Sinless Perfection. Why do so many teach against what Jesus taught?

[Judge Hardcastle]

Does your beliefs say that you still have a sin nature?

My belief is the corrupt desires of the flesh that tempt and entice no longer have the power and authority over me that they once had before I was born again through faith in Christ and became united with him in spirit.

The more I realize and believe that, usually through the experience of battle, the easier it is to resist those temptations. That is the key to overcoming sin for the believer. It's a journey of learning about and experiencing warfare with the desires of the flesh as we grow up and mature to the image of Christ. That journey is easier for some than it is for others. For you the battle with adultery turned out to be no battle at all really. And good for you! I mean that. But the reality is that is not true for other brothers and sisters.

 

[Judge Hardcastle]

No, he teaches to have the fear of God since it's the beginning of wisdom.

Yes, it's the beginning. As he pointed out to you, as we grow up into the image of Christ through knowledge we no longer live in the bondage of fear because in this world we are like him. That's a journey, not an overnight success story, though we are saved through our faith in God's forgiveness every inch of that journey.

 

[Judge Hardcastle]

If you are really born again, you would have no desire to sin.

I wish that were true.
But I'm still in unredeemed flesh that barks for attention, and sometimes whispers silently and seductively in my ear. All Christians are subject to temptation. Just as our Lord Jesus in his perfection was.

So how do you know you sin if it is unintentional. That means unknown.

No, unintentional sin is not limited to not knowing you committed a sin, or that you didn't know what you were doing was a sin. It means you committed a sin with no malice aforethought. This includes sinning out of fear in the urgency or desperation of a moment, or sinning out of ignorance, or thoughtlessness, or immaturity, or weakness, or a lack of foresight, or the deception of the enemy. Sometimes it's just plain stupidity or foolishness.

For the Christian, who by virtue of being in the realm of the Spirit doesn't want to sin in the deepest part of his being (his spirit) sin is not intentional for the sake of sinning. I'm not writing a hard and fast rule here. Each believer has to examine the motive and reason behind their sin. I just know from experience that the sin that seemed so 'intentional' was actually motivated by the things I listed above, not by a willful rejection of Christ and his sacrifice. I've never done that.

We are to reckon ourselves free of sin, lest we sin.

That is the key to waging the war with sin, the enemy of the soul. By faith we believe that the enemy of sin that tempts us is a toothless lion who can only roar but has no teeth with which to devour. Generally speaking, as children of God we grow in faith toward this realization, not start out in it. But for some, perhaps yourself, the learning curve is largely completed before salvation. They learn what a disaster sin is while still unredeemed and are more ready to enter into and inhabit the good land - the soil of the heart free of the torments of the enemy - when they get saved. They are some of the most beautiful Christians I have ever met.

By telling yourself you still sin, you surely will.

You're misunderstanding the argument. Acknowledging that you don't become perfectly sinless after being born again is simply acknowledging the reality that the battle with the enemy of sin is a journey, just as the journey of the Israelites to the possession of God's promises was a journey. And one that involved battle after battle with the enemy of their progress. And, as I wish to point out, battles that became more intense and challenging as they got closer to possessing the promises of God, but which they were more equipped to fight. And may I also point out that they never did drive out the enemy completely from the land, but co-existed with them, with them in submission to them, not absent from them.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

The only sin that is unto death is the sin, any sin, that stems from your willful decision to sin in unbelief.

The Catholics erroneously translated the concept of some sins carrying the death penalty in the covenant of law into this New Covenant where ALL sin can be forgiven.

Acts 13:38-39
38“Therefore, my friends, I want you to know that through Jesus the forgiveness of sins is proclaimed to you. 39Through him everyone who believes is set free from every sin, a justification you were not able to obtain under the law of Moses.

Sin in unbelief? Does that mean you can sin in belief? I don't get it. We cannot sin in belief. In the New Covenant our past sins are taken away and forgiven. Only all willful lawless sins in our PAST are forgiven. Not the blasphemous doctrine that adds present and future sins.

David is the example of this forgiveness that is by faith and is apart from the law that Paul uses to prove and illustrate this truth.

Romans 4:5-8
5However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness. 6David says the same thing when he speaks of the blessedness of the one to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:

7“Blessed are those
whose transgressions are forgiven,
whose sins are covered.
8Blessed is the one
whose sin the Lord will never count against them.” b

He was a murderer and an adulterer with no remedy under the law. But he found the forgiveness of God that is outside of the law and is through faith in the eternal ministry and sacrifice of Christ and which was revealed to all with the coming and appearing of Christ.

