SLAIN IN THE SPIRIT?

[Wormwood]

StanJ,

I appreciate the conversation. I think we will have to agree to disagree on this one, brother. Have a blessed Thanksgiving weekend!

 

[Born_Again]

I guess we all have our own testimonies. Personally, when I was saved, I had tears of sadness turn to tears of Joy and yes, I started laughing with joy. I felt myself freed from the hold of the enemy. (I wasn't the greatest person in the world prior to that moment) I was held by the things of this earth and was taken by the throws of alcohol and other unsavory things... But in that moment, I could literally feel myself being freed from all of it. Now, that being said, I will gladly elaborate on the moment of salvation. I felt the battle going on inside of me at the very moment. Up until then, I had done a lot of the devils work. Darn near a champion. lol God called me to Him and the battle was on. I felt a release of pressure (burden) at the moment I was saved. I was at peace, knowing I was renewed and wasn't that person anymore. No, I have never felt the urge to hit the floor and not be able to move but I can at least say salvation is real and perhaps we experience in a different way.

The bible doesn't say specifically what will happen or how you will react to it. So, it may not have examples of people hitting the ground but it also doesn't say they wont.

BA

 

[StanJ]

StanJ,

I appreciate the conversation. I think we will have to agree to disagree on this one, brother. Have a blessed Thanksgiving weekend!

I understand WW...as all things do seem o go in cycles, I'm sure this will come up again in the future.
God Bless, and I already had my thanksgiving back in October.
But enjoy yours.

 

[Barrd]

I guess we all have our own testimonies. Personally, when I was saved, I had tears of sadness turn to tears of Joy and yes, I started laughing with joy. I felt myself freed from the hold of the enemy. (I wasn't the greatest person in the world prior to that moment) I was held by the things of this earth and was taken by the throws of alcohol and other unsavory things... But in that moment, I could literally feel myself being freed from all of it. Now, that being said, I will gladly elaborate on the moment of salvation. I felt the battle going on inside of me at the very moment. Up until then, I had done a lot of the devils work. Darn near a champion. lol God called me to Him and the battle was on. I felt a release of pressure (burden) at the moment I was saved. I was at peace, knowing I was renewed and wasn't that person anymore. No, I have never felt the urge to hit the floor and not be able to move but I can at least say salvation is real and perhaps we experience in a different way.

The bible doesn't say specifically what will happen or how you will react to it. So, it may not have examples of people hitting the ground but it also doesn't say they wont.

BA

There are all kinds of examples of people falling down to worship. There is nothing about God knocking people over. Laughing for joy is great, I did it myself. Of course, I was 12 at the time, but I do remember what it was like, even after all these years. Then again, no one had ever told me that I was supposed to fall over, or be taken in gales of "holy laughter", or any such nonsense. Even at twelve, I'm pretty sure I would have thought the person saying such things was crazy.
Jesus didn't go around knocking people over, unless you count the guys who came to arrest Him in Gethsemane:


Joh 18:3 Judas then, having received a band of men and officers from the chief priests and Pharisees, cometh thither with lanterns and torches and weapons.
Joh 18:4 Jesus therefore, knowing all things that should come upon him, went forth, and said unto them, Whom seek ye?
Joh 18:5 They answered him, Jesus of Nazareth. Jesus saith unto them, I am he. And Judas also, which betrayed him, stood with them.
Joh 18:6 As soon then as he had said unto them, I am he, they went backward, and fell to the ground.

It occurred to me that He could have actually slain them (slain, btw, means killed), but He did not.
But even at twelve I was pretty impressed by this. It seemed to me that, after this happened, these guys had to be idiots to continue with the arrest, but I suppose they were more afraid of the Sanhedrin than they were of God
And then Peter pulls a sword and slices off the leader's ear, and Jesus heals it.
And they still continue with the arrest.
Some people are just stubborn...

Or, there is the case of Paul:

Act 22:3 I am verily a man which am a Jew, born in Tarsus, a city in Cilicia, yet brought up in this city at the feet of Gamaliel, and taught according to the perfect manner of the law of the fathers, and was zealous toward God, as ye all are this day.
Act 22:4 And I persecuted this way unto the death, binding and delivering into prisons both men and women.
Act 22:5 As also the high priest doth bear me witness, and all the estate of the elders: from whom also I received letters unto the brethren, and went to Damascus, to bring them which were there bound unto Jerusalem, for to be punished.
Act 22:6 And it came to pass, that, as I made my journey, and was come nigh unto Damascus about noon, suddenly there shone from heaven a great light round about me.
Act 22:7 And I fell unto the ground, and heard a voice saying unto me, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?
Act 22:8 And I answered, Who art thou, Lord? And he said unto me, I am Jesus of Nazareth, whom thou persecutest.

I don't know what direction Paul fell in...but God did knock him over. He blinded him, too, for good measure. He doesn't seem to be blinding anyone these days, as far as I've heard. Of course, if He did, it wouldn't be permanent....at least, it wasn't, in Paul's case.
I suppose if any of us goes on a mission to persecute and murder Christians, God might knock the wind out of us, ya think?
Oh, and don't forget, when God was finished with Paul, he went on to be the Apostle to the Gentiles. Pretty cool, huh? And he was given the power to raise folks from the dead. I doubt if any of these people who are toppling over and "wriggling around" ever got up with such an ability? I don't think any of them could even cure the common cold....but then, I am a skeptic. Have you ever heard of any such thing? I'd be interested in hearing about it.

There were no "catchers" in either of these situations, nor was anyone standing by with a blanket for modesty's sake.
Oh, and did you notice? No one touched them, either the guys who came to arrest Jesus, or Saul. I guess if God were really going to knock you over, He wouldn't need any help. And I don't think He'd make a big show of it. Do you?

Other than that, going backward is NOT considered a good thing.
A few examples:

1Sa 4:18 And it came to pass, when he made mention of the ark of God, that he fell from off the seat backward by the side of the gate, and his neck brake, and he died: for he was an old man, and heavy. And he had judged Israel forty years.

Psa 40:14 Let them be ashamed and confounded together that seek after my soul to destroy it; let them be driven backward and put to shame that wish me evil.

Psa 70:2 Let them be ashamed and confounded that seek after my soul: let them be turned backward, and put to confusion, that desire my hurt.

Isa 1:4 Ah sinful nation, a people laden with iniquity, a seed of evildoers, children that are corrupters: they have forsaken the LORD, they have provoked the Holy One of Israel unto anger, they are gone away backward.

I suppose this would be a good time to repeat...I am not a "cessationist". (Isn't it cool how Christians have words for just about anything?)
I know that miracles....real ones....still happen. I had been mauled by a vicious dog, and had bled out...the ambulance crew pronounced me "DOA".....but an angel came to me and I am alive to tell the tale. No one else saw him or heard him, even though he came into a locked ICU ward three times. He put me in touch with my kids so that they would know that their Momma was not dead....and I spoke to them on a telephone, even though there were no phones in the ICU patient rooms.
One day, if you're nice, I'll tell you all about it.
Real miracles do still happen.

