OzSpen said:
The Barrd,
It is with great sadness that I see that you have been exposed to some terrible extremism in the Pentecostal-charismatic movement. However, you and I need to be warned of these biblical emphases:
- 1 Cor 14:39 (NIV), 'Therefore, my brothers and sisters, be eager to prophesy, and do not forbid speaking in tongues'.
- 1 Thess 5:19-22 (NIV), 'Do not quench the Spirit. 20 Do not treat prophecies with contempt 21 but test them all; hold on to what is good, 22 reject every kind of evil'.
I have to admit that in my 30-year association with Pentecostals I saw very little teaching on this testing the spirits' ministry. It would have been biblical to hear a pastor say, after a manifestation, 'Let's stop to do what the Scriptures tell us to do: We must test the spirit of theat manifestation. Was it of God or not?' I don't recall anyone ever taking that approach.
All of us have to be aware of the danger of committing a
hasty generalization logical fallacy.
However, the application is broader than Pentecostalism:
- 1 John 4:1 (NIV), 'Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world'.
In my years of interacting on Christian forums, I have found that this is where the wisdom of 1 John 4:1 (NIV) needs to be applied. There is a drove of false teaching on such forums that needs to be tested and corrected. I participated for a very short time on a forum where they did not want to correct false doctrine because that would not be promoting grace and redemption. As a result Pentecostal Oneness, Jesus Only false teaching was allowed, without correction. When I pointed this out, I was accused of being a legalist. Do you remember one of the characters in John Bunyan's
Pilgrim's Progress, 'Valiant-for-truth'? That's who I was when pointing out the error of Pentecostal Oneness. But that topic is for another time and place.
However, the issue I'm raising is that testing the spirits relates to the core of Christianity. Until Jesus returns, that task will be our constant challenge.
In Christ,
Oz
Oz,
Again, my friend, I live in the middle of it. If what I am seeing is, as you say, "terrible extremism", it could be because this is a terribly extreme movement. What I've written about here is just the tip of the iceberg. One of my grandson's friends came to me, crying because he thought he was going to hell for his "sin". It seems that his church, with his parents' permission and cooperation, had locked him in a darkened room with no food or water or bathroom privileges...they came in every hour or so to "lay hands on him" and pray over him, until he should "receive the Holy Spirit. After nearly three days of this, the kid crumbled, and began to fake tongues, and sure enough, they let him out. He had obviously been "baptized with the Holy Spirit"... Now, that is probably the most terribly extreme thing I've heard of...but this is the kind of thing that disgusts me.
And if you think you are sad about it, how do you think I feel? What am I supposed to say to this kid? I told him that he had not sinned...but after that, I really didn't know what else to say.
Before I look at any of the verses you posted, I'd like to post one of my own.
Mat 24:24
For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
Keeping that in mind, let's look at your verses:
- 1 Cor 14:39 (NIV), 'Therefore, my brothers and sisters, be eager to prophesy, and do not forbid speaking in tongues'.
Now, I don't have anything against the NIV, but what I have downloaded on my machine is the KJV.
What, exactly, are "tongues"? Are they just gibberish, or are they actually languages?
We first see them in Acts 2.
Act 2:3 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.
Act 2:4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance
And they seem to have drawn a crowd.
Act 2:7 And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galilaeans?
Act 2:8
And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born?
Act 2:9 Parthians, and Medes, and Elamites, and the dwellers in Mesopotamia, and in Judaea, and Cappadocia, in Pontus, and Asia,
Act 2:10 Phrygia, and Pamphylia, in Egypt, and in the parts of Libya about Cyrene, and strangers of Rome, Jews and proselytes,
Act 2:11 Cretes and Arabians,
we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God.
These guys were not speaking in some unknown "prayer tongue" or in "angel tongues"...they, like my friend on the help line, were speaking in actual human languages that people could hear and understand. (Perhaps they were speaking in the original human language that existed before Babel? A possibility to consider, yeah?)
What is for sure is that they were definitely not babbling gibberish, as we see so often in the charismatic moveme
That having been cleared up, I would agree with Paul in 1 Cor 14:
1Co 14:27 If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and that by course; and let one interpret.
1Co 14:28 But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God.
1Co 14:33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.
1Co 14:40 Let all things be done decently and in order.
Putting your verse in this context does make a difference, yeah?
- 1 Thess 5:19-22 (NIV), 'Do not quench the Spirit. 20 Do not treat prophecies with contempt 21 but test them all; hold on to what is good, 22 reject every kind of evil'.
As you say, we never hear anyone talking about testing the spirit behind these manifestations. Golly, gee...I wonder why that is?
Oh, and you forgot my favorite of these exhortations:
1Th 5:22 Abstain from all appearance of evil.
Don't hear much of that one any more either....
It isn't exactly "politically correct".
- 1 John 4:1 (NIV), 'Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world'.
And I see you have discovered for yourself...those false spirits do not like you coming along and trying to roust them from their hiding places.
I'm afraid that, until Jesus comes back, ol' "Valiant for Truth" is just not going to be a very popular fella...
The Barrd
