Sinless Perfection. Why do so many teach against what Jesus taught?

[marks]

I consider the claim of the born again person to be sinless to be on the opposite extreme of claiming that one is still a sinner. While both can be explained, I think it unwise to take either position.

At the end of the day, we simply are not fit judges of ourselves. We don't know our own selves well enough, and we are not without partiality.

1 Corinthians 4:3-5 KJV
3) But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged of you, or of man's judgment: yea, I judge not mine own self.
4) For I know nothing by myself; yet am I not hereby justified: but he that judgeth me is the Lord.
5) Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God.

Much love!

 

[Lizbeth]

the irony is palpable. I have no clue why you think you have any spiritual understanding beyond your embrace of new age thinking. I think you are confusing your own spiritualized understanding based on new age deceptions with being spiritual in Christ which requires a double wisdom...in things both temporal and eternal.

Find until you seek?... such is the foolishness you preach. Spiritualized nonsense.

What I teach is from an actual connection to God, that people don't realize still exists because of al the vain opinions. So they can't tell what is real from what is imagined.

You're twisting my words, but it's a waste of time to try and sort you out.

 

[TitusTwoWife]

1 Peter 4:1-2

New King James Version
Christ’s Example to Be Followed
4 Therefore, since Christ suffered [a]for us in the flesh, arm yourselves also with the same mind, for he who has suffered in the flesh has ceased from sin, 2 that he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh for the lusts of men, but for the will of God.

The idea of not sinning only sounds crazy because of modern unbelief and false traditions.

 

[Judge Hardcastle]

1 Peter 4:1-2

New King James Version
Christ’s Example to Be Followed
4 Therefore, since Christ suffered [a]for us in the flesh, arm yourselves also with the same mind, for he who has suffered in the flesh has ceased from sin, 2 that he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh for the lusts of men, but for the will of God.

The idea of not sinning only sounds crazy because of modern unbelief and false traditions.

This does not mean you can never sin again. It does mean there are things you will not struggle with anymore. For example, the sin of adultery that the OP used to struggle with. As we mature in Christ various sins that we once battled with become conquered and powerless. I know a Christian for whom fits of rage was a besetting sin. Not anymore. The temptation to rage is not even an issue for him these days. But, nonetheless, he must be on guard for it is when you think you are standing that is when you may fall. No one should ever boast but rather be humble and thankful for where Christ has brought them. Boasting of having arrived is very dangerous.

 

[TitusTwoWife]

This does not mean you can never sin again.

You may always choose to sin. But 1 Peter 4:1-2 does clearly mean that we can stop sinning while in this lifetime. That is the goal. We put on knowledge, brotherly affection, virtue and the like so we never stumble.

There are so many theological traditions and sayings that can prevent us from simply believing what is written in Scripture. But we should just simply believe it at face value and go from there.

Ephesians 4:13
King James Version
13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

 

[Judge Hardcastle]

Now don't return with 1 John 1:8 which is like those in Romans 7:14-25 who are still in the flesh, but think they aren't. In other words, before they were born again of the Spirit. There were many in John's congregation, as in every congregation, who are not true Christians yet and still need to test themselves.

I want bring your attention to Galatians 5:5

by faith we eagerly await through the Spirit the hope of righteousness.

The righteousness we hope for is the righteousness we will walk in when our bodies are redeemed at the resurrection and we enter physically into the kingdom of God.

It's a hope because we don't have it yet.

Romans 8:24-25
24For in this hope we were saved; but hope that is seen is no hope at all. Who hopes for what he can already see? 25But if we hope for what we do not yet see, we wait for it patiently.

 

[Judge Hardcastle]

You may always choose to sin. But 1 Peter 4:1-2 does clearly mean that we can stop sinning while in this lifetime. That is the goal. We put on knowledge, brotherly affection, virtue and the like so we never stumble.

There are so many theological traditions and sayings that can prevent us from simply believing what is written in Scripture. But we should just simply believe it at face value and go from there.

Ephesians 4:13
King James Version
13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

As usual in Christian discussions the disconnect is in the meaning of 'stop sinning'. Believers can and will 'stop sinning'. That does not mean you will never sin again. That means you can indeed have victory over various sins. I would warn Christians, especially fairly new Christians, that the absence of the struggle with sin can mean you are simply untested, not victorious over sin. I would go so far as to say that the absence of a humble spirit regarding the matter probably signifies a person is untested, not victorious over sin.