Isa 28:13 But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken.

 

[Jun2u]

Most of the commentaries I have looked at hardly comment on this section of Scripture since it is quite obviously added at a later date and therefore not a text that one should use to establish any doctrine. However, of every commentary that does comment on it, not one scholar claims that kainos here infers "other wordly" or something entirely new to language as a whole. If this was so evident in the wording of the Greek as you propose, I would think at least one scholar would make mention of it. On the contrary, almost every commentary (as you can see above) list Acts 2 as examples of these "new" tongues.


So on the basis of this text being incredibly unreliable and the fact that no scholar I have ever read makes this argument about kainos implying a non existing language, I just dont see any validity to what you are claiming here. I know my comments will likely not sway your view on the matter, and we will likely have to agree to disagree. If you can find a scholar that will reinforce what you are claiming, I would be happy to look at their comments about the language here as well as arguments for seeing this text as worthy of establishing such a doctrine.

In Chapter Four of this same Book of Mark, we read that God tells us He spoke in parables and without a parable He did not speak. A parable is an earthly story with a heavenly meaning. This makes the whole Bible a parable as it is a story book to mankind. The Bible is a historical as well as a spiritual book. The Gospel message should be seen on every page of the Bible, if we don't see it, it is not because it is not there, it is our understanding that is in error.

This is the reason Mark 16:17-18 will never be understood by reading the texts literally. Contrary to commentaries by scholars that these texts were added at a later date and not for anyone to establish some kind of doctrine, suggests that these scholars do not get the gist of Mark 16. Scholars tends to copy each other's work without checking if the work done is faithful to the Bible or not because the writer have a label in front or after his name. One thing I'm sure is that the best work of man is still tainted by sin no matter how holy he seem to be.

Now to the matter at hand. There really is nothing mysterious about the word NEW. It still has the same original connotation.

Note how Mr 16:17 begins. The text states there are five signs that follow those that believe. Who are these that believe? These are none other than the true believers. Whereas, before conversion, the true believers spoke the language of the world...about worldly things, and now that they have become saved, they speak of a NEW tongue...about the things of God.

This is the only way to understand the sign "NEW tongue" that follow a believer.

Can anyone define the other four signs that follow a believer by the same method as above?

To God Be The Glory

 

[Wormwood]

A parable is an earthly story with a heavenly meaning. This makes the whole Bible a parable as it is a story book to mankind.

I understand what you mean, but I disagree with how you are stating this. The entire Bible is not parable. Parable is a genre. The Greek comes from two words para (alongside) and bole (to throw). Essentially a parable is a story that is thrown alongside a teaching to illustrate a point. The Bible is poetry, wisdom literature, narrative, parable, apocalyptic literature, etc. It is not, as a whole, a parable.

The Gospel message should be seen on every page of the Bible, if we don't see it, it is not because it is not there, it is our understanding that is in error.

Again, I understand your point. It is true that the entire Bible points to the Gospel of Jesus Christ. However, I dont know that I would say that every page displays the Gospel. The prophecy of Obediah about the destruction of Edom isnt really a direct connection to the Gospel. However, it does show us the need for grace due to God's impending judgment on wickedness.

This is the reason Mark 16:17-18 will never be understood by reading the texts literally. Contrary to commentaries by scholars that these texts were added at a later date and not for anyone to establish some kind of doctrine, suggests that these scholars do not get the gist of Mark 16. Scholars tends to copy each other's work without checking if the work done is faithful to the Bible or not because the writer have a label in front or after his name. One thing I'm sure is that the best work of man is still tainted by sin no matter how holy he seem to be.

This is simply not true. There are many many scholars who spend their lives examining old documents to discern which documents are most reflective of what the original authors wrote. When you have literally hundreds of ancient documents of Mark's Gospel and none of the earliest ones contain the long ending of Mark 16, there is very good reason to question its authenticity. Those documents still exist for scholarly examination. I assure you, this isnt the case of someone just running with an idea that some scholar had. The hard evidence is there for everyone to examine which is the basis for our Greek texts today. The critical apparatus in the NA28 places the entire section in double brackets which indicate, "that the enclosed words, generally of some length, are known not to be a part of the original text." NA28, pg. 55.

Note how Mr 16:17 begins. The text states there are five signs that follow those that believe. Who are these that believe? These are none other than the true believers. Whereas, before conversion, the true believers spoke the language of the world...about worldly things, and now that they have become saved, they speak of a NEW tongue...about the things of God.

This seems to be a very allegorical way to read the text. I do not think that this ending lends itself to allegory.

 

[Barrd]

While all of this is interesting, it sort of avoids the real issue.
Are "tongues" in the Bible real, human languages, or are they some kind of "spiritual code"?
Are the people in these pentacostal-type churches really being influenced by the Holy Spirit when they babble in these gibberish "tongues"? Could they be faking it? Or could it be something much more sinister?
I see it all around me down here in the heart of the "Bible Belt".
I do believe that most of them are "faking it", especially those who believe that "tongues" are some sort of a sign...the measure of how "spiritual" you are. After all, if you belong to a group where everyone else is "spiritual" you don't want to be left out, do you? Anyone can do it...it is very very easy. My little friend who "faked" tongues in order to escape the prison his family and their church put him in was, I believe, about eight at the time. Oh, and child protective services were alerted....but this is Alabama, and his dad is a member of the "good ol' boy" league.
The ones that really scare me are the ones who are "real". They are.....I dunno....just different, somehow. Angry, and mean. And insulated. It isn't a group that welcomes new members, if you know what I mean.

And, more to the point of the thread....is God really knocking people unconscious? Is He giving His pastors the power to touch someone on the forehead and knock him out cold? Does God need "catchers"? Or people waiting with blankets? (I think of the winter that is coming, and the kids who could use those blankets on their beds....but that is a whole different subject.)
Someone in the thread mentioned that he fell over without any "catchers" and he was not hurt a bit. Well, that's great, but then, why did that chubby lady I saw fall down in one of these churches have to be taken in an ambulance to the hospital to have her head stitched up when the "catchers" dropped her? Should I believe what I've seen with my eyes, or what some stranger tells me on the internet? There was quite a bit of blood to clean up, on the hardwood floor of that church. Perhaps they should have put in a cushy carpet before they started shoving people over?

 

[Wormwood]

Barrd,

I would not be so hard on charismatics. I have found most charismatics to be genuine people who deeply love the Lord and have a passion for knowing and experiencing God in real-life situations. I must say, I wish Christians from other denominations were as eager and expectant for God to move in their lives as many charismatics. In my local church, most people come in late and sit at the very back so they can be the first to get out after the service. In many charismatic services I have been in, most are there early and sit at the front because they are excited about the Lord and are hopeful that the Lord will touch their lives in a meaningful way during the gathering of believers.

