SLAIN IN THE SPIRIT?

[StanJ]

Act 19:1 And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples,
Act 19:2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.
Act 19:3 And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.
Act 19:4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.
Act 19:5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

Do you know many people who have been baptized by John the Baptist, these days? If so, I'd love to meet them...

I gave you the SPECIFIC context in verses 1-7 Barrd and you actually end up avoiding the that context. Can really discuss with someone who won't be genuine about it now can I?

While Apollos was at Corinth, Paul took the road through the interior and arrived at Ephesus. There he found some disciples 2 and asked them, “Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?”
They answered, “No, we have not even heard that there is a Holy Spirit.”
3 So Paul asked, “Then what baptism did you receive?”
“John’s baptism,” they replied.
4 Paul said, “John’s baptism was a baptism of repentance. He told the people to believe in the one coming after him, that is, in Jesus.” 5 On hearing this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 6 When Paul placed his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they spoke in tongues and prophesied. 7 There were about twelve men in all.

If you are not deliberately deflecting, then IMO, your lack of understanding has to do with the KJV and how you don't really get the vernacular. Either way, it does become taxing.

 

[Barrd]

I gave you the SPECIFIC context in verses 1-7 Barrd and you actually end up avoiding the that context. Can really discuss with someone who won't be genuine about it now can I?

While Apollos was at Corinth, Paul took the road through the interior and arrived at Ephesus. There he found some disciples 2 and asked them, “Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?”
They answered, “No, we have not even heard that there is a Holy Spirit.”
3 So Paul asked, “Then what baptism did you receive?”
“John’s baptism,” they replied.
4 Paul said, “John’s baptism was a baptism of repentance. He told the people to believe in the one coming after him, that is, in Jesus.” 5 On hearing this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 6 When Paul placed his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they spoke in tongues and prophesied. 7 There were about twelve men in all.

If you are not deliberately deflecting, then IMO, your lack of understanding has to do with the KJV and how you don't really get the vernacular. Either way, it does become taxing.

My point, Stan, was that Apollos and company had been baptized for the remission of sin, which was John's baptism. This was 2,000 years ago, during the time when the church was being built.
This is 2,000 years later, and I'm pretty sure John hasn't baptized anyone in a very long time. Believers today are all being baptized in the Name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

When Paul placed his hands on them, they received the gift of the Holy Spirit. Yay! And they began to speak in tongues...evidently all twelve of them. I'm thinking that, in that place at that time, the ability to speak in other languages was a pretty important gift, if these men were to "go into all the world".

But you know what I do not see in this passage of scripture?
I do not see Apollos et. al. falling over as Paul lays hands on them.
Is that because Paul had neglected to provide "catchers" or bring along blankets for them?

 

[Barrd]

NOT ONCE, please note NOT ONCE ​have I said that being slain in the spirit is a gift of the Spirit. This comment shows very clearly you have the penchance to put your own spin on things and your mind is shut off to the truth, that is why your comments are not worth the paper they are written on.

Not a gift of the Holy Spirit....okay, fair enough. So, where did it come from?


Of course, NOT ONCE, please note NOT ONCE have you shown me even one example of a believer being knocked off of his or her feet by the power of God in the Bible...

 

[StanJ]

My point, Stan, was that Apollos and company had been baptized for the remission of sin, which was John's baptism. This was 2,000 years ago, during the time when the church was being built.
This is 2,000 years later, and I'm pretty sure John hasn't baptized anyone in a very long time. Believers today are all being baptized in the Name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

When Paul placed his hands on them, they received the gift of the Holy Spirit. Yay! And they began to speak in tongues...evidently all twelve of them. I'm thinking that, in that place at that time, the ability to speak in other languages was a pretty important gift, if these men were to "go into all the world".

But you know what I do not see in this passage of scripture?
I do not see Apollos et. al. falling over as Paul lays hands on them.
Is that because Paul neglected to provide "catchers" or bring along blankets for them?

No Barrd, and in FACT, even though I quoted the applicable verses you missed the point. Paul said that baptism was for repentance. After they repented they followed/became disciples of Jesus. They never received the Baptism of the Holy Spirit. Neither had the believers in Acts 10 that Peter preached to and yet in both cases the experience was SEPERATE from salvation. The Baptism of the Holy Spirit is NOT a gift, it is commanded of Jesus and a result of faith in His command. The Holy Spirit imparts the gifts as Paul teaches in 1 Cor 12:7-11, where he ends by stating; "He distributes them to each one, just as He determines."