 

[TitusTwoWife]

As usual in Christian discussions the disconnect is in the meaning of 'stop sinning'. Believers can and will 'stop sinning'. That does not mean you will never sin again.

I think its what we do and intend right now before God matters. Although if we don't believe we won't ever stop sinning in the future, we probably won't.

God wants our whole heart. True worship is offering ourselves as living sacrifices. Loving God all the time, obeying Him all the time. And if this is our desire, we can do way better than just avoiding sin. We can walk in biblical love in action and in truth. We can walk in patience, joy, and self-control.

 

[Episkopos]

This does not mean you can never sin again. It does mean there are things you will not struggle with anymore. For example, the sin of adultery that the OP used to struggle with. As we mature in Christ various sins that we once battled with become conquered and powerless. I know a Christian for whom fits of rage was a besetting sin. Not anymore. The temptation to rage is not even an issue for him these days. But, nonetheless, he must be on guard for it is when you think you are standing that is when you may fall. No one should ever boast but rather be humble and thankful for where Christ has brought them. Boasting of having arrived is very dangerous.

You are speaking of being weaned from the flesh. This is an important aspect of obedience to Christ that should take place over time. It is an OT standard that has great value in the life of a believer. If we are not present with the Lord by the Spirit then we should still do all to be accepted by Him.

But the true victory over all sin is by the power of the cross of Christ that crucifies the outer man sin nature. The husk of the outer man is broken so that we can be covered by Christ.

 

[TitusTwoWife]

I would go so far as to say that the absence of a humble spirit regarding the matter probably signifies a person is untested, not victorious over sin.

If we're truly humble, we'll repent from sin. Not just be honest sinners. It's good to acknowledge our sins. Its not good to stay stuck in them.

 

[Lizbeth]

I think its what we do and intend right now before God matters. Although if we don't believe we won't ever stop sinning in the future, we probably won't.

God wants our whole heart. True worship is offering ourselves as living sacrifices. Loving God all the time, obeying Him all the time. And if this is our desire, we can do way better than just avoiding sin. We can walk in biblical love in action and in truth. We can walk in patience, joy, and self-control.

In other words walk in the Spirit.

 

[GRACE ambassador]

I consider the claim of the born again person to be sinless to be on the opposite extreme of claiming that one is still a sinner. While both can be explained, I think it unwise to take either position.

Precious friend, God's Precious Word Of Truth, Rightly
Divided, Does, In Biblical Fact, Show us Both positions, eh?:

Is there not a LARGE Difference between "destruction of the sinful flesh,..."

And: Rightly Divided (2 Timothy 2:15 AV) From “Things That Differ!" (BBS)

"...salvation of the sinLESS spirit" ( Both In 1 Corinthians 5:5 And 1 Corinthians 3:14-15 AV) ,
under GRACE!

Note: Hebrews is "written To the Jews" Not The Body Of CHRIST, Today, Under
GRACE ( = Romans Through Philemon AV)

Wise to take a Bible position, eh?

-----------
And, precious friend(s), Please Be Very Richly Encouraged and Edified
In The Lord Jesus Christ and In His Precious Word Of Truth, Rightly
Divided:

The Bible: The BIG Picture

Amen.

 

[Judge Hardcastle]

If we're truly humble, we'll repent from sin. Not just be honest sinners. It's good to acknowledge our sins. Its not good to stay stuck in them.

Don't you realize that all 'sinning' born again believers are 'sinless' between the times they sin just as you are?

 

[TitusTwoWife]

Don't you realize that all 'sinning' born again believers are 'sinless' between the times they sin just as you are?

Yeah. It's almost as if sin isn't a default state or inevitable.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

I want bring your attention to Galatians 5:5

by faith we eagerly await through the Spirit the hope of righteousness.

The righteousness we hope for is the righteousness we will walk in when our bodies are redeemed at the resurrection and we enter physically into the kingdom of God.

It's a hope because we don't have it yet.

Romans 8:24-25
24For in this hope we were saved; but hope that is seen is no hope at all. Who hopes for what he can already see? 25But if we hope for what we do not yet see, we wait for it patiently.

What Paul is speaking of in Romans 8:24-25 is the redemption of our dying bodies, but that has nothing to do with being righteous now.