David is Old Covenant. Those sins were only covered. The New Covenant of the Spirit is where sin is TAKEN AWAY.

Sin is not redeemed.
Our bodies are redeemed. At the resurrection.

Our body is not redeemed, it is dying. Our nature is redeemed now. Our bodies still have to die like our sin nature died and is resurrected NOW clean.

Flesh is a noun, so I don't understand your question.

Romans 7:5-6
5 For when we were in the flesh, the sinful passions which were aroused by the law were at work in our members to bear fruit to death. 6 But now we have been delivered from the law, having died to what we were held by, so that we should serve in the newness of the Spirit and not in the oldness of the letter.

 

[Judge Hardcastle]

Sin in unbelief? Does that mean you can sin in belief? I don't get it.

It means you sin from a state of being an unbeliever.
Believers don't do that because they are believers.
They are not in a state of unbelief that they should be sinning from a condition of unbelief.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

But I'm still in unredeemed flesh

Then that means you do not belong to Christ. Romans 8:9.

I belong to Christ because I am NOT IN THE FLESH, but in the Spirit.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

It means you sin from a state of being an unbeliever.
Believers don't do that because they are believers.
They are not in a state of unbelief that they should be sinning from a condition of unbelief.

So is there a state where you can sin in belief? After all, you are a believe, yet you say you still sin. I don't.

 

[Judge Hardcastle]

We cannot sin in belief.

You need to wake up and smell the coffee.
Born again believers still sin.

No child is born grown up and looking and acting like his dad. It's no different with the children of God. We grow up into the image of our Father, not start out in it, though surely we can see the image of our father to whom we belong even in our infantile condition. Some of us are babes in Christ, still wetting ourselves, filling our diapers to the amusement and chagrin of the adults in the room, and banging our heads on the coffee table as we learn to walk. Some of us are old and wise and grayed from years of the education and disciplines and battles of life in Christ. And then there are those of us stuck in the rebellious years of our teens. But all belong to God and are in line for the inheritance by virtue of sonship.

 

[Judge Hardcastle]

So is there a state where you can sin in belief?

Of course there is.
Everyone who is believing in God, but who sins is sinning from a state of belief in God.
Growth from sinning to not sinning is a journey, not an either/or proposition of perfection vs. not being perfect.
Peter speaks of this progression in the traits of the Spirit in 2 Peter 1:8.

8For if you possess these qualities in increasing measure, they will keep you from being ineffective and unproductive in your knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.

The Christian life is about progression, not absolutes. Progression in the traits of the Spirit ensures that you will receive a grand reception into the kingdom of God (see vs. 10-11). It is the sign that confirms that you are indeed called and elected.

After all, you are a believe, yet you say you still sin. I don't.

If you are sure you absolutely never sin, I'm not going to take that away from you. I don't believe you, but I won't try to take that away from you. After all you're 79 years old, lol (I'm no spring chicken either, so I can tease, lol).

I have found that people who insist they never sin have a somewhat different definition of what constitutes sin and are sinless that way.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

You need to wake up and smell the coffee.
Born again believers still sin.

No child is born grown up and looking and acting like his dad. It's no different with the children of God. We grow up into the image of our Father, not start out in it, though surely we can see the image of our father to whom we belong even in our infantile condition. Some of us are babes in Christ, still wetting ourselves, filling our diapers to the amusement and chagrin of the adults in the room, and banging our heads on the coffee table as we learn to walk. Some of us are old and wise and grayed from years of the education and disciplines and battles of life in Christ. And then there are those of us stuck in the rebellious years of our teens. But all belong to God and are in line for the inheritance by virtue of sonship.

This is why you must learn the context of Scripture when it teaches on sin. It is also why you cannot be believed when speaking in ignorance of the types of sin when you believe "sin is sin."

Why does 1 John 3:9 say a born again Christian cannot commit sin? And yet you say you do?

 

[1stCenturyLady]

Of course there is.
Everyone who is believing in God, but who sins is sinning from a state of belief in God.
Growth from sinning to not sinning is a journey, not an either/or proposition of perfection vs. not being perfect.
Peter speaks of this progression in the traits of the Spirit in 2 Peter 1:8.

8For if you possess these qualities in increasing measure, they will keep you from being ineffective and unproductive in your knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.

The Christian life is about progression, not absolutes. Progression in the traits of the Spirit ensures that you will receive a grand reception into the kingdom of God (see vs. 10-11). It is the sign that confirms that you are indeed called and elected.

