Sinless Perfection. Why do so many teach against what Jesus taught?

[Judge Hardcastle]

This is what happens in evangelical circles. The enemy whispers false doctrines that serve the flesh into the novice believer, then he thinks anything else must be false.

And so that makes it okay for you to do that, right?

 

[Episkopos]

And so that makes it okay for you to do that, right?

I have not received the mark that allows me to buy and sell in the religious marketplace. I speak the truth that very few can hear. So many are already owned by the deception.

 

[Judge Hardcastle]

By grace alone by faith alone. He added the "alone" because itching ears need more certainty.

Romans 4:6
6...to whom God credits righteousness apart from works

No itching ears here.
You're the one who has ignored righteousness "apart from works" to suit your desire to avoid the humility of not being righteousness enough to enter the kingdom on the basis of your righteousness.

 

[Judge Hardcastle]

I have not received the mark that allows me to buy and sell in the religious marketplace. I speak the truth that very few can hear. So many are already owned by the deception.

Your deception has already been exposed by the scriptures you ignore. You're fooling yourself.

 

[Episkopos]

That doctrine that you summarize formed a big turning in my understanding. I grew up in independent Bible churches and Baptist churches, both of which teach the doctrine that salvation by Christ is primarily the payment for our sin debt, and that we accept that payment by faith, but that we become forgiven sinners that should sin less and less as we grow on Christ (progressive sanctification). Further, this Baptist doctrine teaches that we will continue to sin to some extent, until we leave this earthly life and become instantly free of sin.

There are a whole set of "explanations" developed to interpret those verses that you refer to, such as positional truth categorizing that says that those verses describe how God sees you in your position as a child of God, through the "filter" of Chrisi's blood, not how you actually are.

On the other hand, there are other doctrinal systems that take those verses as present reality. The Wesleyan and many Pentecostal groups invented a second work of grace doctrine that says that after receiving the pardon for our sins, we are expected to reach a stage in which we achieve sinless perfection through a complete dedication to the Holy Spirit. Details of how this is done vary in the different groups, along with how much time this takes and at what point of failing to become sanctified or to maintain sanctification, a pardoned sinner might lose his salvation.

These two doctrinal lines are in competition so if one group hears you say something, even just a Bible quote, which echoes a phrase from the opposing doctrine, you will usually get a challenging accusation of supporting and teaching THAT doctrine.

About 45 years ago, I took a challenge seriously to accept the Bible for what it says, without the manufactured doctrines. At first, it seemed impossible. But God had mercy on my ignorance and opened my eyes to see that the Bible speaks in 2 realms, the spirit and the flesh. That resolves the confusion, because it is our inner person that is born again, not our body of flesh. Both groups are partly right and both are very wrong.

The problem with the "progressives" (sanctification) is that holiness doesn't work that way. And those who are not baptized in the Spirit will spiritualize away the truth of translation into Zion as just "positional" (meaning fictional).

Then there is all the fake pentecostalism....

It's a real mess.

 

[Judge Hardcastle]

View attachment 93133

Tell Cornelius.

 

[Judge Hardcastle]

The problem with the "progressives" (sanctification) is that holiness doesn't work that way.

For you it doesn't work. And that's probably because you have yet to be born again. You don't have faith in Christ's sacrifice for the forgiveness of sin and being reckoned as righteous. No one who has heard the gospel can be born again/saved without Christ's sacrifice.

 

[Judge Hardcastle]

And those who are not baptized in the Spirit will spiritualize away the truth of translation into Zion as just "positional" (meaning fictional).

Hebrews 9:24

Christ went into the heavenly tabernacle on our behalf, vicariously. Born again believers are not there literally.

Once again the Bible that you are unfamiliar with defeats your teachings.

You're entitled to make your own religion. But don't change what the Bible says. You're not entitled to do that.

 

[Judge Hardcastle]

Then there is all the fake pentecostalism....

Now.

It wasn't necessarily always like that.
They have no part of genuine Biblical Christianity.
They belong to your group...the unbelieving, fake, pretending group.

 

[Judge Hardcastle]

This is false. We are not to claim Jesus' sacrifice for ourselves. That is a selfish motivation.

He died for the sins of the whole world, but I'm not supposed to receive that for myself because that is selfish?

 

[Judge Hardcastle]

Instead we are to desire to suffer with Christ...be crucified with Him.

And you're going to start living the crucified life when?

 

[Judge Hardcastle]

We need the bible to communicate with others as well as inform the revelation.

Except the part about Christ's sacrifice being the propitiation for our sins, right?

 

[ThomasDGW]

Welcome to the forum Thomas.

About the blue, why stop here and tell us how it should be.