1 John 3:7 "7 Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous." John is speaking of those who have been born again of the Spirit. That also does not have to do with our body, but of our sin nature that Jesus removes our sin from making it clean, John 15:3

 

[marks]

Ephesians 4:13
King James Version
13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

While many see the use of "perfect" in these places as referring to "moral excellence", or something similar, in fact that is not the particular meaning of the word used here. This is "complete", "mature", "finished", like that.

Jesus said in the Sermon on the Mount, "be ye perfect, as your Father in heaven is perfect". When you look at the context, it's about not loving the ones who love you only, but to be complete and mature in your love for others, loving even those who hate you.
Much love!

 

[1stCenturyLady]

Then you don't know if you still sin. You just haven't in a while. Please know that's true of all born again Christians. The length of time between offenses is hardly the criteria for not sinning anymore.

And besides all that, there are different reasons why born again Christians still sin - immaturity, lack of vigilance, carelessness, foolishness, thoughtlessness, lack of foresight, lack of knowledge. Some of these reasons disappear as we grow up and mature in our knowledge and experience in the Holy Spirit. Some are never going to disappear. Being caught unawares and without malice aforethought will always be a potential cause and source of sin for even the most mature born again believer.

I consider the claim of the born again person to be sinless to be on the opposite extreme of claiming that one is still a sinner. While both can be explained, I think it unwise to take either position.

Are you under the doctrine that "sin is sin"? The Reformation dumbed down what the people of God knew all the way back to when they received God's laws, that there are two types of sin. Even the Catholics know that and call them mortal sins and venial sins. In one post you mentioned a man raging. That has to do with self-control. Which type of sin is that? A sin unto death, or a sin not unto death? Is it willful or unintentional? Rage can be unintentional, but if we abide in Christ, even the lack of self-control that produced the rage will be matured in us by Christ, NOT US.

Just so you know, I CAN'T commit a sin unto death like adultery. When Jesus cleansed my nature that produced that sin, I was free from it in an instant, not like the process of maturing the fruit of the Spirit that can cause rage. Our clean nature makes us sinless/righteous. But that is far from perfect/holy. What John calls righteous is freedom from sins unto death. Those are the only type of sin in 1 John 3:9 that he is speaking of. And immature fruit that causes unintentional sins not unto death are the only type of sin that 1 John 1:7 is speaking of. See below.

9 Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.

7 But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin.

What the Reformation did which caused their doctrines of defeatism, is add sins not unto death to 1 John 3:9 causing them to have to add "practice" to the verse so they could rate to it themselves as righteous. And adding sins unto death to 1 John 1:7 causing their next false doctrine that Jesus cleanses us of our "past, present and future" willful sins unto death which are only cleansed once from our past only. No one obeys Paul who said to reckon ourselves free from sin (unto death), lest we commit sin (unto death). Even you dismissed me for doing so.

 

[TitusTwoWife]

While many see the use of "perfect" in these places as referring to "moral excellence", or something similar, in fact that is not the particular meaning of the word used here. This is "complete", "mature", "finished", like that.

Jesus said in the Sermon on the Mount, "be ye perfect, as your Father in heaven is perfect". When you look at the context, it's about not loving the ones who love you only, but to be complete and mature in your love for others, loving even those who hate you.
Much love!

I looked it up in Greek.

τέλειον

I translated it back to English. It just means perfect.




I suspect some of these bible scholars just really wanted to disagree with the King James Version for reasons only they know.

 

[marks]

I looked it up in Greek.

τέλειον

I translated it back to English. It just means perfect.

View attachment 91028


I suspect some of these bible scholars just really wanted to disagree with the King James Version for reasons only they know.

I'm not mistaken on this.

Remember . . . I believe that God can bring us to live without any known sin. So I'm not trying to justify a sinful lifestyle. Having been schooled in Koine Greek, and having studied it on my own for many years, I'm offering you information.

Much love!

 

[1stCenturyLady]

Yeah. It's almost as if sin isn't a default state or inevitable.

Seeing as those sins of the born again of the Spirit are unintentional we may not even know about them, TTW. That is why it is important to always walk in the Spirit. Immature fruit imperfections are cleansed making you still sinless/righteous, and still on the path towards holiness/perfection. And, yes, in this lifetime.