How can you murder someone in a state of belief? Once born again of the Spirit do you believe murder can be forgiven? Murder is willful.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

Of course there is.
Everyone who is believing in God, but who sins is sinning from a state of belief in God.
Growth from sinning to not sinning is a journey, not an either/or proposition of perfection vs. not being perfect.
Peter speaks of this progression in the traits of the Spirit in 2 Peter 1:8.

8For if you possess these qualities in increasing measure, they will keep you from being ineffective and unproductive in your knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.

The Christian life is about progression, not absolutes. Progression in the traits of the Spirit ensures that you will receive a grand reception into the kingdom of God (see vs. 10-11). It is the sign that confirms that you are indeed called and elected.



If you are sure you absolutely never sin, I'm not going to take that away from you. I don't believe you, but I won't try to take that away from you. After all you're 79 years old, lol (I'm no spring chicken either, so I can tease, lol).

I have found that people who insist they never sin have a somewhat different definition of what constitutes sin and are sinless that way.

Hebrews 12:2 says that it is not us but JESUS who is the Author and Finisher of our faith. Do you believe Philippians 1:6? being confident of this very thing, that He who has begun a good work in you will complete it until the day of Jesus Christ. Did you know that the gospel is the power of God?

I bet your pastor would never be caught dead teaching 2 Peter 1:10-11. He wouldn't be believed.

10 Therefore, brethren, be even more diligent to make your call and election sure, for if you do these things you will never stumble; 11 for so an entrance will be supplied to you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

He is why I don't sin.

 

[Judge Hardcastle]

David is Old Covenant. Those sins were only covered.

No.
As I said before, the sins of murder and adultery are NOT covered by the law. David stood condemned by the law with no remedy available from the law. No provision is made in the law for forgiveness for murder and adultery. His only hope of life came from the forgiveness of God available outside of and apart from the law. Paul is using David, a person condemned under the old covenant of law, to illustrate and prove the existence of the forgiveness that is available apart from and before the law and which has always existed and which has now been revealed in the appearing of Christ.

The New Covenant of the Spirit is where sin is TAKEN AWAY.

That's why Paul used David to illustrate the forgiveness that is only available through the eternal ministry and sacrifice of Christ and which should be relied on instead of the law in which there is no forgiveness of sins unto death. He is an example to ardent defenders of the way of the law to get to God that we are forgiven by the grace and mercy of God, not the law. A grace that comes by faith in God not the letter of the law.

John 1:17
17For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.

2 Timothy 1:9-10
9 This grace was given us in Christ Jesus before the beginning of time, 10but it has now been revealed through the appearing of our Savior, Christ Jesus

Hebrews 13:20
20who through the blood of the eternal covenant brought back from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great Shepherd of the sheep

 

[Judge Hardcastle]

Why does 1 John 3:9 say a born again Christian cannot commit sin? And yet you say you do?

Because we know from the verb tense and mood of 'sin' in 1 John 3:6 that he is speaking of a present tense habitual lifestyle of unrepentant sinning, not the occasional failure of the born again believer.

 

[Judge Hardcastle]

Hebrews 12:2 says that it is not us but JESUS who is the Author and Finisher of our faith. Do you believe Philippians 1:6? being confident of this very thing, that He who has begun a good work in you will complete it until the day of Jesus Christ. Did you know that the gospel is the power of God?

Yes, I believe that.
It sure isn't me completing the work of increasing all the more in the traits of the Spirit. I don't have the power to do that. No one does. It's only by his Spirit being in union with mine through faith in his forgiveness and the promise of life that his work is being completed in me.

I bet your pastor would never be caught dead teaching 2 Peter 1:10-11. He wouldn't be believed.

10 Therefore, brethren, be even more diligent to make your call and election sure, for if you do these things you will never stumble; 11 for so an entrance will be supplied to you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

You can't ignore the fact that he is speaking of increasing in the traits of the Spirit, not walking in them flawlessly. As long as you are increasing in the traits of the Spirit in your journey to the perfection of Christ you will never stumble so as to fall but will be richly received into the kingdom of God.

He is why I don't sin.

He is the reason you don't continue in sin, but rather are, and have been, increasing in the traits of the Spirit.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

You can't ignore the fact that he is speaking of increasing in the traits of the Spirit, not walking in them flawlessly. As long as you are increasing in the traits of the Spirit in your journey to the perfection of Christ you will never stumble so as to fall but will be richly received into the kingdom of God.

