Sinless Perfection. Why do so many teach against what Jesus taught?

[Lizbeth]

When I saw the tone change, all I wrote about was about Paul's writing about Peter who had no way to defend himself. Not one word of the issues of the debate between you two. That is between you all. And I don't even know what those issues were, but my example of Paul made someone turn into a braggart. The best thing to do is what you did; stop responding at all. I didn't either, and assumptions were made for my silence. That's on them.

20 “I do not pray for these alone, but also for those who will believe in Me through their word; 21 that they all may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You; that they also may be one in Us, that the world may believe that You sent Me. 22 And the glory which You gave Me I have given them, that they may be one just as We are one: 23 I in them, and You in Me; that they may be made perfect in one, and that the world may know that You have sent Me, and have loved them as You have loved Me.

If anyone's tone changed it shouldn't be surprising when it's because Paul is being called into question.

You seem to be very concerned about Peter being rebuked by Paul, as if that was such a terrible thing and he needs defending. Keep in mind the Jews in those days were trained up in the word of God and well used to rebuke....they weren't sensitive and politically correct like western society today. Even the Jews of today are still fairly rough and tumble and frank in the way they talk to each other. So don't be worrying about Peter.

What Peter did with his actions of refusing to eat with Gentiles was to cause division in the church....it was not just insulting but it meant not having communion with Gentile believers either. It would have had the effect of rebuilding the wall of separation between Jew and Gentile that the cross had abolished...........and influencing others to do the same. So no small potatoes there. Paul with his Nazarite vows harmed no one and nothing.....I think it was done for expediency's sake because the unbelieving Jews were accusing him of teaching believing Jews to disobey the Law and he didn't want them to have that as a stumbling block to receiving Christ. What Peter did was not for the sake of expediency but it was dissimulation out of fear of the unbelieving Jews.

 

[Marvelloustime]

I already showed you what he said to me when i preached the dire need to BELEIVE ON JESUS to an atheist .
HEY if that aint good enough for you , THEN something is dead wron g .
See i think you probably already believe a heavy chunk of inclsuvism .
Maybe not as much as epi , but you are surely glued to him . Something went wrong sister .
SO all i can do now is
remind you to repent from even the mindset that GOD called you , to be a teacher .
THAT IS PRIDE sister . all the way that is pride . you stepped into an office MEANT ONLY for the man .
THEN you actually beleived it was GOD who told you it was okay and who showed you where pual went wrong .
REALLY . whats next . i mean we can do this with any sin . THEY DO IT WITH HOMOSEXUALITY
And i am sure you are NOT PRO that . But we cannot pick and choose what sins to cast out and what sins to hold onto .
This too is why i am so hated by both sides , the protestant and the catholic
and the liberal and the conservative . cause i expose their errors . i dont pick and choose
I expose all errors and shall continue to remind all that JESUS aint no minstir of ANY sin
NOR THE SIN OF UNBELIEF either . watch out . PRIDE has a hold on you . And it will be your ruin
if you cast it not off . YOU can start afresh . I aint condmening you , I am simply warning you .

@amigo de christo

 

[Marvelloustime]

I already showed you what he said to me when i preached the dire need to BELEIVE ON JESUS to an atheist .
HEY if that aint good enough for you , THEN something is dead wron g .
See i think you probably already believe a heavy chunk of inclsuvism .
Maybe not as much as epi , but you are surely glued to him . Something went wrong sister .
SO all i can do now is
remind you to repent from even the mindset that GOD called you , to be a teacher .
THAT IS PRIDE sister . all the way that is pride . you stepped into an office MEANT ONLY for the man .
THEN you actually beleived it was GOD who told you it was okay and who showed you where pual went wrong .
REALLY . whats next . i mean we can do this with any sin . THEY DO IT WITH HOMOSEXUALITY
And i am sure you are NOT PRO that . But we cannot pick and choose what sins to cast out and what sins to hold onto .
This too is why i am so hated by both sides , the protestant and the catholic
and the liberal and the conservative . cause i expose their errors . i dont pick and choose
I expose all errors and shall continue to remind all that JESUS aint no minstir of ANY sin
NOR THE SIN OF UNBELIEF either . watch out . PRIDE has a hold on you . And it will be your ruin
if you cast it not off . YOU can start afresh . I aint condmening you , I am simply warning you .