Again STOP focusing on the bad parts of Christianity and focus on the good parts. You will never learn to accept and understand the Holy Spirit if you refuse to do so.

 

[Barrd]

No Barrd, and in FACT, even though I quoted the applicable verses you missed the point. Paul said that baptism was for repentance. After they repented they followed/became disciples of Jesus. They never received the Baptism of the Holy Spirit. Neither had the believers in Acts 10 that Peter preached to and yet in both cases the experience was SEPERATE from salvation. The Baptism of the Holy Spirit is NOT a gift, it is commanded of Jesus and a result of faith in His command. The Holy Spirit imparts the gifts as Paul teaches in 1 Cor 12:7-11, where he ends by stating; "He distributes them to each one, just as He determines."

Again STOP focusing on the bad parts of Christianity and focus on the good parts. You will never learn to accept and understand the Holy Spirit if you refuse to do so.

Okay, Stan....
All my Christmas company has gone home, and this house is quiet and empty for the first time in weeks.
And I am bored out of my skull....so I guess I'm fair game this evening.
You have the floor with no chance of a grandkid interrupting you with queries about Christmas cookies or Santa Claus.

So, tell me how you think I am "focusing on the bad parts of Christianity". And tell me about the "good parts".
I've told you that have experienced a real miracle. I am alive right now because God sent an angel to me...if you like, I will tell about it tonight, since I've nothing better to do.
And I also have my own gift of the Spirit.
In fact, I suspect that I have more than one....but that might just be pride talking...

Anyway, if you've the time, talk to me, Stan....and I will listen...

 

[StanJ]

Okay, Stan....
All my Christmas company has gone home, and this house is quiet and empty for the first time in weeks.
And I am bored out of my skull....so I guess I'm fair game this evening.
You have the floor with no chance of a grandkid interrupting you with queries about Christmas cookies or Santa Claus.

So, tell me how you think I am "focusing on the bad parts of Christianity". And tell me about the "good parts".
I've told you that have experienced a real miracle. I am alive right now because God sent an angel to me...if you like, I will tell about it tonight, since I've nothing better to do.
And I also have my own gift of the Spirit.
In fact, I suspect that I have more than one....but that might just be pride talking...

Anyway, if you've the time, talk to me, Stan....and I will listen...

Well IMO, all that family can often result in TOO MUCH of a good thing.

Because you keep bringing up all the negative issues you['ve heard about or even experienced. Nobody here so far excepts those as kosher, not that I've seen, so why continually make them an example of what's wrong with charisma?

The Crusades were done in the name of Jesus Christ and the church but only people resisting God will bring them up today. This is pretty much the same thing you are doing by bring up all these negatives. They do NOT represent true Pentecostalism or Charismatics, which BTW are two different groups and shouldn't be lumped together to define a sole theology.

 

[Barrd]

Well IMO, all that family can often result in TOO MUCH of a good thing.

Because you keep bringing up all the negative issues you['ve heard about or even experienced. Nobody here so far excepts those as kosher, not that I've seen, so why continually make them an example of what's wrong with charisma?

The Crusades were done in the name of Jesus Christ and the church but only people resisting God will bring them up today. This is pretty much the same thing you are doing by bring up all these negatives. They do NOT represent true Pentecostalism or Charismatics, which BTW are two different groups and shouldn't be lumped together to define a sole theology.

All that family can definitely result in too much of a good thing...
I look forward to the holidays every year. I love to cook, and I'm pretty darn good at it, if I say so myself. They come for the turkey and the pies and the delicious Christmas cookies, and he home made egg nog and stuffing and my own special Christmas fruit cake that features cherries and walnuts and chocolate chips and raisins in a delicious pastry...yumm! And we decorate and ride to look at Christmas lights, and sing carols and exchange gifts....whew. It is wonderful...but I'm almost as glad to see them go as I was to see them arrive.

Anyway, you tell me that I keep bringing up things that I have seen and heard that are negative. But, Stan, all I have seen is pretty much negative. Whether anyone accepts my accounts as "kosher" is completely beside the point.

However, you explained your point, and I agree...I keep bringing up negative issues.

Then, you were going to tell me about the "good parts" that I am apparently missing? What good parts would these be? You have caught me in a pretty good mood....show me these "good parts", please.

I'm not sure exactly what the Crusades have to do with this discussion?