I see you do not know what "never stumble" means. It IS flawlessly. It is the power of the Creator of the Universe to take away all desire to sin, hate or stumble. Yes, it is a process to get there, but what you need to believe is that Jesus WILL get us there. Even Paul who in many letters admitted he was not perfect, but in his last letter he had "finished the race."

 

[ProDeo]

1Joh 4:15 Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God.
1Joh 4:16 So we have come to know and to believe the love that God has for us. God is love, and whoever abides in love abides in God, and God abides in him.
1Joh 4:17 By this is love perfected with us, so that we may have confidence for the day of judgment, because as he is so also are we in this world.
1Joh 4:18 There is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear. For fear has to do with punishment, and whoever fears has not been perfected in love.

1Joh 4:19 We love because he first loved us.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Where is the fear ?

You answered with :

Joshua 24:14

"Now therefore fear the LORD, and serve him in sincerity and in truth: and put away the gods which your fathers served on the other side of the flood, and in Egypt; and serve ye the LORD."

Deut. 6:13
"Thou shalt fear the LORD thy God, and serve him, and shalt swear by his name."

Deut.6:24
"And the LORD commanded us to do all these statutes, to fear the LORD our God, for our good always, that he might preserve us alive, as it is at this day."

Deut. 8:6
"Therefore thou shalt keep the commandments of the LORD thy God, to walk in his ways, and to fear him."

Ps.61:5
"For thou, O God, hast heard my vows: thou hast given me the heritage of those that fear thy name."

Ps 34:9
"O fear the LORD, ye his saints: for there is no want to them that fear him."

Ps 34:11
"Come, ye children, hearken unto me: I will teach you the fear of the LORD."

Ps 33:18
"Behold, the eye of the LORD is upon them that fear him, upon them that hope in his mercy;"

Deut. 10:12
"And now, Israel, what doth the LORD thy God require of thee, but to fear the LORD thy God, to walk in all his ways, and to love him, and to serve the LORD thy God with all thy heart and with all thy soul,"

Deut. 28:58
"If thou wilt not observe to do all the words of this law that are written in this book, that thou mayest fear this glorious and fearful name, THE LORD THY GOD;"

Ps 19:9
"The fear of the LORD is clean, enduring for ever: the judgments of the LORD are true and righteous altogether."

Ps 25:14
"The secret of the LORD is with them that fear him; and he will shew them his covenant."

Acts 9:31
"Then had the churches rest throughout all Judaea and Galilee and Samaria, and were edified; and walking in the fear of the Lord, and in the comfort of the Holy Ghost, were multiplied."

Luke 1:50
"And his mercy is on them that fear him from generation to generation."

Rev. 19:5
"And a voice came out of the throne, saying, Praise our God, all ye his servants, and ye that fear him, both small and great."

These are a few of the many verses that talk of the fear of the Lord. Like I said, do your own study and come to your own conclusions. Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

An attempt to weaken what the apostle John said ?

He said -

1. so that we may have confidence for the day of judgment

2. For fear has to do with punishment.

So it is possible, yes ?

Did john feared the Lord while writing - so that we may have confidence for the day of judgment ?

Rhetoric question.

Blessings, brother!

Blessing to you as well sister and sorry for skipping the rest of your post, 1John 4:15-19 is crucial to discuss and righty dividing the Word of God, not just one part of the total message.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

I have found that people who insist they never sin have a somewhat different definition of what constitutes sin and are sinless that way.

My life is not the normal, run of the mill, life. Back in 2000 I was driving in the Arizona desert on my way back to California to a Spirit-filled Living Conference, and God spoke to me and said, "I am giving you the office of Teacher. When I arrived at the conference, my old pastor anointed me for the office of Teacher.

The next year I went to the same conference, and this time I received a prophecy from one of the speakers, so it was on tape. I bought the tape and played it all the way back home to Arizona. There wasn't one line of the prophecy that I related to. I couldn't see how any of it could possibly come to pass. But when I got home, the first line of the prophecy came to pass.

It was a long prophecy and over the past 25 years each line of the prophecy came to pass in order. And the last line was that God was bringing me into a new level of obedience. 2 Peter 1:5-7 is the normal path that Jesus as the Finisher of our faith brings us through. That new level of obedience God brought me to makes it impossible for me to sin. He is in total control.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

Of course there is.
Everyone who is believing in God, but who sins is sinning from a state of belief in God.
Growth from sinning to not sinning is a journey, not an either/or proposition of perfection vs. not being perfect.
Peter speaks of this progression in the traits of the Spirit in 2 Peter 1:8.