Now, as you know, I do not think the tongues and being "slain in the spirit" is the Holy Spirit's work (I mean, I am sure he can knock anyone down He wants to or cause us to speak in whatever way that pleases Him, but I just do not think that is what He is up to in the world). However, I think there are other options than "faking it" or being moved by an evil spirit. Humans are spiritual beings and when there is a great amount of enthusiasm and expectation, I think there can feel genuinely impacted, spiritually influenced and moved in various ways by those around them (and not necessarily by manipulation). So, it is unfortunate that a lady would fall over and hurt her head, but I dont think this is a reason to discredit charismatics. I mean, yeah, we can look at that situation and say it was unnecessary and that blankets could be used for those who have none. However, we could also say that every church building could be used to shelter the homeless and the electrical cost for heaters in baptisms is a strike against the spirituality of a local church that baptizes by immersion. But I fear if we travel down this road we end up much like the disciples who complained that money was being wasted at the ointment being poured on Jesus as an act of worship. Is it a waste? Or, is it a means of worship? If so, can worship be wasteful? Again, I think the Lord prefers a bit of misguided enthusiasm to the dryness and lack of expectation that occurs in many other churches that may happen to be more doctrinally accurate on this issue.

Personally, I wish we could have churches with that kind of enthusiasm that was able to direct that expectation and desire toward an intimate understanding of the Word and the inner transformation of our hearts rather than the expectation of some momentary emotional or supernatural event. I think most charismatics have the right heart, even if it stems from an incomplete understanding, which may be better than having a right understanding without spiritual fervor. All in all, each movement has its own issues and we should show grace to other movements in the same manner that we hope the Lord give us grace in our areas of weakness.

Please note: I am not saying you have a lack of spiritual fervor, etc. My comments are just general observations from what I see in different church settings.

 

[Barrd]

Barrd,

I would not be so hard on charismatics. I have found most charismatics to be genuine people who deeply love the Lord and have a passion for knowing and experiencing God in real-life situations. I must say, I wish Christians from other denominations were as eager and expectant for God to move in their lives as many charismatics. In my local church, most people come in late and sit at the very back so they can be the first to get out after the service. In many charismatic services I have been in, most are there early and sit at the front because they are excited about the Lord and are hopeful that the Lord will touch their lives in a meaningful way during the gathering of believers.

I don't see it this way.
Sure, most charismatics are as decent as most folks....which, I'm sad to say, isn't really saying much. I've been in a great many charismatic services, and I've seen how they come in early and are all exited....they just can't wait to show each other how "spiritual" they are. This isn't God moving in these churches....it is over-inflated ego. These antics are not designed to draw attention to Christ, but to themselves.
There is a thread all about why people are leaving the church...perhaps, like so many, your church has become more of a show than a place where believers gather to be fed? I know that a great many people just don't feel as if they are finding what they need in our churches today...but playing make believe is no substitute for real Christianity.

Now, as you know, I do not think the tongues and being "slain in the spirit" is the Holy Spirit's work (I mean, I am sure he can knock anyone down He wants to or cause us to speak in whatever way that pleases Him, but I just do not think that is what He is up to in the world). However, I think there are other options than "faking it" or being moved by an evil spirit. Humans are spiritual beings and when there is a great amount of enthusiasm and expectation, I think there can feel genuinely impacted, spiritually influenced and moved in various ways by those around them (and not necessarily by manipulation). So, it is unfortunate that a lady would fall over and hurt her head, but I dont think this is a reason to discredit charismatics. I mean, yeah, we can look at that situation and say it was unnecessary and that blankets could be used for those who have none. However, we could also say that every church building could be used to shelter the homeless and the electrical cost for heaters in baptisms is a strike against the spirituality of a local church that baptizes by immersion. But I fear if we travel down this road we end up much like the disciples who complained that money was being wasted at the ointment being poured on Jesus as an act of worship. Is it a waste? Or, is it a means of worship? If so, can worship be wasteful? Again, I think the Lord prefers a bit of misguided enthusiasm to the dryness and lack of expectation that occurs in many other churches that may happen to be more doctrinally accurate on this issue.

I do think there is a bit of difference between anointing the Lord with precious ointment, and stocking a bunch of blankets to cover people during a staged production, which is what these mass slayings generally are. Personally, I felt bad for the lady who got hurt. Did God really knock her down? Of course not! But she wanted Him to, so badly. And why? Because she had been led to believe that being slain was some sort of spiritual blessing.
You know what is funny...these people being "slain" do not receive any special blessings from it. Those who are poor are still poor afterwards, those who are troubled are still troubled, those who are sick, or hurt, are still sick or hurt. They still commit adultery, gossip, shoplift, and all the other petty sins that people commit...I've seen them. I know of one lady who has a serious fetish for nail polish and those little sticker thingies that some women like to put on their fingernails...she steals that stuff from WalMart all the time. Sooner or later, she's going to get caught...and I'm afraid the judge will not be impressed by her falling down and wriggling around on the floor...

Personally, I wish we could have churches with that kind of enthusiasm that was able to direct that expectation and desire toward an intimate understanding of the Word and the inner transformation of our hearts rather than the expectation of some momentary emotional or supernatural event. I think most charismatics have the right heart, even if it stems from an incomplete understanding, which may be better than having a right understanding without spiritual fervor. All in all, each movement has its own issues and we should show grace to other movements in the same manner that we hope the Lord give us grace in our areas of weakness.

The desire should be, as you say, toward an intimate understanding of the Word and the inner transformation of our hearts...but the desire of these charismatics does seem to be more toward that momentary or supernatural event. I'm not so sure these folks have, as you say, the right heart, because their heart seems to be set more on self than on Christ.
I agree with you that we should be showing grace, and I suppose I am lacking there, at least where charismatics are concerned. I suppose my little grandson's friend, who came to me in tears thinking that he had sinned, might have something to do with that. I've seen too many kids in these churches being neglected or outright abused by their "spiritual" parents....Oh, WW, I could tell you stories that would make you weep.
Kids are very hard to fool, WW....and, as the Mom of seven and grandma of more than twice that many....plus the Granny with the best home baked cookies you ever dipped in milk...I know a lot of kids. And they talk to me, WW. I don't just see these people in their churches....I see them in their every day lives, I see them in their homes....and I see them through the eyes of their children.
However, your advice is well taken....I'm a good way from being perfect myself. Perhaps I need to have mercy on others who are also not perfect...

Please note: I am not saying you have a lack of spiritual fervor, etc. My comments are just general observations from what I see in different church settings.

Dear friend, I never thought you were saying any such thing.
But I appreciate your concern for my delicate feelings... :wub:

 

[Wormwood]

There is a thread all about why people are leaving the church...perhaps, like so many, your church has become more of a show than a place where believers gather to be fed? I know that a great many people just don't feel as if they are finding what they need in our churches today...but playing make believe is no substitute for real Christianity.

