Sinless Perfection. Why do so many teach against what Jesus taught?

[Lizbeth]

While many see the use of "perfect" in these places as referring to "moral excellence", or something similar, in fact that is not the particular meaning of the word used here. This is "complete", "mature", "finished", like that.

Jesus said in the Sermon on the Mount, "be ye perfect, as your Father in heaven is perfect". When you look at the context, it's about not loving the ones who love you only, but to be complete and mature in your love for others, loving even those who hate you.
Much love!

Amen, I agree. It a love that is not of our own, but God's love which goes beyond and is higher than human emotions. I believe it is alluding to or speaking again of walking in His Spirit/nature.

Looking it up in the Hebrew the word translated as "perfect" is "salem" (shalom)....which seems to encapsulate kind of a range of meanings...whole, perfect, full, just, peaceable. I get a sense of a finishing touch that makes something whole/perfect/finished/full/complete......and I believe the finishing touch is His Spirit that we are to walk in...in other words we are to be spiritual...walk in the fullness of Christ.

 

[Hepzibah]

@Lizbeth
I thought you might be interested:

Frank Warner Bible Teacher and Author Official Website

The official website of Frank Warner Bible teacher, and #1 Amazon bestselling author; author of the Holiness and Perfection website, and the book: Work Out Your Own Salvation with Fear and Trembling, Holiness messages, and others

www.frankwarnerauthor.com

 

[Lizbeth]

@Lizbeth
I thought you might be interested:

Frank Warner Bible Teacher and Author Official Website

The official website of Frank Warner Bible teacher, and #1 Amazon bestselling author; author of the Holiness and Perfection website, and the book: Work Out Your Own Salvation with Fear and Trembling, Holiness messages, and others

www.frankwarnerauthor.com

Thanks sister, I'll have a look.

 

[Judge Hardcastle]

If we're truly humble, we'll repent from sin. Not just be honest sinners. It's good to acknowledge our sins. Its not good to stay stuck in them.

Anyway, the point I was getting at was a person with a generally boastful attitude about being 'sinless' indicates someone who is probably untested, not victorious over sin. The person who has been through the meat grinder of life and who has faced many temptations (and failures) on his way to maturity in Christ and has come out the other side changed from what he was before has a humble compassionate attitude about the struggle with sin and does not condescend to those who are in that battle. I know, some are going to say their boast in the Lord. They show it is not when they condescend toward others. The 'sinless' group always makes me think of the Pharisee in Luke 18:11-12.

11The Pharisee stood by himself and prayed: ‘God, I thank you that I am not like other people—robbers, evildoers, adulterers—or even like this tax collector. 12I fast twice a week and give a tenth of all I get.’

 

[Episkopos]

Anyway, the point I was getting at was a person with a generally boastful attitude about being 'sinless' indicates someone who is probably untested, not victorious over sin. The person who has been through the meat grinder of life and who has faced many temptations (and failures) on his way to maturity in Christ and has come out the other side changed from what he was before has a humble compassionate attitude about the struggle with sin and does not condescend to those who are in that battle. I know, some are going to say their boast in the Lord. They show it is not when they condescend toward others. The 'sinless' group always makes me think of the Pharisee in Luke 18:11-12.

11The Pharisee stood by himself and prayed: ‘God, I thank you that I am not like other people—robbers, evildoers, adulterers—or even like this tax collector. 12I fast twice a week and give a tenth of all I get.’

While this is true...the ego is still present in those who have no victory over sin. So these will take any kind of faith in sinlessness as an affront to their ego. So that is the other side of the balance that needs to be considered.

The attitude on either side of the equation should be one of gratitude, humility, and the fear of the Lord. The difference is in the testimony.

 

[Judge Hardcastle]

In one post you mentioned a man raging. That has to do with self-control. Which type of sin is that? A sin unto death, or a sin not unto death?

It depends on if you are committing it in unbelief, or not.

Galatians 5:19-21
19The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.

They key here being 'those who live like this'. Unbelievers are the ones who 'live like this' and for whom it is 'unto death', not born again believers, although some born again believers may struggle with it because they are still in unredeemed flesh.

Galatians 5:17
17For the cravings of the lower nature are opposed to those of the Spirit, and the cravings of the Spirit are opposed to those of the lower nature; because these are antagonistic to each other, so that you cannot do everything to which you are inclined.

Is it willful or unintentional? Rage can be unintentional

Willful sin signifies unbelief. For them all sin is unto death. For the believer, only the sin of unbelief expressed in a choice to return to willful sin is unto death. And of course, the great debate goes on as to whether or not a true born again believer can return to unbelief.