 

[StanJ]

All that family can definitely result in too much of a good thing...
I look forward to the holidays every year. I love to cook, and I'm pretty darn good at it, if I say so myself. They come for the turkey and the pies and the delicious Christmas cookies, and he home made egg nog and stuffing and my own special Christmas fruit cake that features cherries and walnuts and chocolate chips and raisins in a delicious pastry...yumm! And we decorate and ride to look at Christmas lights, and sing carols and exchange gifts....whew. It is wonderful...but I'm almost as glad to see them go as I was to see them arrive.

Anyway, you tell me that I keep bringing up things that I have seen and heard that are negative. But, Stan, all I have seen is pretty much negative. Whether anyone accepts my accounts as "kosher" is completely beside the point.

However, you explained your point, and I agree...I keep bringing up negative issues.

Then, you were going to tell me about the "good parts" that I am apparently missing? What good parts would these be? You have caught me in a pretty good mood....show me these "good parts", please.

I'm not sure exactly what the Crusades have to do with this discussion?

The good parts are when you're living them Barrd. I personally NEVER experienced these bad parts you keep referring to. I know of them and have heard of them, but never experienced them, nor do I personally know any who have. They do NOT define the normal Pentecostal or Charismatic experience. The bottom line is in Isaiah 55:11(NIV)
No offense intended, but I sometimes wonder about your apparent obtuseness?

 

[marksman]

Not a gift of the Holy Spirit....okay, fair enough. So, where did it come from?


Of course, NOT ONCE, please note NOT ONCE have you shown me even one example of a believer being knocked off of his or her feet by the power of God in the Bible...

And you haven't shown us one single verse in the New Testament where the church in the New Testament built a cathedral or sanctuary but you're OK with said action today.

 

[marksman]

The good parts are when you're living them Barrd. I personally NEVER experienced these bad parts you keep referring to. I know of them and have heard of them, but never experienced them, nor do I personally know any who have. They do NOT define the normal Pentecostal or Charismatic experience. The bottom line is in Isaiah 55:11(NIV)
No offense intended, but I sometimes wonder about your apparent obtuseness?

So do I Stan but we should not be surprised as we have a woman here trying to teach men when it is expressly forbidden in scripture. But then she has a tendency to pick and choose what she believes or rejects so one can make up things as you go along.

 

[marksman]

However, you explained your point, and I agree...I keep bringing up negative issues.


Then, you were going to tell me about the "good parts" that I am apparently missing? What good parts would these be? You have caught me in a pretty good mood....show me these "good parts", please.

 

[Barrd]

And you haven't shown us one single verse in the New Testament where the church in the New Testament built a cathedral or sanctuary but you're OK with said action today.

I don't know about where you live, but around here, a "small" church has around 100 members. Most congregations are much larger than that.
I don't think it is unreasonable for a congregation to build itself a place where all the members might come together for worship...and I do see Biblical precedent in the building of the Temple, not to mention smaller synagogues for the people to meet in.
You are splitting hairs here, thinking you are making a point.
The act of a desperate man....

 

[Barrd]

The good parts are when you're living them Barrd. I personally NEVER experienced these bad parts you keep referring to. I know of them and have heard of them, but never experienced them, nor do I personally know any who have. They do NOT define the normal Pentecostal or Charismatic experience. The bottom line is in Isaiah 55:11(NIV)
No offense intended, but I sometimes wonder about your apparent obtuseness?

You do know of these things, then, Stan. Someone, then, is experiencing them. Something to think about.

Isa 55:11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.
What in the world does this have to do with the "charismatic experience"?

You think I am dull-witted....that's almost funny, considering that I have about the same impression of just about anyone dumb enough to fall backwards just because some preacher touched them.
I see no change in these people. They may be Sunday Saints....but they are still Saturday Sinners.

 

[marksman]

However, you explained your point, and I agree...I keep bringing up negative issues.

Then, you were going to tell me about the "good parts" that I am apparently missing? What good parts would these be? You have caught me in a pretty good mood....show me these "good parts", please.

it is clear that you are not at all interested in the good parts as I have spoken of several in my posts to illustrate the point so it is obvious the good parts are bypassed by you as they do not fit in with your theology. This suggests you only read and hear what you want to read and hear. If you had read my good parts you would not need to ask about the good parts.

Derek Prince, who I know personally and is a giant in the Kingdom of God because he has degrees in several ancient languages including Hebrew and Greek and was a Professor of Philosophy at Cambridge University has written about 60 books which have gone to nearly every country in the world. He dealt with subjects that were groundbreaking in the area of the supernatural. Not only did he write about it he lived it. It was commonplace for him to pray for people to be set free from the power of satan and when they were they often fell to the ground.