Yup. @amigo de christo

 

[Marvelloustime]

Speaking OF this HOLY SPIRIT .
I sure dont see it at work in many at all .
I see no spiritual discernment in many .
YOU might wanna go and do some examining of your own self .
take it all the way back
to the time you so called BELIEVE GOD TOLD YOU , YOU were a teacher .
THEN showed you how wrong paul and others were .
THAT did NOT COME of GOD . PRIDE sister . that will be your ruin
and it is why you now gather with men like epi .
I do not see any spiritual discernment in you . Now i say that not to condemn you
but to warn you . PRIDE was the downfall of lucifer
and PRIDE is the downfall of man and of woman .
SO rather than trying to find ways around what paul and others wrote .
TRY BELIEVING IT for a change .

@amigo de christo

 

[Marvelloustime]

I dont heed professor Unbelief . that makes void the dire necessity to First BELIEVE ON JESUS .
And professor epi even goes after t hose who remind an atheist of his dire need TO BELIEVE ON JESUS .
Kinda odd dont ya think .
The last time i checked when the jailor ran in to paul and silas and asked but sirs what must I DO
to be saved . Silas did not first say HEY you must believe on JESUS and then paul call silas a RELIGOUS extremist .
NO MAM and h ighly wise so called teacheress
THEY actually preached the dire need to beleive on JESUS to him and TO his household . good thing epi was not in prison with them .
HE had called both pual and silas RELGIOUS extremists . Oopsy we got us a false gospel being sold by epi .
SO put that in your cup of tea and take a good long drink of it .

@amigo de christo

 

[amigo de christo]

Why do you keep pressing people to stay on milk? Is it because you wouldn't understand the meat? Stay on milk if you like, but don't encourage others to stay stunted also.

i was long warning folks about such . but one who fails to admit that one must FIRST believe on JESUS
is one that believes a false gospel .
And inclusivism is a false one all right .
Never suckle from it . In fact go to and behold what is occuring .
As now they are merging all religoins under a beleif they serve the same God a christain does .
Now one side presents this by a means of pro paliestine
while the other a means of pro israel .
You would marvel if you knew how wide spread this has become .
And it aint just in the false religoins its in christendom as well .
And one side presents us social justice
the other presents us a form like it but suited to fit the conservative side .
Oh they are all being set up .
Way back in years long gone , around two thousand it was already
growing . IT would take about eighteen years to double to right over fifty percent
and then only three years to hit right at seventy percent .
AND would you LIKE TO KNOW what it is that chrisetndom beleives .
That way back in two thousand h ad climbed arleady to about twenty five percent of those polled .
And then in twenty eighteen again a poll was made and it was a staggering fifty percent .
And in only three years in twenty and twenty one had leaped up to about seventy percent .
WOULD you like to know the lie .
That GOD is basically okay with all religoins . if basically they so called loved God and their neigbor .
Talk about a delusion . THE false religoins NEVER DID LOVE GOD
they do not LOVE GOD . if t hey did they had repented to BELIEVE on HE who GOD did send .
folks are really beginning to bleieve there is just not a necceisty to have to BELIEVE IN JESUS

 

[amigo de christo]

Why do you keep pressing people to stay on milk? Is it because you wouldn't understand the meat? Stay on milk if you like, but don't encourage others to stay stunted also.