 

[ProDeo]

While this is true...the ego is still present in those who have no victory over sin. So these will take any kind of faith in sinlessness as an affront to their ego. So that is the other side of the balance that needs to be considered.

True, but the poster you reply to does not give me that impression.

The attitude on either side of the equation should be one of gratitude, humility, and the fear of the Lord. The difference is in the testimony.

Yep.

 

[Judge Hardcastle]

The attitude on either side of the equation should be one of gratitude, humility, and the fear of the Lord. The difference is in the testimony.

The difference is in whether or not they have a compassionate attitude toward those who sin. I usually don't see it in people who subscribe to the doctrine of sinless perfection. That's what makes me think they are untested, not sinless.

When you've been through the meat grinder of life you tend to be compassionate and understanding towards those in sin, whether they are believers or not.

 

[Episkopos]

Willful sin signifies unbelief. For them all sin is unto death. For the believer, only the sin of unbelief expressed in a choice to return to willful sin is unto death. And of course, the great debate goes on as to whether or not a true born again believer can return to unbelief.

Agreed. But unbelief is not about believing things ABOUT Jesus. The many who are rejected for unbelief are ministers of the gospel. These don't believe the warnings of Jesus and the prophets. They don't believe in the victory of Christ as being something that is possible for them.

All we have to do is look at the Iaraelites in the wilderness. They didn't enter in because of unbelief. And yet they believed more in God than any other generation since then.

So then unbelief is not about having no belief....it's about believing a lie that cuts faith off. Like all the people in the churches that don't believe they can conquer sin through Christ and His grace power. They have no faith in His power...so they are in unbelief.

 

[Lizbeth]

The difference is in whether or not they have a compassionate attitude toward those who sin. I usually don't see it in people who subscribe to the doctrine of sinless perfection. That's what makes me think they are untested, not sinless.

When you've been through the meat grinder of life you tend to be compassionate and understanding towards those in sin, whether they are believers or not.

Amen. Like our High Priest who was touched with the feeling of our infirmities. God doesn't waste our mistakes and failures....He uses them to humble us and make us more reliant on Him.

 

[Episkopos]

The difference is in whether or not they have a compassionate attitude toward those who sin. I usually don't see it in people who subscribe to the doctrine of sinless perfection. That's what makes me think they are untested, not sinless.

You are going to get all types on any issue. It makes the truth harder to see that some or many might exaggerate their true condition. But that still doesn't excuse unbelief in what the bible says.

As in..in those days everyone did what was right in their own eyes...there was no knowledge of God in the land.

When you've been through the meat grinder of life you tend to be compassionate and understanding towards those in sin, whether they are believers or not.

True. But you don't win a war by having PTSD. On the other hand, if you think God has mercy on sinners who are not Christian...then that helps your cause about having mercy and compassion on those who suffer in this life.

So how about it? Do you think God's mercy extends beyond the church? Or does God only have mercy on those who claim Him as their Saviour?

 

[Lizbeth]

And yet they believed more in God than any other generation since then.

That is not true. "They without us would not be made perfect." (perfect in the sense of entering the new covenant) The Israelites were before Christ and the giving of the Holy Spirit. This is why the least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than the greatest under the old covenant. (Not because we are any better in ourselves, but because of the cross and what it wrought.)

 

[Judge Hardcastle]

The difference is in whether or not they have a compassionate attitude toward those who sin. I usually don't see it in people who subscribe to the doctrine of sinless perfection. That's what makes me think they are untested, not sinless.

To add to this, I know this because I've been on both sides. As a new born child of God I had a sense of pride because I was 'not like others'. My history didn't include many of life's hardships - addictions, abuse, etc. - and I had a very dramatic conversion experience. Together these made me feel 'special' and more successful in my Christian life than everyone else. Then life happened and I found out I was not so special in that regard. I found out I was untested, not great. And it changed who I am and opened the door to real power in love and ministry.

 

[Episkopos]

That is not true. "They without us would not be made perfect." (perfect in the sense of entering the new covenant) The Israelites were before Christ and the giving of the Holy Spirit. This is why the least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than the greatest under the old covenant. (Not because we are any better in ourselves, but because of the cross and what it wrought.)

Take any generation and take them to a body of water...and ask them if they believed it could be miraculously parted.

The idea is that the Israelites were so blasé about seeing daily miracles... for 40 years straight...but they couldn't equate that with what God could do THROUGH them...just like today's believers/unbelievers.

So to not make a liar out of you...what other generation were you thinking of that saw more miracles than the Israelites in the wilderness?

 

[shepherdsword]

Grace is unmerited favor from God to you...humanity.

and a car is an automobile.