​Knowing Derek as I do, he would not have anything to do with the counterfeit and he certainly would not use satan to have people released from the power of satan. Now, as I know Derek as I do, I know he is telling the truth so that means you are not. He has runs on the board, you do not.

Most of the time you sit on the sidelines telling everyone they are wrong and you are right. Derek did not do that. He demonstrated the truth of what he wrote so if you had a question as to what he taught, all you had to do is watch what he did. What he taught and what he did confirmed one another.

So you will have to forgive us if we ignore your negativity and stay with what is taught from scripture by an anointed man/men who backed up everything he/they said with what he/they did.

Oh, one other thing. The 1902 Azusa St. revival began because of one woman who did what God told her to do. A half a dozen people were praying and God told her to tap the table in front of her six times. She did that and the Spirit of God fell on them and the revival began.

Now, I don't see anywhere in scripture where we are commanded to do this, so by your reckoning the Azusa St. revival was a fake because the scripture does not tell us to tap the table six times. In fact, every revival must be fake according to you because there is no mention of revival in scripture at all.

Come to think of it the 1906 Welsh Revival must have been a fake because the Spirit of God was so thick on the ground that men who were walking along the street to go to the pub fell to the ground and were convicted of sin and were saved.

But of course that was fake according to you as people don't fall down when convicted of sin.

 

[Barrd]

So do I Stan but we should not be surprised as we have a woman here trying to teach men when it is expressly forbidden in scripture. But then she has a tendency to pick and choose what she believes or rejects so one can make up things as you go along.

And yet, Paul commended several women who served in the church, even naming one gal an apostle...

Rom 16:1 I commend unto you Phebe our sister, which is a servant of the church which is at Cenchrea:

Rom 16:3 Greet Priscilla and Aquila my helpers in Christ Jesus:

Rom 16:6 Greet Mary, who bestowed much labour on us.

Rom 16:7 Salute Andronicus and Junia, my kinsmen, and my fellowprisoners, who are of note among the apostles, who also were in Christ before me.

Rom 16:12 Salute Tryphena and Tryphosa, who labour in the Lord. Salute the beloved Persis, which laboured much in the Lord.

Rom 16:15 Salute Philologus, and Julia, Nereus, and his sister, and Olympas, and all the saints which are with them.

Gee, evidently, Paul knew lots of gals who taught men.

 

[Barrd]

it is clear that you are not at all interested in the good parts as I have spoken of several in my posts to illustrate the point so it is obvious the good parts are bypassed by you as they do not fit in with your theology. This suggests you only read and hear what you want to read and hear. If you had read my good parts you would not need to ask about the good parts.

Derek Prince, who I know personally and is a giant in the Kingdom of God because he has degrees in several ancient languages including Hebrew and Greek and was a Professor of Philosophy at Cambridge University has written about 60 books which have gone to nearly every country in the world. He dealt with subjects that were groundbreaking in the area of the supernatural. Not only did he write about it he lived it. It was commonplace for him to pray for people to be set free from the power of satan and when they were they often fell to the ground.

​Knowing Derek as I do, he would not have anything to do with the counterfeit and he certainly would not use satan to have people released from the power of satan. Now, as I know Derek as I do, I know he is telling the truth so that means you are not. He has runs on the board, you do not.

Most of the time you sit on the sidelines telling everyone they are wrong and you are right. Derek did not do that. He demonstrated the truth of what he wrote so if you had a question as to what he taught, all you had to do is watch what he did. What he taught and what he did confirmed one another.

So you will have to forgive us if we ignore your negativity and stay with what is taught from scripture by an anointed man/men who backed up everything he/they said with what he/they did.

Derek Prince?
Never heard of him.

 

[StanJ]

You do know of these things, then, Stan. Someone, then, is experiencing them. Something to think about.

Isa 55:11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.
What in the world does this have to do with the "charismatic experience"?

You think I am dull-witted....that's almost funny, considering that I have about the same impression of just about anyone dumb enough to fall backwards just because some preacher touched them.
I see no change in these people. They may be Sunday Saints....but they are still Saturday Sinners.

Yes, as many experience much false teaching.

It means no matter how bad the person is, God's word will always be fruitful and return to Him productively.

No, I said your APPARENT obtuseness. You use it when it suits you like above for Is 55:11

It's not up to YOU to see change Barrd. It's up to people to change and for YOU to look at the log in your own eye.

 

[StanJ]

So do I Stan but we should not be surprised as we have a woman here trying to teach men when it is expressly forbidden in scripture. But then she has a tendency to pick and choose what she believes or rejects so one can make up things as you go along.

