Sinless Perfection. Why do so many teach against what Jesus taught?

[Lizbeth]

No. Writing yourself into every thing that is gracious and pleasant to your ears and pushing the rebukes and hard to hear things and warnings off a cliff is self justification.

Good thing I've never done that then.

 

[JimKnox]

I'm curious which denomination would scoff.

That's hilarious because you are laying a false charge to an entire group of people.
You claim to be a 1st century lady and I partly believe that since you are a member of the cult of Dionysus who claimed to be the queen of heaven.
The Holy Scriptures have something to say about that.

 

[Lizbeth]

Romans 12 says that by having your mind renewed you can “prove“ what is the good, acceptable and perfect will of God. At first I thought it odd that there were three but I’m thinking the good are unbelievers who prove they have Gods’ law written on their heart and are meek, the acceptable are us who are led by the Spirit and learning to do righteousness and to be meek, and then of course the perfect are those who God sweeps up into actually walking IN the Spirit.

Ah, assuming that is true for a moment, but is "good" good enough for eternal life? Adam and Eve were declared to be "good" when they were created...........but not yet perfect because they had not yet eaten from the Tree of Life.

 

[Lizbeth]

Because there is a source of true judgment you know nothing about. God Himself.

Does that address my post somehow? Are we not supposed to BELIEVE the word of God Himself?

 

[MostlyConfused]

Ah, assuming that is true for a moment, but is "good" good enough for eternal life? Adam and Eve were declared to be "good" when they were created...........but not yet perfect because they had not yet eaten from the Tree of Life.

You are literally asking if God will NOT make a place for a meek man who has a heart to harm no one. You had better be very careful and just don’t make that judgement.

 

[Grailhunter]

Yeshua said.....Therefore you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect. Matthew 5:48 Was He kidding?
Was He mistaken? Either way it has obviously caused some confusion. Why? Only God is perfect. Lets look at the words in the scripture...

It is.....shall be therefore.......Which is not the same meaning as......Therefore you are to be perfect.....
Some facts to consider......
1. Only God is perfect.
2. No such thing as a perfect or sinless human.
3. Yahweh has zero tolerance for sin.
At face value this would mean we cannot have a close relationship with Yahweh.
But when Yeshua passed on the cross the veil in the Temple was ripped in two.
What does this mean?
The tearing of the temple veil refers to the moment of Jesus’ death when the inner curtain of the Jerusalem Temple—about 60 feet high and extremely thick—was torn from top to bottom, symbolizing direct access to God, the end of the old covenant, and the completion of Christ’s atoning work.

So how does this connect to perfection, well it is a little complicated, but the bottom line is.....it is about the effects of Grace. Not that God just likes us, it is a power.
I have actually heard this explanation from a female professor at Cambridge University and a Southern Baptist preacher and I think it is true.

Matthew 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.
I am thinking you noticed this is a little odd.
No one can be perfect much less perfect as Yahweh. But for Yahweh to have any relationship with us, we have to be perfect, without a single sin. That is we have never sinned in our whole life. In the Old Testament in the Holy of Holies there was a veil that separated Yahweh from people. Because if anyone but the priest came to close, He would kill them. Yahweh has zero tolerance for sin.
Did I say no one is sinless? Well actually all Christians are sinless when they come up out of the water at baptism, it just does not last long. From there the power of Grace takes over.....
What is Grace? So many definitions by so many denominations.....and even the scriptures describe it different ways.

Webster's definition of Grace....
Is the unmerited favor of God grace or Grace?

Grace in the scriptures….

What Does the Bible Say About Grace In The Bible?

I think in general in the scriptures grace is defined as favor or love.
Yeshua forgives us because He loves us, but that is not Grace, it is grace.
I believe Grace is an event, a power not a being or an emotion.

When Yeshua passed on the cross the veil in the Temple tore in two, I think that was because of Grace.
We were no longer separated from Yahweh. No further need for the Holy of Holies.
Grace made our reconciliation with Yahweh possible and complete.
How? Yahweh has zero tolerance for sin.....that is what separated us to begin with.
The phrase "saved by Grace" has implications. For us to be in Heaven we have to be perfect without sin. Even in Heaven Yahweh has zero tolerance for sin. So in effect we are saved by Grace, because if it weren't for Grace we could not go to Heaven.

Yeshua's passing on the cross did not change Yahweh.
The tearing of the veil did not change Yahweh.
The New Covenant did not change Yahweh.
The New Covenant did not make us sinless, we still sin.
So how can Yahweh stand to associate with us?