You are just presenting a synonym and not a definition. Now if I said a car is a motorized vehicle capable of transporting people from one place to another I would be giving a definition. (albeit incomplete) The same can be said of grace, while it is initially unmerited (the humble receive more) it is actually the POWER of God to obey Him and walk in His ways. That is a definition

 

[Judge Hardcastle]

So how about it? Do you think God's mercy extends beyond the church?

Yes, of course it does. No one could be saved if God didn't extend his mercy beyond the church.

Luke 18:13
13“But the tax collector stood at a distance. He would not even look up to heaven, but beat his breast and said, ‘God, have mercy on me, a sinner.’

Everyone who is in Christ is in him because of his mercy, not because they are great. And it is this very ministry of mercy towards others, including our enemies, that we are called to.

Matthew 5:44-48
44But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? 47And if you greet only your own people, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? 48Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

Notice this is the perfection that God is calling us to. When we do this in any one situation we are being perfect. Stop looking at perfection as a state of perfection, but rather as a goal to reach for in each and every situation and circumstance of life as it comes up. Responding according to God's way of love according to the fruit of the Spirit is perfection. Love being the virtue that binds them all altogehter.

Colossians 3:12-14
12Therefore, as God’s chosen people, holy and dearly loved, clothe yourselves with compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness and patience. 13Bear with each other and forgive one another if any of you has a grievance against someone. Forgive as the Lord forgave you. 14And over all these virtues put on love, which binds them all together in perfect unity.

That is what we are to excel in and be perfect in.

 

[Lizbeth]

Take any generation and take them to a body of water...and ask them if they believed it could be miraculously parted.

The idea is that the Israelites were so blasé about seeing daily miracles... for 40 years straight...but they couldn't equate that with what God could do THROUGH them...just like today's believers/unbelievers.

So to not make a liar out of you...what other generation were you thinking of that saw more miracles than the Israelites in the wilderness?

There are so many miracles that God has been doing all along that don't get written down in a book or advertised, the ones we are aware of are only the tip of the iceberg. Nevertheless I would point to the early church for an example of such faith.....they were seeing miracles and remaining faithful under terrible persecution. But we don't see as much faith or as many miracles as there should be in western Christendom in general.

 

[Episkopos]

Yes, of course it does. No one could be saved if God didn't extend his mercy beyond the church.

Exactly. But many in the churches can't accept that.

Luke 18:13
13“But the tax collector stood at a distance. He would not even look up to heaven, but beat his breast and said, ‘God, have mercy on me, a sinner.’

Everyone who is in Christ is in him because of his mercy, not because they are great. And it is this very ministry of mercy towards others, including our enemies, that we are called to.

Amen.

Matthew 5:44-48
44But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? 47And if you greet only your own people, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? 48Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

Notice this is the perfection that God is calling us to. When we do this in any one situation we are being perfect. Stop looking at perfection as a state of perfection, but rather as a goal to reach for in each and every situation and circumstance of life as it comes up. Responding according to God's way of love according to the fruit of the Spirit is perfection. Love being the virtue that binds them all altogehter.

Colossians 3:12-14
12Therefore, as God’s chosen people, holy and dearly loved, clothe yourselves with compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness and patience. 13Bear with each other and forgive one another if any of you has a grievance against someone. Forgive as the Lord forgave you. 14And over all these virtues put on love, which binds them all together in perfect unity.

That is what we are to excel in and be perfect in.

Do you see a different standard for the church than for the world....as in...to whom much is given more is required?

 

[Lizbeth]

and a car is an automobile.

You are just presenting a synonym and not a definition. Now if I said a car is a motorized vehicle capable of transporting people from one place to another I would be giving a definition. (albeit incomplete) The same can be said of grace, while it is initially unmerited (the humble receive more) it is actually the POWER of God to obey Him and walk in His ways. That is a definition

Grace is not just one thing though. It is power, but it is also an attitude of graciousness and favour towards those He has brought into His household.

 

[Episkopos]

Grace is not just one thing though. It is power, but it is also an attitude of graciousness and favour towards those He has brought into His household.

Grace is about giving within our capacity to give. So then God being all-powerful, can equip those whom He loves to be overcomers like His Son and share in His glory. This is about saints and the Bride of Christ.

Then there are those who STEAL grace from God and then expect to receive graciousness from others based on their booty.

I would say only other pirates might be impressed by the piracy of another.

Of course we are to be gracious in our capacity one to another...but that is among brethren. In that case we feed and clothe and house the brethren...and show them love and support. But that is among the household of God. For the brethren...we are members one of another.