That was my summary. One group correctly says that we can and must stop sinning, but does not recognize that in the inner man, which died and was resurrected in Christ, we are in fact sinless and cannot sin, and the exhortation to stop sinning applies to the unregenerate flesh, through the power of the Holy Spirit. Thus they erroneously expect that thry can achieve a state in this life where the tendency to sin will be gone.

The other group correctly says that we will continue to struggle with sin in this mortal body until death, and that we SHOULD stop sinning, but does not recognize that in the inner man, which died and was resurrected in Christ, we are in fact sinless now, and we are able to stop the flesh from sinning through the power of the Holy Spirit. If we are content to continue to commit sins in the body, that is an indication that we do NOT have a resurrected inner man, that we have not been saved.

Both sides are partly correct, but both are very wrong.

 

[David1701]

The bible contains both the tree of Knowledge and the tree of Life..( the flesh and the spirit)

Eating the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil is what gave Adam and Eve a conscience (i.e. the ability to judge between good and evil, without relying upon God).

Eating the fruit of the tree of life would have granted them to become immortal; but, after they had sinned, this would have left them immortally evil, which is why God prevented them from accessing it.

These were literal trees, just as the rest of the early chapters of Genesis are literal.

 

[shepherdsword]

Eating the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil is what gave Adam and Eve a conscience (i.e. the ability to judge between good and evil, without relying upon God).y w

Eating the fruit of the tree of life would have granted them to become immortal; but, after they had sinned, this would have left them immortally evil, which is why God prevented them from accessing it.

These were literal trees, just as the rest of the early chapters of Genesis are literal.

I agree they were literal trees. However, they are also an allegory (just as literal Sarah and Hagar were for the law) for how we approach the bible. We can read the bible and just gain pharisaical knowledge that puffs up or read it and find life by fellowshipping with God's Spirit.

 

[Episkopos]

That was my summary. One group correctly says that we can and must stop sinning, but does not recognize that in the inner man, which died and was resurrected in Christ, we are in fact sinless and cannot sin, and the exhortation to stop sinning applies to the unregenerate flesh, through the power of the Holy Spirit. Thus they erroneously expect that thry can achieve a state in this life where the tendency to sin will be gone.

The other group correctly says that we will continue to struggle with sin in this mortal body until death, and that we SHOULD stop sinning, but does not recognize that in the inner man, which died and was resurrected in Christ, we are in fact sinless now, and we are able to stop the flesh from sinning through the power of the Holy Spirit. If we are content to continue to commit sins in the body, that is an indication that we do NOT have a resurrected inner man, that we have not been saved.

Both sides are partly correct, but both are very wrong.

And you are totally wrong. The inner man does not die. It is given resurrection life as the outer man is crucified. It is the outer man that must die. It is the husk that surrounds and imprisons the soul. (inner man). The sin nature is in the outer man. The inner man is created in the likeness of God. God only makes covenant with the inner man.

 

[Judge Hardcastle]

God only makes covenant with the inner man.

Hardly true:

Genesis 17:13
13My covenant in your flesh will be an everlasting covenant.

 

[Paul Christensen]

Personally, I've never heard a pastor use the term "sinless perfection." But whenever I have taught that Jesus said He takes away our sin, I get WARNINGS that I'm teaching "sinless perfection." Which denominations teach against sinless perfection? I know one pastor who does, but are there more? I have some of that pastors books for research on what not to teach, and I swear when I open them, demons seem to be flying off the pages. There are many forum members who also teach against "sinless perfection." Didn't Jesus say in Matthew 5:48 "Therefore you shall be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect." Also, in Revelation 22:11 look to see which category you are in, because there is a popular teaching about the body that says we will not stop sinning until after we die and receive our new bodies." Not according to this: "He who is unjust, let him be unjust still; he who is filthy, let him be filthy still; he who is righteous, let him be righteous still; he who is holy, let him be holy still.” Therefore, when you die, nothing changes. That doctrine about freedom from sin only when we receive new bodies is a doctrine of demons, because demons want you to keep sinning so you can receive the same punishment as they will be getting. They must like the company.

Both Paul and Peter taught we are dead to sin. Romans 6:5-7, 22; 1 Peter 2:24. John taught we cannot sin, 1 John 3:9; 1 John 5:18. John has also been misquoted with 1 John 1:8 which contradicts 1 John 3:9, and 1 John 1:9 that the blood of Jesus cleanses us from ALL UNRIGHTEOUSNESS. Those who want to justify their sin twist these scriptures backwards and believe 1 John 1:8 over 1 John 3:9, and 1 John 1:9. Look at 1 John 2:4 if you want to know what lie 1 John 1:8 is really saying, 4 He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 1 John 1 is written with a Semitic writing style. Verse 5 through 10 is a contrast between Light vs. Darkness. 1 John 1:6, 8 and 10 are all unsaved darkness. 1 John 1:9 is how to become a born again Christian ONCE, not over and over as you are a slave to sin. It is the same as Peter's Acts 2:38 "REPENT, ... and you will be given the gift of the Holy Spirit.