We are changed.
Yahweh turned all authority over us to Yeshua. He turned our sins over to Yeshua.
And Grace, the blood of Yeshua acts like a spiritual white cloak that covers our sins and Yahweh does not see them. So as far as Yahweh is concerned, we stand before Him---perfect---perfected by Grace so that we are perfect as God the Father in Heaven. So we are not actually perfect, we are perfected by the power of Grace.

Of course, the best of us sin. And that is between us and Yeshua and our sins are forgiven by Yeshua if we ask for forgiveness.......

And there is another element that has to do with Baptism. You might ask yourself if Yeshua forgives our sins what is the purpose of Baptism? Before we are Christians the sins we commit are directly a transgression against Yahweh. Baptism is for the remission of sins. When you come up out of that water, as far as Yahweh is concerned you are born....we call it born again. That past person and the sins that person committed never happened, that person never existed. At that point your sins are between you and Yeshua. And you ask forgiveness and He forgives you. So this is how we are perfected by Grace.

 

[Lizbeth]

You are literally asking if God will NOT make a place for a meek man who has a heart to harm no one. You had better be very careful and just don’t make that judgement.

You are literally saying a man can save himself by his own righteousness, without Christ. I am making no judgment of my own, but simply believing God's word.

 

[MostlyConfused]

I can’t any more with you today. You are exhausting and you will not give up this repetition. You just take whatever Episkopos teaches and steal it away (while acting as if you already knew it and that you have said it all along) and you slap it onto your jenga tower even WHILE you speak ill of him. And I am a fool because I get drawn back into your repetition because you post what he has taught to someone else and I think you have finally seen it but all you have done is jealously and covetously took it and twisted it to fit this misshapen thing you have built.

 

[JustMe]

I can’t any more with you today. You are exhausting and you will not give up this repetition. You just take whatever Episkopos teaches and steal it away (while acting as if you already knew it and that you have said it all along) and you slap it onto your jenga tower even WHILE you speak ill of him. And I am a fool because I get drawn back into your repetition because you post what he has taught to someone else and I think you have finally seen it but all you have done is jealously and covetously took it and twisted it to fit this misshapen thing you have built.

It sounds like you are totallyconfused and not just mostly.

You might need a timeout from all this, and reassess what you have learned. Time with the pause button pressed helps to see what you may have collected, and you may want to discard the trash you may have picked up along the way. I would attempt to align with what I've learned with scripture and the people who us it clearly, consistently, and seriously, in contrast to those that throw out a verse once in awhile as an attack, in anger or haste.

Have a great week to come...

 

[MostlyConfused]

It sounds like you are totallyconfused and not just mostly.

You might need a timeout from all this, and reassess what you have learned. Time with the pause button pressed helps to see what you may have collected, and you may want to discard the trash you may have picked up along the way. I would attempt to align with what I've learned with scripture and the people who us it clearly, consistently, and seriously, in contrast to those that throw out a verse once in awhile as an attack, in anger or haste.

Have a great week to come...

That doesn’t work on me anymore. It’s the same worn out tactic I grew up having used on me. I am freed from its spell and healed from its harm. I didn’t speak in anger but in honesty. You can’t shame me for being honest. Won’t produce the effect you want.

I may have picked up trash along the way that I need to reassess, in fact it’s likely, but if so, none of it came from what episkopos was given and freely gives.

 

[Lizbeth]

I can’t any more with you today. You are exhausting and you will not give up this repetition. You just take whatever Episkopos teaches and steal it away (while acting as if you already knew it and that you have said it all along) and you slap it onto your jenga tower even WHILE you speak ill of him. And I am a fool because I get drawn back into your repetition because you post what he has taught to someone else and I think you have finally seen it but all you have done is jealously and covetously took it and twisted it to fit this misshapen thing you have built.

You don't know me sister. I've been discussing on and off with Episkopos for about 4 years now, long before you arrived. But have you noticed that I don't dispute with him regarding holiness......only about other things. I disagree with him that Catholics are our brothers and sisters (apart from a scant few)....because the vast majority of them don't know the Lord, and because the Lord made it clear to me that the RCC institution itself is not under His rule but another spirit (which Epi mocked). I disagree with him about his belief that imputed righteousness speaks of a person's own righteousness being imputed to them. And I disagree with him that people can be saved by their own righteousness, without faith in Christ and the gospel. And some other things....like four levels of salvation (a quick word search lets us know that the filthy and unjust speaks of unbelievers or reprobate believers, not the saved) .....and I believe outer darkness has to be alluding to the kingdom of darkness, not any level of salvation. And I disagree where he says the cross is not about forgiveness....and that grace is not about forgiveness either, only power. In short, he has doctrines that I consider to be heretical.