i was long warning folks about such . but one who fails to admit that one must FIRST believe on JESUS
is one that believes a false gospel .
And inclusivism is a false one all right .
Never suckle from it . In fact go to and behold what is occuring .
As now they are merging all religoins under a beleif they serve the same God a christain does .
Now one side presents this by a means of pro paliestine
while the other a means of pro israel .
You would marvel if you knew how wide spread this has become .
And it aint just in the false religoins its in christendom as well .
And one side presents us social justice
the other presents us a form like it but suited to fit the conservative side .
Oh they are all being set up .
Way back in years long gone , around two thousand it was already
growing . IT would take about eighteen years to double to right over fifty percent
and then only three years to hit right at seventy percent .
AND would you LIKE TO KNOW what it is that chrisetndom beleives .
That way back in two thousand h ad climbed arleady to about twenty five percent of those polled .
And then in twenty eighteen again a poll was made and it was a staggering fifty percent .
And in only three years in twenty and twenty one had leaped up to about seventy percent .
WOULD you like to know the lie .
That GOD is basically okay with all religoins . if basically they so called loved God and their neigbor .
Talk about a delusion . THE false religoins NEVER DID LOVE GOD
they do not LOVE GOD . if t hey did they had repented to BELIEVE on HE who GOD did send .
folks are really beginning to bleieve there is just not a necceisty to have to BELIEVE IN JESUS

 

[Judge Hardcastle]

we are also past believing on Jesus at some point in your life as all there is if you want to be holy.

I think I know what you are saying. You appear to be making the same mistake the Galatians made.

Galatians 3:3,5
3Are you so foolish? After beginning by means of the Spirit, are you now trying to finish by means of the flesh? a
5So again I ask, does God give you his Spirit and work miracles among you by the works of the law, or by your believing what you heard?

You don't move from faith in Christ to works of obedience to finish what God has done and is doing in you.

That doesn't mean faith doesn't have to work. It means the agent of transformation is faith. The same faith by which you were credited righteousness before you did any work.

 

[Marvelloustime]

i was long warning folks about such . but one who fails to admit that one must FIRST believe on JESUS
is one that believes a false gospel .
And inclusivism is a false one all right .
Never suckle from it . In fact go to and behold what is occuring .
As now they are merging all religoins under a beleif they serve the same God a christain does .
Now one side presents this by a means of pro paliestine
while the other a means of pro israel .
You would marvel if you knew how wide spread this has become .
And it aint just in the false religoins its in christendom as well .
And one side presents us social justice
the other presents us a form like it but suited to fit the conservative side .
Oh they are all being set up .
Way back in years long gone , around two thousand it was already
growing . IT would take about eighteen years to double to right over fifty percent
and then only three years to hit right at seventy percent .
AND would you LIKE TO KNOW what it is that chrisetndom beleives .
That way back in two thousand h ad climbed arleady to about twenty five percent of those polled .
And then in twenty eighteen again a poll was made and it was a staggering fifty percent .
And in only three years in twenty and twenty one had leaped up to about seventy percent .
WOULD you like to know the lie .
That GOD is basically okay with all religoins . if basically they so called loved God and their neigbor .
Talk about a delusion . THE false religoins NEVER DID LOVE GOD
they do not LOVE GOD . if t hey did they had repented to BELIEVE on HE who GOD did send .
folks are really beginning to bleieve there is just not a necceisty to have to BELIEVE IN JESUS

@amigo de christo

 

[1stCenturyLady]

ITS all a well cloaked lie to be presented as though its a walk by which man can attain . WHAT MAN CAN NEVER ATTAIN
without FAITH IN JESUS CHRIST .

Don't you know that you and epi are both saying the same thing? Epi is not talking about faith in Jesus and Allah as you implied. The difference is you teach what to believe, and epi teaches how. I am a teacher of how also.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

I think I know what you are saying. You appear to be making the same mistake the Galatians made.

Galatians 3:3,5
3Are you so foolish? After beginning by means of the Spirit, are you now trying to finish by means of the flesh? a
5So again I ask, does God give you his Spirit and work miracles among you by the works of the law, or by your believing what you heard?

You don't move from faith in Christ to works of obedience to finish what God has done and is doing in you.

That doesn't mean faith doesn't have to work. It means the agent of transformation is faith. The same faith by which you were credited righteousness before you did any work.

