Sinless Perfection. Why do so many teach against what Jesus taught?

[shepherdsword]

Wow
You butchered that verse!
John is not talking about sinless perfection.
You can't yank a verse out of its context and make it say what was never intended.
There are not '2 levels of sin'.
This passage is about salvation: period.
Thus, the 'sin unto death' is that sin which can never be forgiven: blasphemy of the Holy Ghost.
V 16.....he (Christ) shall give him (the brother who sinned) LIFE ( salvation) for them that sin not unto death (blasphemy of the H.G.)

No. You can not reach sinlessness in this life.
John is outlining that same dichotomy that Paul explained in Romans 7.
With my flesh I serve sin, but with my spirit I serve God.

The text was never meant to express sinless perfection but rather two different degrees of sin. The entire context IS about sin.

1 Jn 5:16-17

If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death,(level 2) he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto deathlevel 1) I do not say that he shall pray for it.

All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death.

Now, show how this isn't two levels of sin one unto death and one not unto death.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

It is a noble goal. But you just admitted it cannot be done.
Name just ONE person (not Christ) who was sinless, ever.

Yes, it can. Who told you it can't? Jesus was conceived with the seed of the Father. But Jesus made it so we can be born again. Then 1 John 3:9 says we cannot commit sins of lawlessness, which are sins unto death." After that He works on our sins not unto death until we are complete in Him. This is what Philippians 1:6 is about. Jesus was not the only sinless person, just the first of many brethren being conformed into the image of Christ. Romans 8:29

 

[1stCenturyLady]

Being sinless and then going onto perfection are biblical. If Jesus expected it, I believe it. You can have the last word about it if you wish. If someone doesn't want to believe perfection is possible, I don't wish to twist their arm about it.

Hey, sweetie. Write down the scriptures I'm sharing with Jim so you can share the word with those who were taught false doctrines about sin.

 

[JimKnox]

and @JimKnox

Jesus is the Author and Finisher of our two faiths. As the Author He cleanses the old sin nature making it clean with a healthy Spirit led conscience to not sin willfully again (sins unto death). As the Finisher of our second level of faith (Romans 1:17) Jesus works on the fruit of the Spirit as we abide in Him. John 15:1-4; 2 Peter 1:5-11 shows the process. And at the end of that process IN THIS LIFETIME we are perfect. Peter says, "we will never stumble."

I've never seen anything so convoluted in my Christian life.

I already answered this "sinless perfection" nonsense.

I am going to leave you in your darkness.

 

[marks]

The text was never meant to express sinless perfection but rather two different degrees of sin. The entire context IS about sin.

1 Jn 5:16-17

If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death,(level 2) he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto deathlevel 1) I do not say that he shall pray for it.

All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death.

Now, show how this isn't two levels of sin one unto death and one not unto death.

This verse says there is "a" sin unto death. That says to me there is only one.

Much love!

 

[TitusTwoWife]

Hey, sweetie. Write down the scriptures I'm sharing with Jim so you can share the word with those who were taught false doctrines about sin.

I will. Thanks

 

[JimKnox]

The text was never meant to express sinless perfection but rather two different degrees of sin. The entire context IS about sin.

1 Jn 5:16-17

If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death,(level 2) he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto deathlevel 1) I do not say that he shall pray for it.

All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death.

Now, show how this isn't two levels of sin one unto death and one not unto death.

I did show it but you promptly ignored me and then asked me to do it again.

Fugeddabowdit.

 

[JimKnox]

This verse says there is "a" sin unto death. That says to me there is only one.

Much love!

Correct.
And Jesus already stated what that one sin is; it is the blasphemy of the Holy Ghost.
It is the only sin that leads to death because it will not be forgiven in this life nor tge life to come.

There are not 2 levels of sin as some claim.
Never saw you claim it.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

Looks like two levels of sin here:

1 Jn 5:16-17
If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it. All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death.

Yes, there are. In fact, there are two's many times in our New Covenant. Romans 1:16-17 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek. 17 For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, “The just shall live by faith.” Hebrews 12:2 "Jesus is the AUTHOR and FINISHER of our (2) faiths.

The Roman Catholics still knew the apostles teaching on sin and named the two levels of sin - mortal sins (unto death), and venial sins (not unto death). The Reformationists did not bring the apostles teaching forward as they were suppose to, and named our transgressions "sin is sin." But they mixed up what is only cleansed from our past, to all willful (mortal) sin is cleansed "past, present and future." Only venial sins (immature fruit of the Spirit) are continually cleansed as we walk in the Spirit and not in the flesh. Revelation 3:1-3 "To Sardis, (the Reformation) ‘These things says He who has the seven Spirits of God and the seven stars: “I know your works, that you have a name that you are alive, but you are dead. 2 Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die, for I have not found your works perfect before God. 3 Remember therefore how you have received and heard; hold fast and repent. Therefore if you will not watch, I will come upon you as a thief, and you will not know what hour I will come upon you.

I would not call this two levels of sin.

if I get drunk (a sin) and get behind the wheel to drive home (a sin) and make it home alive, I have commited a sin not unto death

If I do the same 2 sins, and get killed on the way home. I have committed a sin unto death.

edited.