I do agree with a lot of what he says regarding holiness, they line up with a lot of what I already understood...........except I don't know if either me or him are in spirit with our understanding of all that yet. I feel like something is lacking in my understanding...I'm unsure whether I have a handle on it yet. But I can't even begin to broach the topic of holiness with him any more since I found out about those other serious foundational issues being in the way....they would have to be resolved first.

I hope this helps you to understand better where I'm coming from.

 

[Episkopos]

You don't know me sister. I've been discussing on and off with Episkopos for about 4 years now, long before you arrived. But have you noticed that I don't dispute with him regarding holiness......only about other things.

This is just to clarify the all the twisting of meanings and the fact that my balanced doctrine is seen as heresy by heretics who cannot tolerate sound doctrine.

I disagree with him that Catholics are our brothers and sisters (apart from a scant few)....because the vast majority of them don't know the Lord, and because the Lord made it clear to me that the RCC institution itself is not under His rule but another spirit (which Epi mocked).

It is a typical Protestant religious prejudice that make all Catholics as unsaved or unbelievers. As if being a Protestant was a golden ticket that gave them exclusive rights to condemn others. Condemning those whom Jesus died for is a typical ploy of any religious hypocrite and bigot. It's part of the extremism we see in those who have learned to justify themselves by a self-imputation of God's own righteousness on themselves. A wicked practice. And to all the deceived ones, this is a normal practice.

I disagree with him about his belief that imputed righteousness speaks of a person's own righteousness being imputed to them.

God cannot impute a fictitious level of righteousness to a person. God is not an evangelical. God judges if a person is acting in good faith or not ..based on the choices THEY make.

And I disagree with him that people can be saved by their own righteousness, without faith in Christ and the gospel.

This is a twisting of the meaning of the gospel. The gospel to the poor and meek is that God will take care of them. The bible NEVER makes beliefs a requirement for salvation in the world. The world will ONLY be judged by their works. Read the sheep goats parable and try finding a religious questionnaire in there.

And some other things....like four levels of salvation (a quick word search lets us know that the filthy and unjust speaks of unbelievers or reprobate believers, not the saved) .....and I believe outer darkness has to be alluding to the kingdom of darkness, not any level of salvation. And I disagree where he says the cross is not about forgiveness....and that grace is not about forgiveness either, only power. In short, he has doctrines that I consider to be heretical.

What is heresy is to claim a half-holiness, to claim that the warnings of the bible are just for others (well they are because the wicked don't repent) and that one can claim salvation for oneself based on one's beliefs. God is entirely out of the equation...unless it is the god of one's mind.

I do agree with a lot of what he says regarding holiness, they line up with a lot of what I already understood..

That's the problem...you only agree with what you already understand which makes you both carnal and unteachable. A deadly combination.

.........except I don't know if either me or him are in spirit with our understanding of all that yet.

This is where you reduce others to your level.

I feel like something is lacking in my understanding.

The understatement of the year.

..I'm unsure whether I have a handle on it yet. But I can't even begin to broach the topic of holiness with him any more since I found out about those other serious foundational issues being in the way....they would have to be resolved first.

I hope this helps you to understand better where I'm coming from.

Loud and clear.

 

[ProDeo]

Maybe you should correct MC, she said you are not walking in the Spirit, if so, how can you tell others to walk in the Spirit ?

The spies went into the land promised to them all. How could they then tell others to go take it when they were no longer in it but had come back out of it and into the desert…?.

It's not a very good comparison, the spies died.

Num 14:36 And the men whom Moses sent to spy out the land, who returned and made all the congregation grumble against him by bringing up a bad report about the land—
Num 14:37 the men who brought up a bad report of the land— died by plague before the LORD.
Num 14:38 Of those men who went to spy out the land, only Joshua the son of Nun and Caleb the son of Jephunneh remained alive.

Bad news for Epi.

 

[Laurina]

It's not a very good comparison, the spies died.

Num 14:36 And the men whom Moses sent to spy out the land, who returned and made all the congregation grumble against him by bringing up a bad report about the land—
Num 14:37 the men who brought up a bad report of the land— died by plague before the LORD.
Num 14:38 Of those men who went to spy out the land, only Joshua the son of Nun and Caleb the son of Jephunneh remained alive.