I do not agree with the assumption that numbers are to be equated with spiritual vitality. Perhaps it is because the truth is taught that some churches do not grow? As for the church I attend, it is growing. I was commenting on the behavior of people who generally like to show up a little late and sit at the back. They are good Christian folks. I would just say that many do not come to church with much anticipation of God moving in t heir lives during that gathering, which is unfortunate.

You know what is funny...these people being "slain" do not receive any special blessings from it. Those who are poor are still poor afterwards, those who are troubled are still troubled, those who are sick, or hurt, are still sick or hurt.

Well, I dont know that we receive any spiritual blessings from using drums or projectors either. That is not to say they are entirely useless or inherently evil. Again, I agree with you that what is happening is not a direct result of the Spirit's moving (in my opinion), but again, I just dont think we have to become judges over the spirituality of the majority of charismatics as a result. I do think that God works in charismatic churches that have a longing for signs and wonders. However, I just dont think the "signs" and "wonders" they often boast of are usually the Lord's doing.

They still commit adultery, gossip, shoplift, and all the other petty sins that people commit...I've seen them. I know of one lady who has a serious fetish for nail polish and those little sticker thingies that some women like to put on their fingernails...she steals that stuff from WalMart all the time.

I agree with you that the true sign of spiritual maturity is the fruit of the Spirit, and not some act of ecstatic speech or falling on the floor. I too find it disheartening when such acts are viewed as signs of spiritual wholeness or greatness. I just dont know that most charismatics I have meet feel superior to others because of these events. Yes, many of them will say that having these experiences is important to them and they feel like it would be a great benefit to all believers if all shared in those experiences. Yet, most I have met would not say I was a lesser Christian than them (your experiences may be different than my own) because I do not speak in tongues or get slain in the Spirit. I just think we have to be careful in making such broad statements. Whether you intend it or not, your writing makes it sound as if most charismatics are arrogant, self-absorbed, deceived kleptomaniacs. Yes, I have met some that I felt were manipulative with misguided and even dangerous teaching. But I have also met a lot of genuine charismatics that live very godly lives and love Jesus with all their hearts. Whether or not they all of them have experienced being "slain in the Spirit," I do not know. I just dont think in the grand scheme of things it matters.

Sometimes I may sing song and feel an overwhelming sense of God's love and grace fill my heart and soul and fill me with emotion such that I well up with tears. Perhaps it is the Lord that is touching my life in a special way in that moment by the Holy Spirit. Or, perhaps it is my own emotion welling up within me as I reflect on His grace. In my estimation, it doesnt really matter if it is the Lord making me have goosebumps or if those are the result of my own emotions and the worship atmosphere around me. The important thing is that I am fixed on the goodness of God in worship and that I am genuinely giving honor to Him. I do not see this issue as much different. Personally, I believe it is the persons own emotion and mind that causes them to fall down in these "slain in the Spirit" episodes. Yet, I also think that it is quite possible that this person could be genuinely moved with deep emotion by the grace of God. So what does it matter to me if they fall down or stand up? As long as the service is done in order and the grace of God is proclaimed through the cross of Jesus Christ, the Kingdom of God is much bigger than falling down or staying standing.

...but the desire of these charismatics does seem to be more toward that momentary or supernatural event. I'm not so sure these folks have, as you say, the right heart, because their heart seems to be set more on self than on Christ.

I agree that often these types of atmospheres lend themselves to an improper focus which can lead to exalting personal experiences rather than daily obedience to the word of Christ. It is one of the issues I have with the movement as a whole, but we just have to keep it all in perspective. Just because these groups are more apt to struggle in a particular area does not mean that the majority of them do. Every denominational (or non-denominational) group has its own tendencies toward certain sins (nominalism, emotionalism, legalism, etc.). But that doesnt mean that most are that way. I think we need to assume the best of our brothers and sisters in Christ, not the worst. I say this by way of constant reminder to myself as well, not just you.

 

[Barrd]

I do not agree with the assumption that numbers are to be equated with spiritual vitality. Perhaps it is because the truth is taught that some churches do not grow? As for the church I attend, it is growing. I was commenting on the behavior of people who generally like to show up a little late and sit at the back. They are good Christian folks. I would just say that many do not come to church with much anticipation of God moving in t heir lives during that gathering, which is unfortunate.

I think you misunderstood me. I had a problem, a few years back, when many of the churches around here decided to close their doors on Sunday morning....because it was Christmas. I knew that there were two or three families in the area who were looking forward to the usual Christmas feast at the church...so, I went and gathered them up and brought them to my house, so they could have a Christmas dinner.
Evidently the pastors of these churches have forgotten that they are servants

Well, I dont know that we receive any spiritual blessings from using drums or projectors either. That is not to say they are entirely useless or inherently evil. Again, I agree with you that what is happening is not a direct result of the Spirit's moving (in my opinion), but again, I just dont think we have to become judges over the spirituality of the majority of charismatics as a result. I do think that God works in charismatic churches that have a longing for signs and wonders. However, I just dont think the "signs" and "wonders" they often boast of are usually the Lord's doing.

Drums and projectors? But, WW, people don't go to church to be entertained. When I walk into a church and see a stage with a drum kit all set up, and microphones, and all that electronic paraphanalia, I am likely to turn around and walk back out again. A couple of hours spent alone with God at home will profit me more than watching a rock concert at church.
I'm an old fashioned type of gal. I want to hear a choir singing, or maybe even be a member of a choir. I want to sing "The Old Rugged Cross", or "Victory In Jesus", or "Just As I Am"....you know, the old classics that we have known and loved since childhood. I want to belong to a church where, when someone is sick, members go to their house to do the cooking and cleaning so that the family can concentrate on their fallen member. I want to belong to a church where, when someone is out of work, the members close ranks, making sure that the family has food, and, if necessary, helping with the finances, until that family can get back on its feet again. I want to belong to a church where the members don't just see each other on Sunday morning...but they are friends all week long. Where they might make a date to go to a movie, or out to dinner together....or maybe just stop in for a chat and a cuppa, you know? Like the church I belonged to as a child. Where is that Christian bond today?
Find me a church where the "fellowship" doesn't end when the sermon is over, and I'll be in the front row, eager to see God moving among the people.

I agree with you that the true sign of spiritual maturity is the fruit of the Spirit, and not some act of ecstatic speech or falling on the floor. I too find it disheartening when such acts are viewed as signs of spiritual wholeness or greatness. I just dont know that most charismatics I have meet feel superior to others because of these events. Yes, many of them will say that having these experiences is important to them and they feel like it would be a great benefit to all believers if all shared in those experiences. Yet, most I have met would not say I was a lesser Christian than them (your experiences may be different than my own) because I do not speak in tongues or get slain in the Spirit. I just think we have to be careful in making such broad statements. Whether you intend it or not, your writing makes it sound as if most charismatics are arrogant, self-absorbed, deceived kleptomaniacs. Yes, I have met some that I felt were manipulative with misguided and even dangerous teaching. But I have also met a lot of genuine charismatics that live very godly lives and love Jesus with all their hearts. Whether or not they all of them have experienced being "slain in the Spirit," I do not know. I just dont think in the grand scheme of things it matters.