If my friends sees me get behind the wheel and I do not die. He has seen me commit a sin not leading to death

If he sees me get in the car and I die. He has seen me commit a sin leading to death

EG, He's not referring to physical death, but eternal death.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

Correct.
And Jesus already stated what that one sin is; it is the blasphemy of the Holy Ghost.
It is the only sin that leads to death because it will not be forgiven in this life nor tge life to come.

There are not 2 levels of sin as some claim.
Never saw you claim it.

@marks You only have to commit one sin unto death to die eternally. Like murder.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

I've never seen anything so convoluted in my Christian life.

I already answered this "sinless perfection" nonsense.

I am going to leave you in your darkness.

I don't doubt it. Most Protestant churches, except through John Wesley, have their beginning doctrine from either John Calvin or Martin Luther. If that's all you heard, then you need to stay and leave the darkness to those who began it.

 

[marks]

@marks You only have to commit one sin unto death to die eternally. Like murder.

You are dancing around the truth, not a good look for you who claim sinlessness, though falsely.

There is A sin unto death. Not, 'pick one'. That would be to attempt to conform the word of God to your liking. Not good!

 

[1stCenturyLady]

You are dancing around the truth, not a good look for you who claim sinlessness, though falsely.

There is A sin unto death. Not, 'pick one'. That would be to attempt to conform the word of God to your liking. Not good!

1 John 5:16-17 is about praying for each other (who claim to be Christians). If you are thinking it is a physical death like suicide, you're wrong. So what sins would a brother commit and still be alive that we are commanded not to pray for them? Name a sin 'not unto death.'

 

[marks]

1 John 5:16-17 is about praying for each other (who claim to be Christians). If you are thinking it is a physical death like suicide, you're wrong. So what sins would a brother commit and still be alive that we are commanded not to pray for them? Name a sin 'not unto death.'

No, you are still dancing.

There is a sin unto death. A sin. Not, a kind of sin of which are many, or some such. A sin. You take what the Bible says as singular and you endeavor to make it plural, as if there were a category of "a sin unto death", trying to change the Word of God into something it's not, intentionally.

There you have the truth of the matter. Intentional sin. Trust in Jesus.

 

[TitusTwoWife]

No, you are still dancing.

There is a sin unto death. A sin. Not, a kind of sin of which are many, or some such. A sin. You take what the Bible says as singular and you endeavor to make it plural, as if there were a category of "a sin unto death", trying to change the Word of God into something it's not, intentionally.

There you have the truth of the matter. Intentional sin. Trust in Jesus.

What are your thoughts on 1 John 5:17?

1 John 5:17

King James Version
17 All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

No, you are still dancing.

There is a sin unto death. A sin. Not, a kind of sin of which are many, or some such. A sin. You take what the Bible says as singular and you endeavor to make it plural, as if there were a category of "a sin unto death", trying to change the Word of God into something it's not, intentionally.

There you have the truth of the matter. Intentional sin. Trust in Jesus.

Yes, intentional sin is willful sin and the category of sin unto death. You cannot break a commandment of God unintentionally. They all fall under the category of willful sin. Hebrews 10:26-31.

 

[marks]

What are your thoughts on 1 John 5:17?

1 John 5:17

King James Version
17 All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death.

I take it the same as the other passage, paying attention to all the grammatical aspects of the passage.

And no, I don't know what that sin is.

What I do know is this. The letters to the Gentiles are very clear about sin. All that is not of faith is sin. All. Even though no one sinned the same as Adam did, still, everyone died, because everyone sinned. Everyone. And there is no record of "what" sins. They sinned, so they died.

If you were to follow 1st cent's doctrine on these two levels of sin, that unintentional sins are OK, while intentional sins kill you again, you'll find that intentional sins in the OT were not always punished by death. The thief had to pay back 4 times over. Do you steal by accident? The liar also would bear the punishment they sought to inflict on others with their lies. That's not unintentional.

There's more, but the thing is, if you go deeper into this, the inconsistencies show up.

Much love!

 

[marks]

Yes, intentional sin is willful sin and the category of sin unto death. You cannot break a commandment of God unintentionally. They all fall under the category of willful sin. Hebrews 10:26-31.

Except this isn't consistent with the OT Law upon which you base your division of sins. Fully intentional sins could still be forgiven.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

I take it the same as the other passage, paying attention to all the grammatical aspects of the passage.

And no, I don't know what that sin is.

What I do know is this. The letters to the Gentiles are very clear about sin. All that is not of faith is sin. All. Even though no one sinned the same as Adam did, still, everyone died, because everyone sinned. Everyone. And there is no record of "what" sins. They sinned, so they died.

If you were to follow 1st cent's doctrine on these two levels of sin, that unintentional sins are OK, while intentional sins kill you again, you'll find that intentional sins in the OT were not always punished by death. The thief had to pay back 4 times over. Do you steal by accident? The liar also would bear the punishment they sought to inflict on others with their lies. That's not unintentional.

There's more, but the thing is, if you go deeper into this, the inconsistencies show up.

Much love!

It's because they required justice to the injured.

 

[marks]

It's because they required justice to the injured.

Dancing. You must know this.