I teach that Jesus is the Author and Finisher of our faith.

What Jesus does as the Author of our faith is He takes away the worst type of sin (sins unto death) out of our sin nature, leaving it now clean of evil desires, John 15:3. And He does this instantaneously when He baptizes us with fire according to John the Baptist. This sinless state is called righteousness and is what 1 John 3 is all about.

What Jesus does as the Finisher of our faith takes a long time, not instantaneously. At the end of this process is when His work is complete, Phil. 1:6, and we are then perfect, the other name for holy. The process has to do with maturing each fruit of the Spirit and is found in 2 Peter 1:5-11. "5 But also for this very reason, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue, to virtue knowledge, 6 to knowledge self-control, to self-control perseverance, to perseverance godliness, 7 to godliness brotherly kindness, and to brotherly kindness love. 8 For if these things are yours and abound, you will be neither barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 For he who lacks these things is shortsighted, even to blindness, and has forgotten that he was cleansed from his old sins.

10 Therefore, brethren, be even more diligent to make your call and election sure, for if you do these things you will never stumble; 11 for so an entrance will be supplied to you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

To me "never stumble" means perfection, but it is a long time coming from when we were first made sinless of sins unto death. This is why I never put sinless and perfection together as "sinless perfection." On the narrow path toward salvation, sinlessness is at the beginning and perfection is at the end. Then and only then is there "sinless perfection" when the two are complete. Committing sins due to immature fruit are not sins unto death, but sins not unto death; however, maturing fruit is necessary for salvation. Otherwise, those branches that do not bear fruit are cast into the fire. John 15:1-4, “I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. 2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit. 3 You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. 4 Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me."

See also this common passage with the first two verses before it added for context and clarity:

Matthew 7:19-23
19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Therefore by their fruits you will know them. 21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

The simple reply is that Jesus doesn't actually take away our sin. We have a sinful flesh. That is why we have to die physically. Paul said that the flesh profits nothing. He also said that there is nothing good in him, that is, in his flesh. In that sense, we are still sinners. This is why Paul said, "By grace are we saved through faith [in Christ], not of ourselves, but is the gift of God; not of works lest any should boast." God reckons us as justified, not through any actual change in our sinful condition, but that our sinfulness is covered by the pure righteousness of Christ. This means that when God views us, He views us through Christ's righteousness, not our own. Our own righteousness is as filthy rags to God. We can't change that no matter what we try to do to avoid sinning. All that happens is that we remain a self-righteous sinner. But we trust in Christ by faith that although we are guilty of sin, we are acquitted because Jesus has taken our guilt and punishment for sin upon Himself, and given us His righteousness.

 

[Episkopos]

The simple reply is that Jesus doesn't actually take away our sin. We have a sinful flesh. That is why we have to die physically. Paul said that the flesh profits nothing. He also said that there is nothing good in him, that is, in his flesh. In that sense, we are still sinners. This is why Paul said, "By grace are we saved through faith [in Christ], not of ourselves, but is the gift of God; not of works lest any should boast." God reckons us as justified, not through any actual change in our sinful condition, but that our sinfulness is covered by the pure righteousness of Christ. This means that when God views us, He views us through Christ's righteousness, not our own. Our own righteousness is as filthy rags to God. We can't change that no matter what we try to do to avoid sinning. All that happens is that we remain a self-righteous sinner. But we trust in Christ by faith that although we are guilty of sin, we are acquitted because Jesus has taken our guilt and punishment for sin upon Himself, and given us His righteousness.

Or as Luther put it....a fresh covering of snow over a dunghill. You post has that same peculiar odour to it.

 

[David1701]

I agree they were literal trees. However, they are also an allegory (just as literal Sarah and Hagar were for the law) for how we approach the bible. We can read the bible and just gain pharisaical knowledge that puffs up or read it and find life by fellowshipping with God's Spirit.

Where does the Bible say that the tree of knowledge of good and evil is also an allegory?

You said that it represents the flesh, but the Bible does not say that (and the knowledge of good and evil (i.e. conscience) is not the flesh).

The tree of life points to the Lord Jesus Christ (it also represents wisdom).

To try to make this either "Pharisaical knowledge that puffs up", or finding "life by fellowshipping with God's Spirit" is a false dichotomy, because you are omitting finding godly knowledge, along with fellowshipping with God's Spirit. It's not "either, or"; but, "both, and".