I would say that the majority of charismatics....well, a great many of them, anyway....are just average folks, going about their average lives, doing the best that they can to live up to the example that Christ set for us. Perhaps I haven't made that clear.
However, you and I both know that these "signs" are not from God. I seriously doubt that most of them are demonic in origin, either. Which leaves only one alternative. It's fake. Now, why would Godly people fake something like that? Why is it not enough to live Godly lives, and love Jesus with all their hearts?
And I have seen a few...like that preacher's wife...that I would swear are evil. Perhaps too many of them have shown me that they are capable of being "arrogant, self-absorbed, deceived kleptomaniacs", and I'm uncomfortable around them.
I think, in the grand scheme of things, faking something like this does matter very much. When they branch out into "holy laughter", and other such nonsense, I would call it "blaspheming the Holy Spirit"....and it scares me down to my bones. As far as I know, we don't have any of those in this small town...more than likely I would have heard. But we have a lot of them across the border in Pensacola....too close for comfort.

Sometimes I may sing song and feel an overwhelming sense of God's love and grace fill my heart and soul and fill me with emotion such that I well up with tears. Perhaps it is the Lord that is touching my life in a special way in that moment by the Holy Spirit. Or, perhaps it is my own emotion welling up within me as I reflect on His grace. In my estimation, it doesnt really matter if it is the Lord making me have goosebumps or if those are the result of my own emotions and the worship atmosphere around me. The important thing is that I am fixed on the goodness of God in worship and that I am genuinely giving honor to Him. I do not see this issue as much different. Personally, I believe it is the persons own emotion and mind that causes them to fall down in these "slain in the Spirit" episodes. Yet, I also think that it is quite possible that this person could be genuinely moved with deep emotion by the grace of God. So what does it matter to me if they fall down or stand up? As long as the service is done in order and the grace of God is proclaimed through the cross of Jesus Christ, the Kingdom of God is much bigger than falling down or staying standing.

I know exactly what you mean, WW, and I am prone to such things myself. It's hard to describe, that feeling that God is touching your life...but it is very real. Is God "making you have goosebumps" or is it the result of your own emotions? I would say, six of one, and a half dozen of the other. But this is not something that we actively seek, for one thing. Nor is it sensationalism. This isn't drawing attention away from the Lord, but rather bringing you and anyone who might be around you, closer. And it doesn't involve any third party influence...no one has to touch you or push you in order to evoke those emotions in you. Simply being in God's presence is enough.
As you said, the important thing is that you are fixed on the goodness of God in worship and that you are genuinely giving honor to Him. The operative term here is genuine. Your tears, your joy, your overwhelming emotion...these are real. Falling over in some sort of fit....not so much. Do you see the difference?

I agree that often these types of atmospheres lend themselves to an improper focus which can lead to exalting personal experiences rather than daily obedience to the word of Christ. It is one of the issues I have with the movement as a whole, but we just have to keep it all in perspective. Just because these groups are more apt to struggle in a particular area does not mean that the majority of them do. Every denominational (or non-denominational) group has its own tendencies toward certain sins (nominalism, emotionalism, legalism, etc.). But that doesnt mean that most are that way. I think we need to assume the best of our brothers and sisters in Christ, not the worst. I say this by way of constant reminder to myself as well, not just you.

I guess that's why, in my old age, I have become, as one friend puts it, "blissfully unaffiliated". I do not belong to a denomination, nor do I intend to ever again belong to one. I have three families that meet together twice a week, and we worship together. It works for us. Sure, we occasionally attend other churches now and again...but every Sunday afternoon at two, we get together at someone's house, and one or the other of us leads a worship service. It just feels more...I dunno...natural.


WW, it did not escape my notice that you did not address my main problem with the charismatic movement:

The desire should be, as you say, toward an intimate understanding of the Word and the inner transformation of our hearts...but the desire of these charismatics does seem to be more toward that momentary or supernatural event. I'm not so sure these folks have, as you say, the right heart, because their heart seems to be set more on self than on Christ.
I agree with you that we should be showing grace, and I suppose I am lacking there, at least where charismatics are concerned. I suppose my little grandson's friend, who came to me in tears thinking that he had sinned, might have something to do with that. I've seen too many kids in these churches being neglected or outright abused by their "spiritual" parents....Oh, WW, I could tell you stories that would make you weep.
Kids are very hard to fool, WW....and, as the Mom of seven and grandma of more than twice that many....plus the Granny with the best home baked cookies you ever dipped in milk...I know a lot of kids. And they talk to me, WW. I don't just see these people in their churches....I see them in their every day lives, I see them in their homes....and I see them through the eyes of their children.
However, your advice is well taken....I'm a good way from being perfect myself. Perhaps I need to have mercy on others who are also not perfect...

The kids, WW....the kids!
Give a pastor the attention of a couple of hundred adults, and he's still a nobody.
But give a man the attention of a few hundred kids....

 

[Wormwood]

Drums and projectors? But, WW, people don't go to church to be entertained. When I walk into a church and see a stage with a drum kit all set up, and microphones, and all that electronic paraphanalia, I am likely to turn around and walk back out again. A couple of hours spent alone with God at home will profit me more than watching a rock concert at church.
I'm an old fashioned type of gal. I want to hear a choir singing, or maybe even be a member of a choir. I want to sing "The Old Rugged Cross", or "Victory In Jesus", or "Just As I Am"....you know, the old classics that we have known and loved since childhood.

Well, I do not want to derail the discussion on charismatic experiences to worship styles. Suffice it to say that my point is simply that your preference is to sing, "The Old Rugged Cross" or sit back and listen to a choir. Another person's preference may be to worship to a more contemporary song, dance, and maybe even fall down on the floor. I dont think we should equate preferences in worship with good vs. evil. So, in my opinion, being slain in the spirit is not an act of the Holy Spirit, but it doesnt mean it is evil, any more than an organ or a drum set. To each his own...as long as God is the focus. (P.S. I think you can have contemporary music without having a "rock concert." Remember, those golden oldies were once the hated contemporary songs of a previous generation! In fact, A Mighty Fortress Is Our God was sung to an old bar tune!)

Which leaves only one alternative. It's fake. Now, why would Godly people fake something like that? Why is it not enough to live Godly lives, and love Jesus with all their hearts?

Like I said, I can be emotionally moved to tears while singing a worship song. Just because it is not the Holy Spirit making me cry does not mean my outward expression is "fake." I, personally, am not a "dancer" or someone who likes to move around a lot or lift hands, etc. I think we just need to be cautious of determining which particular expressions are genuine and which are not. David danced in a very undignified way before the Lord and it seemed pretty pleasing to God. Maybe God is pleased when someone loses their dignity and falls down on the floor in worship? I dont know. I just know I am not comfortable making those determinations. I worship in the way that fits with my personality and expect others will do the same with the assumption that there isnt always a right or wrong so long as the focus is on the Lord and things are done in order.