There is no flesh to it. It is all Spirit who works through our conscience. You do what comes naturally. Works is doing something in opposition to your nature, therefore, is the opposite of doing what comes naturally. It is forced. See the difference? You said we were "credited righteousness." Does that make us righteous that can be seen by others? Or is it some invisible cloak of righteousness that covers our sinning?

The Galatians were being bombarded by Jewish Christians who told them they must be circumcised in the flesh to be saved.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

i was long warning folks about such . but one who fails to admit that one must FIRST believe on JESUS
is one that believes a false gospel .
And inclusivism is a false one all right .
Never suckle from it . In fact go to and behold what is occuring .
As now they are merging all religoins under a beleif they serve the same God a christain does .
Now one side presents this by a means of pro paliestine
while the other a means of pro israel .
You would marvel if you knew how wide spread this has become .
And it aint just in the false religoins its in christendom as well .
And one side presents us social justice
the other presents us a form like it but suited to fit the conservative side .
Oh they are all being set up .
Way back in years long gone , around two thousand it was already
growing . IT would take about eighteen years to double to right over fifty percent
and then only three years to hit right at seventy percent .
AND would you LIKE TO KNOW what it is that chrisetndom beleives .
That way back in two thousand h ad climbed arleady to about twenty five percent of those polled .
And then in twenty eighteen again a poll was made and it was a staggering fifty percent .
And in only three years in twenty and twenty one had leaped up to about seventy percent .
WOULD you like to know the lie .
That GOD is basically okay with all religoins . if basically they so called loved God and their neigbor .
Talk about a delusion . THE false religoins NEVER DID LOVE GOD
they do not LOVE GOD . if t hey did they had repented to BELIEVE on HE who GOD did send .
folks are really beginning to bleieve there is just not a necceisty to have to BELIEVE IN JESUS

Don't you think we've already been there, done that? How do you think we became born again of the Spirit if we hadn't FIRST BELIEVED ON JESUS!

NOW WHAT? That's what epi and I teach. You're an evangilist and deal with the unsaved who can only handle milk. That's your ministry. But epi and I know that we must grow from milk to meat; otherwise, Jesus will end up saying, "I never knew you."

 

[JimKnox]

Where are you getting the idea that we can never stop sinning or that it's a good thing to be in a state of sin and be aware of it?

I was initially taught the same thing. That we simply sin constantly and there's no escaping it. But what is sin? In 1 John, it says sin is transgression of the law. It's specific. Its not as if you sinned the moment you woke up this morning or as you read this message.

There are so many things we do in our humanity that simply aren't sin. There's so much false theology that makes sin a default state that it defeats the hope of overcoming sin ever. I don't buy into it anymore but I had to start reading Scripture like a child again.

2 Timothy 3:17
King James Version
17 That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

Colossians 1:28
King James Version
28 Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:

Ephesians 4:13
King James Version
13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

2 Corinthians 13:11
King James Version
11 Finally, brethren, farewell. Be perfect, be of good comfort, be of one mind, live in peace; and the God of love and peace shall be with you.

Is your flesh perfect now?

 

[TitusTwoWife]

Is your flesh perfect now?

No. I never said it was. Perfection is the goal.

 

[JimKnox]

Looks like two levels of sin here:

1 Jn 5:16-17
If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it. All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death.

Wow
You butchered that verse!
John is not talking about sinless perfection.
You can't yank a verse out of its context and make it say what was never intended.
There are not '2 levels of sin'.
This passage is about salvation: period.
Thus, the 'sin unto death' is that sin which can never be forgiven: blasphemy of the Holy Ghost.
V 16.....he (Christ) shall give him (the brother who sinned) LIFE ( salvation) for them that sin not unto death (blasphemy of the H.G.)

No. You can not reach sinlessness in this life.
John is outlining that same dichotomy that Paul explained in Romans 7.
With my flesh I serve sin, but with my spirit I serve God.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

Yes.


Yes.

As long as we are believing in and relying on Christ for the forgiveness of sin, the completed but ongoing ministry of Christ before the Father in the heavenly tabernacle continually provides forgiveness and cleansing for our sin.

