 And he came to her and said, Hail, O favored one [[sup][w][/sup]endued with grace is the correct translation]! The Lord is with you!

not full of grace but endued with grace. what is being said is an angel came to her and said, “Greetings! The Lord is with you; you are very special to him.”

“Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit and she exclaimed with a loud cry, "Blessed are you among women” (Lk 1:41-42)
“For behold, henceforth all generations will call me blessed” Lk 1:47
Of which other woman is that true for?
Which other woman was the mother of Jesus?

elizabeth was referring to God choosing mary for this great honor of being the one to give birth to the savior of prophesy. you are putting the wrong emphasis on this. any woman God could of chosen for this privilege of being Christ's mother. we don't run around praying to abraham who was our father here on earth or Enoch who was so blessed of God that enoch was taken by God. we don't pray to enoch.

If she has no more power then you agree she has some power.

i have all the power that Christ has by blood covenant according to his word. why not pray to me???

That is a unbiblical.
"Amen, I say to you, among those born of women there has been none greater than John the Baptist; yet the least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he." (Mt 11:11).
Was Jesus commiting idolatry when he said that?

do you not realize what it is you have just said? using that scripture out of context you have just said that john the baptist is greater then Jesus. Jesus was born of a woman and yet was the greatest man to walk the earth. anyways matt 11:11 is referring to how the kingdom the heavens work. here is the definitions of idol:
1. any person or thing regarded with blind admiration, adoration, or devotion: for example Madame Curie had been her childhood idol.

this is exactly what is happening with mary the mother of Jesus

Why did Paul ask others to pray for him?
You haven’t answered that.

to come along side and support him in his hour of need.

The Catholic Church has not turned Mary into an idol. Catholics are quite clear that she is a creature not a godess.

what you are not understanding is that what was well intentioned thing has over time been corrupted. of course the church will not say this straight out because it will only hurt them. but you have statues of mary, you pray to her for guidance and direction, and ect. btw a snake is a creature and it too was worshiped along with hanna montana and many others.

And that is all we are doing with Mary. Asking for her prayers
“pray for us sinners,now and at the hour of our death.”

why would you pray to her anyways? she cannot keep you from sin? prayer cannot make anyone do what they don't want to do which is because of the free will God gave us and God will not override it. if you are doing it for yourself then why not go straight to the source instead of going through mary first? to me it sounds like you are putting Jesus second and mary first.

The Lord’s prayer doesn’t mention the mother of God, or praying for us at the hour of our death.
The first part is a quote from scripture. Are you saying it is wrong to use scripture?

misrepresenting scripture then yes. praying scripture is great but it says nothing about praying to mary for anything. the scripture is there for us to know our place and authority in God and to achieve victory over sin.

Then Paul was wrong to ask others to pray for him.
Do you think it pleases Jesus or displeases him for us to give honour to his mother?
Do you think Jesus did not (and does not) give honour to his mother remembering the commandment “Honour your father and your mother” ?
This is not a zero sum game where giving honour to Mary takes something away from Jesus.
God did the greatest honour he could to any woman by asking her to become the mother of his son.

there is a thin line between honoring and then when that honor turns to idolatry. do you give samson, abraham, king david, elisha, moses, isaiah, and ect the same honor? if not why? is mary blessed any more then the others? mary's willful obedience to God is one reason God chose her for the mother of Jesus. it was a reward from God. look at is 7:1-14. this is a double prophesy. it is a prophesy of Jesus being born and it was to be a sign to ahaz that what God had said will come to pass. what kind of a sign would it be to ahaz if he never saw the sign God gave him? by the time Jesus was born ahaz was already dead so that prophesy has to be referring to more then one virgin birth. so then there were 2 women born of a virgin. why not pray to the other virgin mother also?

i hope i have not confused you with my comments or explanations.

God bless