I do not belong to a denomination, nor do I intend to ever again belong to one. I have three families that meet together twice a week, and we worship together. It works for us. Sure, we occasionally attend other churches now and again...but every Sunday afternoon at two, we get together at someone's house, and one or the other of us leads a worship service. It just feels more...I dunno...natural.

Well, I understand your desire to have close fellowship in an intimate setting. However, I do also have concerns about such house church models. The NT makes it pretty clear that local fellowships are to be guided by elders and there should be a sense of authority and guidance for the group by those mature believers who are designated and appointed to be elders. My concern about house churches is that these often exist with a flattened leadership structure such that there is no authority and no accountability to particular shepherds. I worry that these house church models which are becoming so popular today are more about our postmodern culture's rejection of any and all authority in favor of exalting individualism rather than a desire to follow the NT model. I do not know what your house church is like, so I am just throwing this out there as a general concern. Each model comes with its own issues...whether charismatic or otherwise.

The kids, WW....the kids!

I wasnt ignoring your concern. I just havent seen charismatic parents being any more abusive or neglectful of kids than others groups. I have heard of parents of very conservative, bible-believing churches being very strict and even abusive toward kids as well. I just havent seen one particular strand of faith lend itself more towards the mistreatment of children, nor have a really read anything about such trends.

 

[Barrd]

Well, I do not want to derail the discussion on charismatic experiences to worship styles. Suffice it to say that my point is simply that your preference is to sing, "The Old Rugged Cross" or sit back and listen to a choir. Another person's preference may be to worship to a more contemporary song, dance, and maybe even fall down on the floor. I dont think we should equate preferences in worship with good vs. evil. So, in my opinion, being slain in the spirit is not an act of the Holy Spirit, but it doesnt mean it is evil, any more than an organ or a drum set. To each his own...as long as God is the focus. (P.S. I think you can have contemporary music without having a "rock concert." Remember, those golden oldies were once the hated contemporary songs of a previous generation! In fact, A Mighty Fortress Is Our God was sung to an old bar tune!)

Okay, I'll concede the point that contemporary music is just as good as the classics...well, some of it is, anyway .
I went to WinterJam last year....yeah, a little lady with silver hair and a walker, yet...and I had a ball, rocking out with the great music. It was wonderful, and it put me on a spiritual high that still hasn't worn off.
But church is something else. Church needs to be about worship....not about putting on a performance. Worship needs to be an interactive experience, and we can't all play the drums. If a younger church wants more contemporary music, so be it....but not as a show, but rather as something they can also participate in. So, pass out the music....or what the heck, put it up on your projector, or whatever....and let the rafters ring!
When I was younger, I was a part of a "garage band" called "The Stone Balloon". We were pretty popular in the northwestern part of New York State, especially in towns like Eden and Hamburg, and we were even known in Buffalo. In fact, WKBW radio once had a contest, strictly for amateurs....and we won. I was the only girl in the band, and all I did was sing....oh, and dance a bit.
And before I got hurt, I used to love to dance.
I've done the Charleston with my Daddy, I've done the shimmy like sister Kate never knew it, I have mashed the potatoes and ridden the pony with my own generation....I have waltzed and polka'd, and even trotted with the foxes...it's all good. I even took ballet and tap when I was a little kid. I loved it.
And I have sung "Amazing Grace" to the tune of "The House of the Rising Sun" (the Rolling Stones, in case you didn't know), and even threw in an extra verse written by yours truly.
But worship is not dance recital, and it is not a concert. It must be interactive, or it's no good.
Think of it this way....you don't invite guests to dinner at your house to sit back and watch you and your family eat, do you? Of course not. You lay out places for your expected company and you serve the food to them, as well as to your family and yourself.
Same idea...we all need to be fed. It's no fun sitting in a pew watching a few performers lap up all the cream... Forget the programs, and pass out spoons to everyone!

Like I said, I can be emotionally moved to tears while singing a worship song. Just because it is not the Holy Spirit making me cry does not mean my outward expression is "fake." I, personally, am not a "dancer" or someone who likes to move around a lot or lift hands, etc. I think we just need to be cautious of determining which particular expressions are genuine and which are not. David danced in a very undignified way before the Lord and it seemed pretty pleasing to God. Maybe God is pleased when someone loses their dignity and falls down on the floor in worship? I dont know. I just know I am not comfortable making those determinations. I worship in the way that fits with my personality and expect others will do the same with the assumption that there isnt always a right or wrong so long as the focus is on the Lord and things are done in order.

First of all, I'm going to assume that, when you are emotionally moved to tears while singing, it isn't because of your fabulous tenor. I'm going to guess that it is the music that moves you....the beautiful lyrics, the sweet melody, the soothing harmony...oh, to hear the angels sing! And I wouldn't be so very sure that the HS is not involved in moving you to tears. You feel cleaner, somehow, and closer to God after such an experience, don't you?
If you happen to be in public when it happens, I'll bet you duck your head, to keep anyone from noticing. My Dad had one of those huge hankies, and he'd pretend to be wiping his nose...but somehow, the thing always wound up covering his eyes as well...for a moment or two...if you didn't know him you would never have suspected that he could tear up at the sound of a children's choir singing "Oh Little Town of Bethlehem" at Christmas.
But the charismatic movement is something else. This isn't being overwhelmed with emotion. These people file up to the altar, expecting to be knocked out. They intend to wind up "wriggling on the floor". It isn't some emotional reaction that overtakes them, say, at the opening verses to the Sermon on the Mount. This is planned and deliberate.
I don't know that David's dance was "undignified". I do know that his wife, Michal, Saul's daughter, was jealous. She was the one complaining, no one else. She didn't want him strutting his stuff in front of the local gals. From what I read, it seems that God is unhappy with Michal.
Was God pleased with the men who came to arrest Jesus when He knocked them over? Or was He happy with the things Saul had done when He knocked him down and blinded him? I do not think so.
Falling backwards is not something to be sought after:

1Sa 4:18 And it came to pass, when he made mention of the ark of God, that he fell from off the seat backward by the side of the gate, and his neck brake, and he died: for he was an old man, and heavy. And he had judged Israel forty years.

Psa 40:14 Let them be ashamed and confounded together that seek after my soul to destroy it; let them be driven backward and put to shame that wish me evil.

Psa 70:2 Let them be ashamed and confounded that seek after my soul: let them be turned backward, and put to confusion, that desire my hurt.

Isa 28:13 But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken.

The slain victim hitting the floor and the gentle tears in your eyes are not the same thing, dear man....nor are they from the same source...