These sins are sin not unto death; they are NOT sins unto death that a born again Christian cannot commit. They are the sins of 1 John 1:7. Those are not sins unto death as Luther thought.

 

[Laurina]

You answered with :

Yes, I answered with:

"Joshua 24:14
"Now therefore fear the LORD, and serve him in sincerity and in truth: and put away the gods which your fathers served on the other side of the flood, and in Egypt; and serve ye the LORD."

Deut. 6:13
"Thou shalt fear the LORD thy God, and serve him, and shalt swear by his name."

Deut.6:24
"And the LORD commanded us to do all these statutes, to fear the LORD our God, for our good always, that he might preserve us alive, as it is at this day."

Deut. 8:6
"Therefore thou shalt keep the commandments of the LORD thy God, to walk in his ways, and to fear him."

Ps.61:5
"For thou, O God, hast heard my vows: thou hast given me the heritage of those that fear thy name."

Ps 34:9
"O fear the LORD, ye his saints: for there is no want to them that fear him."

Ps 34:11
"Come, ye children, hearken unto me: I will teach you the fear of the LORD."

Ps 33:18
"Behold, the eye of the LORD is upon them that fear him, upon them that hope in his mercy;"

Deut. 10:12
"And now, Israel, what doth the LORD thy God require of thee, but to fear the LORD thy God, to walk in all his ways, and to love him, and to serve the LORD thy God with all thy heart and with all thy soul,"

Deut. 28:58
"If thou wilt not observe to do all the words of this law that are written in this book, that thou mayest fear this glorious and fearful name, THE LORD THY GOD;"

Ps 19:9
"The fear of the LORD is clean, enduring for ever: the judgments of the LORD are true and righteous altogether."

Ps 25:14
"The secret of the LORD is with them that fear him; and he will shew them his covenant."

Acts 9:31
"Then had the churches rest throughout all Judaea and Galilee and Samaria, and were edified; and walking in the fear of the Lord, and in the comfort of the Holy Ghost, were multiplied."

Luke 1:50
"And his mercy is on them that fear him from generation to generation."

Rev. 19:5
"And a voice came out of the throne, saying, Praise our God, all ye his servants, and ye that fear him, both small and great."

These are a few of the many verses that talk of the fear of the Lord. Like I said, do your own study and come to your own conclusions. Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

Blessings, brother!"

An attempt to weaken what the apostle John said ?

I can't possibly (and wouldn't want to) weaken what the apostle John said.
At the same time, the apostle John can't weaken what the writers of the OT says, or Luke, or the author of the book of Acts, or what he himself wrote in Revelations.
...and to be clear, the fear of the Lord (which we are instructed and encouraged to learn many times) is different than just fear.

He said -

1. so that we may have confidence for the day of judgment

2. For fear has to do with punishment.

What is fear?? Punishment for loving anything (as in your life, or someone else's) more than God?

So it is possible, yes ?

Is what possible? Confidence or fear? Sorry, I'm not sure what you are asking.

Did john feared the Lord while writing

Yes, he did fear the Lord!!!, (but not while writing...he was only told to write in verse 19) UNTIL Jesus told him to, "Fear not;" in verse 17.

Rev 1:14-17
14His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire;
15And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters.
16And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength.
17And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:

...But back to 1John 4....
"16And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him.
17¶Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world."

"as he is, so are we in this world." I take this to mean: holy. As He is (holy), so are we in this world (holy only because "he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him." Holiness is about location, location, location.

Now, I want to bring your attention to Hebrews 10:30-31...
"30For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
31It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God."

Now both passages (1 John 4 and Hebrews 10) are true. Is one more true than the other? Is it not a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God IF one is holy because love has been perfected in them?
I don't believe so. I know how I reconcile the 2 of them, but how do you???

- so that we may have confidence for the day of judgment ?

My confidence is in the character of God, not in myself. I will get what I deserve from the Lord and His judgements are just/righteous.
And, until the Lord tells me to fear not, I will fear Him, just like the apostle John did, as did many other biblical characters/authors. Fear of the Lord doesn't mean you don't love Him. It means you have learned wisdom and perhaps some of His secrets.

Rhetoric question.

I answered it anyways.

Blessing to you as well sister and sorry for skipping the rest of your post, 1John 4:15-19 is crucial to discuss and righty dividing the Word of God, not just one part of the total message.

Blessings! Awaiting your reply.