For the born again believing person, Christ is interceding for them, not condeming them.


Romans 8:31-34
31What, then, shall we say in response to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us? 32He who did not spare his own Son, but gave him up for us all—how will he not also, along with him, graciously give us all things? 33Who will bring any charge against those whom God has chosen? It is God who justifies. 34Who then is the one who condemns? No one. Christ Jesus who died—more than that, who was raised to life—is at the right hand of God and is also interceding for us.

Hebrews 7:24-25
24because Jesus lives forever, he has a permanent priesthood. 25Therefore he is able to save completely c those who come to God through him, because he always lives to intercede for them.

I do not agree with your second yes. It was to my: "2. Provide no condemnation for our past, present and future sins?"

It you murdered someone in the future, you will receive no condemnation? My question would be, how, if you cannot commit sins of lawlessness. 1 John 3:9.

Romans 8:31-34 is the same as John 3:16. Jesus died for the sins of the whole world. But the difference between the Old Covenant sacrifices and that of Jesus is He cleanses our sin nature, making it clean. The sins of the past do not keep getting repeated year after year as those under the Law of Moses experienced trying to keep the laws they memorized with a sin nature in opposition to them. Therefore, it was only necessary to forgive our past sins of lawlessness. This is why it is foolish to try and change how God views sin for the past 3,500 years ago, to what incompetent reformers did just 500 years ago, saying "sin is sin." Not all sins are "sins unto death." Paul said in Romans 6 at the end that "the wages of sin is death." But John said in 1 John 5:17 All unrighteousness is sin, and there is sin not leading to death. So whose right? Which sins lead to death? All or none? Don't ask the Reformers, because they obviously didn't know. Luther writes to break commandments boldly, not realizing that only PAST broken commandments are cleansed, not present or future. Why, because there is no more sacrifice for them. Jesus already died for your past sins and cleansed them from the source - the old sin nature. If you willfully sin again, Jesus is not dying again. BUT, His first sacrifice will continually cleanse sin not unto death as long as you are walking in the light. Those are merely missing the mark unintentionally. Breaking a commandment is in full knowledge and willful. See why you can't follow the Reformers misleading doctrines?

 

[JimKnox]

No. I never said it was. Perfection is the goal.

It is a noble goal. But you just admitted it cannot be done.
Name just ONE person (not Christ) who was sinless, ever.

 

[JimKnox]

The bible says...all have sinned (past tense). But modern (un)believers ignore all the other verses that talk about how evil ONGOING sin is.

So then it's on the (un)believers to find a verse that says...ALL WILL SIN. (future tense). It doesn't exist. So that should silence the unbelief. But it doesn't because of dishonesty...stacking up even more sins on each other making a person worse and worse in God's eyes. Adding sin to sin as Isaiah says.
The very beginning of an attitude that God accepts is honesty.

But that kind of honesty is lacking in (un)believers...because it exposes the unbelief held by people who want to be justified by Christ IN their sins.

Did your Bible omit Roman 7?
What about 1 John 1:8 ? It makes your doctrine a lie because it says if you say you have no sin you are a liar.
The same is true of 1 John 1:10. His word is not even IN you if you teach that one can be sinless.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

No. I never said it was. Perfection is the goal.

and @JimKnox

Jesus is the Author and Finisher of our two faiths. As the Author He cleanses the old sin nature making it clean with a healthy Spirit led conscience to not sin willfully again (sins unto death). As the Finisher of our second level of faith (Romans 1:17) Jesus works on the fruit of the Spirit as we abide in Him. John 15:1-4; 2 Peter 1:5-11 shows the process. And at the end of that process IN THIS LIFETIME we are perfect. Peter says, "we will never stumble."

 

[TitusTwoWife]

It is a noble goal. But you just admitted it cannot be done.
Name just ONE person (not Christ) who was sinless, ever.

Being sinless and then going onto perfection are biblical. If Jesus expected it, I believe it. You can have the last word about it if you wish. If someone doesn't want to believe perfection is possible, I don't wish to twist their arm about it.