Well, I understand your desire to have close fellowship in an intimate setting. However, I do also have concerns about such house church models. The NT makes it pretty clear that local fellowships are to be guided by elders and there should be a sense of authority and guidance for the group by those mature believers who are designated and appointed to be elders. My concern about house churches is that these often exist with a flattened leadership structure such that there is no authority and no accountability to particular shepherds. I worry that these house church models which are becoming so popular today are more about our postmodern culture's rejection of any and all authority in favor of exalting individualism rather than a desire to follow the NT model. I do not know what your house church is like, so I am just throwing this out there as a general concern. Each model comes with its own issues...whether charismatic or otherwise.

Let not your fears for me overwhelm you, dear man. Four of us are actually ordained ministers of the Bible.
But I think this idea you have of "authority" is a bit skewed. Jesus Christ is our authority. He is our Shepherd. Pastors, Deacons, Elders, etc, are servants...at best, they are sort of "Junior Shepherds".
Christians are accountable to each other, but mainly, we are accountable to Jesus Christ, Who says "If you love Me, keep My commands".
And what are His commands? Well, I could go in depth here, but I also do not wish to derail the thread. In brief, He tells us to "Love one another. As I have loved you, so you also must love one another. By this, all men will know that you are my disciples...by the love that you have, one for the other."
And that, me bucko, is what is missing from the church in our "postmodern age".

I wasnt ignoring your concern. I just havent seen charismatic parents being any more abusive or neglectful of kids than others groups. I have heard of parents of very conservative, bible-believing churches being very strict and even abusive toward kids as well. I just havent seen one particular strand of faith lend itself more towards the mistreatment of children, nor have a really read anything about such trends.

Perhaps you just aren't someone that kids feel comfortable talking to. Their world isn't always the safe, secure place it ought to be. It can be a very dangerous, scary place, where everyone is bigger than you.
Now, I'm definitely not saying that all charismatics are abusive, or even that most of them are. And I'm not saying that they are the only ones who abuse their kids.
Enough of them do to make it a problem, but then, it's a problem everywhere. Hell has opened her mouth, indeed!

There's more to it, than that, although that would be bad enough...
The kids watch their parents. They see the gibbering in "tongues" and they do not see emotion in their parents' eyes. One kid told me that it was as if his Mom was dead during her "tongues".
And they watch as their parents are "slain".

Where do you think my idea that there might be a demon behind it came from? None other than a young man called Travis.....

 

[marksman]

First of all, by your own admission, you are autistic. Autism is a strange disorder...I have a son who has autism. In adults it is often linked with paranoid schizophrenia, ocd....and hallucinations.

NOTE: I don’t have hallucinations and I am not a paranoid schizophrenic.

Now, I'm going to guess that you were in a place where these things go on normally, and you were caught up in the emotions of the moment.

NOTE: if you read what I said we were a very measured church without emotion.

It happens even to "normal" people, and is probably one of the most common reasons why people go down on the first experience.

NOTE: As you were not there, you are in no position to comment on what happened.

It is not unusual for people with these mental disorders to feel "rejected" even when they are not.

NOTE: I don’t have a mental disorder. I am on the high end scale so I am very intelligent.

They tend to be very insecure, and centered on self. And yes, they can be and often are delusional. Sometimes, too, they don't seem to feel pain, or pleasure. Now, I'm very glad that you feel that you have been "set free" from "the spirit of rejection"...but I do hope you are able to realize that God can do that without knocking anyone over.

NOTE: Your last comment is irrelevant. I don’t deal with what he can do. I deal with what he does.

No, God does not lead anyone up the garden path, and He is not a cheat. But we do have a vicious enemy who can and would do these things...

NOTE: Satan never does anything that brings you into a closer and more vital relationship with God. if you don;t know that you are going to be very easily duped.

I have some deep suspicions about anyone saying that they "delivered" anyone from "the spirit of homosexuality".

NOTE: It is a good thing for that young man I don’t listen to you.

I've had to deal with a young man who thought he was homosexual. Long story short, he was "delivered" from it, and yes, there was a lot of prayer involved. But there was a bit more to it than that. One does not just "pray the gay away".

NOTE: Judging by your comments we don’t do anything unless it is approved by you.

I want you to look through the Bible and see if you can find anything like the example you gave of Jesus or the Apostles ever going down a line, touching people on the head, chanting a few words, and BOOM...they fall down. Make it a challenge.

NOTE: I want you to look through the bible and see if you can find anything about owning a car; about using a computer; about meeting on Sunday; about bringing a pastor in from outside of the church and paying him to run the place; about wearing sunglasses; about employing youth pastors; about so called ministers wearing frocks to conduct a meeting; about holding conferences; about TV evangelists; about paying someone to preach a Sunday sermon; about anyone being called a reverend; about women teaching men and so on and so on……

Show me some proof from the Bible that this is not some demon at work, or some hallucination....or out and out fakery. If you can do that, I will apologize to you and to everyone else in the thread. On the other hand, if it is not in the Bible, where does your authority to do this come from?

NOTE: After you have shown us the proof for all the things I listed.

More importantly, where does the power to knock people over come from?

NOTE: I didn’t knock anyone over.

If it isn't from God, then where does it come from? I know that autistic people tend to get obsessive about things like this...you will hold to this belief even if it is proven to you to be a fraud. And I know how frustrating it can be to try to reason with an autistic person. As someone else once put it, it's like trying to herd cats.

NOTE: I don’t get obsessive about anything. And I know how frustrating it is trying to reason with someone like you who thinks she is an authority on the scripture and everyone else’s experience when your words clearly show you have no idea.

And finally, the so-called "charismatic movement" is all about sensationalism. It's a huge "look at me" party.

NOTE: These words clearly show that you are incapable of objective truth. The charismatic movement has many facets and expressions encompassing people from all walks of life so to say the charismatic movement as if it was one big cohesive expression is arrogant in the extreme. I would suggest that your writing here is more about “look at me” than ever the charismatic mover of God is.

Again I say that the Holy Spirit would never be involved in calling attention to Himself. Rather, His whole purpose is to call attention to Jesus Christ.

NOTE: This comment shows very clearly that you have no idea what you are talking about. My young man grew up to be a loving and caring husband and father. Now in my books that would please the Father, not your arrogant view about how you release young men from the scourge of homosexuality.

Now, I do not claim to have any "special insight into the mind of God." I never have.

NOTE: No, you don’t as you have made that very obvious.

But I do have a Bible, and I can read.

NOTE: So can Satan and he trembles.

And, as I've said, I've had people actually admit to me that they were faking, or helping someone else put on a show.

NOTE: A rather pathetic reason to reject the activity of the Holy Spirit if I may say so.

Including that little boy I spoke of earlier who was so afraid he was going to hell for his sin. In case you missed it, his parents allowed their church to keep him for two days and nights in a locked room with no light, no food, no water, and no bathroom, coming in at various intervals to "lay hands on" him and pray over him until he should be "baptized in the Holy Spirit". He finally crumbled, and began to babble nonsense. His parents were overjoyed! Their son was now "spiritual! He came weeping to me, needing reassurance that God still loves him. I told him that he had not sinned, because he had been forced, and he accepted that. I pray for him a lot. His parents have no idea that he came to me. They really don't like him being around me, but he is my grandson's best bud, and they tend to spend quite a bit of time here. I don't think my daughter is telling them that she brings them over here...and I'm not talking, either...