Bad news for Epi.

How do you see that as bad news for Epi???
He has a good report of the land. The 2 spies that had a good report were the only two from the original Israelites that entered the promise land.
It's more like bad news for you. Because you don't believe his good report.

 

[MostlyConfused]

I do understand what you said earlier Episkopos. It will take a blinding light or a talking donkey. But God does do those things so…
I also think He takes into account what was done to us when we were younger and how that makes it hard for us to lay down the faulty “copes” and defenses we developed as children who were confused and trying to survive mentally. I’m not saying there are some people God can’t reach and heal. Psychologists say covert narcissists cant be healed but I don’t believe it. I believe it’s true that the psychologist cant help to heal them but it is possible with God. With God nothing is hopeless.

 

[MostlyConfused]

It's not a very good comparison, the spies died.

Num 14:36 And the men whom Moses sent to spy out the land, who returned and made all the congregation grumble against him by bringing up a bad report about the land—
Num 14:37 the men who brought up a bad report of the land— died by plague before the LORD.
Num 14:38 Of those men who went to spy out the land, only Joshua the son of Nun and Caleb the son of Jephunneh remained alive.

Bad news for Epi.

That makes zero sense to me. Sorry.
I wasn’t referring to the spies who said it would be impossible and so they died outside Of what God wanted to give them. I am talking about the spies who gave a good report of the place God wanted to give them and trusted God that He could protect them and give to them what He said He would.

 

[ProDeo]

How do you see that as bad news for Epi???

It's not my bad news, but the riddle of MC.

He has a good report of the land. The 2 spies that had a good report were the only two from the original Israelites that entered the promise land.
It's more like bad news for you. Because you don't believe his good report.

Consider again -

Num 13:30 But Caleb quieted the people before Moses and said, “Let us go up at once and occupy it, for we are well able to overcome it.”
Num 13:31 Then the men who had gone up with him said, “We are not able to go up against the people, for they are stronger than we are.”
Num 13:32 So they brought to the people of Israel a bad report of the land that they had spied out, saying, “The land, through which we have gone to spy it out, is a land that devours its inhabitants, and all the people that we saw in it are of great height.
Num 13:33 And there we saw the Nephilim (the sons of Anak, who come from the Nephilim), and we seemed to ourselves like grasshoppers, and so we seemed to them.”

They gave a bad report, the result -

Num 14:1 Then all the congregation raised a loud cry, and the people wept that night.
Num 14:2 And all the people of Israel grumbled against Moses and Aaron. The whole congregation said to them, “Would that we had died in the land of Egypt! Or would that we had died in this wilderness!
Num 14:3 Why is the LORD bringing us into this land, to fall by the sword? Our wives and our little ones will become a prey. Would it not be better for us to go back to Egypt?”
Num 14:4 And they said to one another, “Let us choose a leader and go back to Egypt.”

Ending in the death of the 10 spies.

 

[Lizbeth]

This is just to clarify the all the twisting of meanings and the fact that my balanced doctrine is seen as heresy by heretics who cannot tolerate sound doctrine.


It is a typical Protestant religious prejudice that make all Catholics as unsaved or unbelievers. As if being a Protestant was a golden ticket that gave them exclusive rights to condemn others. Condemning those whom Jesus died for is a typical ploy of any religious hypocrite and bigot. It's part of the extremism we see in those who have learned to justify themselves by a self-imputation of God's own righteousness on themselves. A wicked practice. And to all the deceived ones, this is a normal practice.







God cannot impute a fictitious level of righteousness to a person. God is not an evangelical. God judges if a person is acting in good faith or not ..based on the choices THEY make.



This is a twisting of the meaning of the gospel. The gospel to the poor and meek is that God will take care of them. The bible NEVER makes beliefs a requirement for salvation in the world. The world will ONLY be judged by their works. Read the sheep goats parable and try finding a religious questionnaire in there.


What is heresy is to claim a half-holiness, to claim that the warnings of the bible are just for others (well they are because the wicked don't repent) and that one can claim salvation for oneself based on one's beliefs. God is entirely out of the equation...unless it is the god of one's mind.


That's the problem...you only agree with what you already understand which makes you both carnal and unteachable. A deadly combination.


This is where you reduce others to your level.

The understatement of the year.

Loud and clear.

My post really wasn't intended for argument or debate.......just wanted to try and clarify my position for someone who seemed confused and upset by things I was saying.