I'm afraid that is a bad misconception marksman. What you refer to in 1 Tim 2 is in the context of marriage, or do you really think women are saved by having babies?

Paul said;
Submit to one another... Eph 5:21
Teach one another...Col 3:16
Greet Priscilla and Aquila, my co-workers in Christ Jesus....Rom 16:3

The issue is not that women can teach, it is what ANYONE teaches, man or woman.

 

[Barrd]

Yes, as many experience much false teaching.

I think that is my whole point, Stan. I believe, to the depths of my being, that "slain in the spirit" is a false teaching. There is nothing in the Bible at all anything like it, and there would be, if it were a real spiritual experience. Jesus never knocked a believer off of his or her feet. Neither did the Apostles. Paul is completely silent on the subject, although he does talk about people being baptized for the dead.
I believe in the gifts of the Spirit. I even believe in tongues. I believe in the power of healing. These things are real.
And I also know that, for every gift that God gives to us, Satan has a counterfeit.

People are hungry for the Lord, Stan. Of course they are. And well they should be.

But I honestly believe that Charismatics are filling up on cotton candy...no nourishment, no substance...just empty puffs of sugar.
A wicked generation, seeking after a sign, believing in false teachers with signs and wonders that, if it were possible, could deceive even the elect...

Now, why do you suppose Jesus would think it necessary to warn His followers of these kinds of things??

It means no matter how bad the person is, God's word will always be fruitful and return to Him productively.

Yes, thank you for explaining that, Stan.
But what does it have to do with what we are discussing?

No, I said your APPARENT obtuseness. You use it when it suits you like above for Is 55:11

Not to change the subject...but have you read any of the stuff I posted to my blog?
Just curious.
The point is, Stan, that I am not stupid.
I really want to see you connect Isaiah 55:11 to the charismatic "slain in the spirit".

It's not up to YOU to see change Barrd. It's up to people to change and for YOU to look at the log in your own eye.

I seem to recall having read somewhere that we would know "by their fruits". Obviously, one cannot gather grapes from thorns...

 

[StanJ]

I think that is my whole point, Stan. I believe, to the depths of my being, that "slain in the spirit" is a false teaching. There is nothing in the Bible at all anything like it, and there would be, if it were a real spiritual experience. Jesus never knocked a believer off of his or her feet. Neither did the Apostles. Paul is completely silent on the subject, although he does talk about people being baptized for the dead.
I believe in the gifts of the Spirit. I even believe in tongues. I believe in the power of healing. These things are real.
And I also know that, for every gift that God gives to us, Satan has a counterfeit.

People are hungry for the Lord, Stan. Of course they are. And well they should be.

But I honestly believe that Charismatics are filling up on cotton candy...no nourishment, no substance...just empty puffs of sugar.
A wicked generation, seeking after a sign, believing in false teachers with signs and wonders that, if it were possible, could deceive even the elect...

Now, why do you suppose Jesus would think it necessary to warn His followers of these kinds of things??

Yes, thank you for explaining that, Stan.
But what does it have to do with what we are discussing?

Not to change the subject...but have you read any of the stuff I posted to my blog?
Just curious.
The point is, Stan, that I am not stupid.
I really want to see you connect Isaiah 55:11 to the charismatic "slain in the spirit".

I seem to recall having read somewhere that we would know "by their fruits". Obviously, one cannot gather grapes from thorns...

I've heard that same phrase I have highlighted above, used many times by Mormon Missionaries. It's NOT a valid or acceptable reason as I'm sure you would concur with. You were given a few examples of what God has done in the Bible, so why would you assume that He couldn't or wouldn't do that with those that really sought Him? When I see people go down hard and have no "catchers", hit carpeted cement floors with a bang and have NO residuals after effects other than pure peace in God, I am not inclined to conclude those people were faking it, and I do not judge just because the Bible doesn't depict the exact same thing. John 20:30 should give you a perspective on just how much the Bible needs to tells us.

We all start on milk Barrd, and move on from there. That was Luke's who point about moving on TO MATURITY.

I can't MAKE you see logical conclusions if you don't want to Barrd and being obtuse, deliberately or not, does not imply one is stupid. Maybe you should read the definition.

You're absolutely right, we DO know them by their fruits, or obvious lack thereof, but we also know good fruit from bad fruit.

I'm not going to try and force you to accept anything but the following link has some good info....IF you are open to read it.
If not, you won't ever be.
http://www.charismamag.com/spirit/supernatural/17935-the-biblical-support-for-falling-out-in-the-spirit