NOTE: I am not in the habit of taking my cue from people who may or may not do things right or wrong.

The fakes don't really bother me. God will deal with them in His Own time. I'm sounding a warning, is all, in the hope that, perhaps, I might save one or two.

NOTE: The fact that you spend so much time trying to rebuke the so called fake means that it does bother you that people don’t do things your way. It is evident that you have no calling from God to teach men so you are not going to save anyone. You obviously have not comprehended the fact that your words sound very hollow and are from your own brain, not from the Holy Spirit.

No, the ones that worry me are the ones that insist that what they experienced is "real." There is no example of it in the Bible at all, and no authority to add it later, which there would be if it truly came from God. So, if it doesn't come from God, there is only one other place it could come from...and that would be Satan.

NOTE: I look forward to you pointing out the authority in the bible for all the things I have listed previously. I am afraid what you consider to be Satan is more than likely your own opinion and nothing else and one who has been totally deluded and duped by Satan. I say this as I have heard your arguments all before and not one of them holds water and I have read enough books, say about 100 of them to know that God does things his way, not yours. After all, he's building HIS church, not yours.

 

[StanJ]

I'd like to point out that Asperger's, is an autism spectrum disorder, so we need to NOT stereotype people with any kind of ASD, especially given that most people on this site have very little understanding of mental disorders, and hardly qualify to even be a lay person on the subject.

BTW, I am CLINICALLY depressed AND have AADD, so I somewhat understand THIS particular issue.

 

[Wormwood]

I agree Stan.

 

[StanJ]

I agree Stan.

Thank you...I think most people forget that the human race through Adam was condemned to death, and that death does not only come in the life animation leaving the body. Death is also corruptibility and degradation, which means the human gnome get less and less reliable the longer we pro create. Blaming Satan for congenital or hereditary defects is nothing more than reactionary and does NOT address the real issue, which is human imperfection, both physical and mental, along with our carnal nature. Those who believe that Christians are not meant to suffer sickness in ANY way, are extremely deluded and misinformed.

 

[marksman]

In the UK, the biggest opposition to speaking in tongues were the Brethren. They had adopted the J.N. Darby's dispensationalism which said that things like tongues and the gifts in general passed away when the cannon of scripture was decided. They were no longer needed.

In the late 50s and early 60s, the UK was visited with what was known as the charismatic renewal. This was not a pentecostal thing as generally speaking they opposed it and made such comments as "so you have caught up at last."

The two denominations that were the most affected were the Anglicans and the Brethren. I spent 10 years in a charismatic brethren church which was part of what was known as the renewal or restoration church. Many Anglican churches were embracing the charismatic renewal which included speaking in tongues and miracles of healing. One of their most well known ministers in this regard was Michael Harper who wrote books about it.

The greatest impact however was in the Brethren movement.Having been to a Brethren Bible College I was deeply involved in the movement and met up with several of its leading lights one of whom was Arthur Wallis. Despite their doctrines regarding the gifts of the spirit you could not fault their character and graciousness.

Arthur told us that he was at prayer at home as usual and without warning or knowledge started speaking in tongues although he did not know what was going on. It wasn't until two weeks later when he was talking to someone and telling him what had happened he learned that he was speaking in tongues.

David Lillie, another gracious and godly Brethren Elder had the same experience of speaking in tongues and eventually wrote a book about it to prove the trustworthiness of the experience.

​The Brethren Elder who started up the charismatic Brethren Fellowship I was in was told that he had to stop speaking in tongues or resign as an Elder. He chose the latter and started to meet in his home with his wife and another person.

Those three were used by God to start a charismatic brethren movement that spread all over England. This was followed by two more movements and they came to be known as the restoration movement. Characteristic to all three were the use of the gifts of the Spirit and healing. That was in the early 60s and all three are still going.

In our meetings which could go for up to six hours, the gifts of the Spirit were commonplace and people came from all over the country to see the move of the Spirit that was taking place. That is how the movement spread as these people went back home and started up the same sort of thing. As a result, hundreds of fellowships sprang up all over the country.

One thing the brethren elder that started our fellowship would not stand for was sensationalism. He stamped on it very heavily so our meetings had great depth as a result. In the 10 years that I was there we only had to intervene in what was going on five times to bring it back to order such was the depth of those who ministered. Despite this, anyone was free to minister if they felt that had something from the Spirit to give.

People can criticise all they want and they did, there was nothing to fear from speaking in tongues or that people were being led astray. I gave several interpretations to messages in tongues given in the meeting.

The other thing was that stories started to emerge that someone spoke in tongues in a meeting and another person gave the interpretation. The tongue given was a foreign language that the person giving it had not learnt but they found out from someone who did know the language that what they said was grammatically perfect.

Whatever you think or don't think, God used the gifts of the Spirit in general and tongues specifically to advance the Kingdom of God in the UK in the 60s. If that does not fit in with your theology, you will have to take it up with God.

 

[Barrd]

I'd like to point out that Asperger's, is an autism spectrum disorder, so we need to NOT stereotype people with any kind of ASD, especially given that most people on this site have very little understanding of mental disorders, and hardly qualify to even be a lay person on the subject.

BTW, I am CLINICALLY depressed AND have AADD, so I somewhat understand THIS particular issue.

As I said, I have a son who is autistic. It's something I've been dealing with for 45 years.
Of course, you're right...we need not "stereo type". However, someone telling me that they are autistic automatically sets off a couple of alarms in my brain.
When that person is also involved in the whole charismatic thing....well, let's just say that I am not impressed.

As I've said, show me some scriptural authority for this "slain in the spirit" thing, and I will apologize publicly for ever having doubted it.

And isn't it strange that this practice was practically unheard of until the 50s and 60s? Where did it get it's start? What was really happening?

 

[StanJ]

As I said, I have a son who is autistic. It's something I've been dealing with for 45 years.
Of course, you're right...we need not "stereo type". However, someone telling me that they are autistic automatically sets off a couple of alarms in my brain.
When that person is also involved in the whole charismatic thing....well, let's just say that I am not impressed.

As I've said, show me some scriptural authority for this "slain in the spirit" thing, and I will apologize publicly for ever having doubted it.

And isn't it strange that this practice was practically unheard of until the 50s and 60s? Where did it get it's start? What was really happening?

Not the issue Barrd, and in fact, this POV may be what prevents you from seeing what CAN happen by the power of the Holy Spirit.
There are many examples of God's spirit killing people in the OT when they got to close, but under the NC, the Holy Spirit was meant to be our POWER. Sometimes that power can effect the physical in an overwhelming way.
I found the following article by Matt Slick to be a very level understand of the issue.

https://carm.org/questions/about-church/what-does-it-mean-be-slain-spirit