Snowflake Babies...Are They Life?

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JohnDB

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We, as Christians often take the stance that abortion is wrong and killing of the unborn.

So....
Here's an unclear problem.

Often when a couple is unable to have a normal pregnancy they resort to fertility treatments including using "test tube" babies. Where a fertilized egg...AKA an embryo is implanted in the wife and she now is "pregnant" so long as it takes. (Failures happen often)
Sometimes the eggs are "borrowed" from an anonymous donor and same with the semen.

Often they don't fertilize just one...they often fertilize several eggs at the same time. The rest frozen until such time as they are desired or destroyed or used for research purposes until made illegal by Bush Jr.

So....
Are they life?
Are they subject to law?
Can they be abused by neglect?
Alabama seems to think so.

 
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Chains Broken

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I believe a fertilized egg is life.

‭‭Jeremiah 1:5 implies that life can exist before it is formed in the womb:

[5] Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, And before you were born I consecrated you; I have appointed you as a prophet to the nations.

I don't think human life is something to play around with and store in a freezer.
 

JohnDB

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I believe a fertilized egg is life.

‭‭Jeremiah 1:5 implies that life can exist before it is formed in the womb:

[5] Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, And before you were born I consecrated you; I have appointed you as a prophet to the nations.

I don't think human life is something to play around with and store in a freezer.

Some friends of my wife and I were wanting to have another child to add to their family...and they found out that they could not have anymore through natural means after extensive testing. (Not getting into details because it's not relevant)
So...this young couple looked into "adopting" a snowflake baby.

And literally were handed a catalog including full color pictures of what the snowflake babies/children would look like and included health predictions and aptitude possibilities.
This made possible by DNA profiles of the embryos. (Kinda shocking to say the least)
 

Chains Broken

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Some friends of my wife and I were wanting to have another child to add to their family...and they found out that they could not have anymore through natural means after extensive testing. (Not getting into details because it's not relevant)
So...this young couple looked into "adopting" a snowflake baby.

And literally were handed a catalog including full color pictures of what the snowflake babies/children would look like and included health predictions and aptitude possibilities.
This made possible by DNA profiles of the embryos. (Kinda shocking to say the least)
This is surprising. Do you know if this information was just based on the biological parents' DNA, or from the DNA in the actual embryo?
In other words if they had two different snowflake babies from the same set of parents, would the two babies have different profiles?
 
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Taken

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Life of a human is it’s BLOOD.

Life of a person is it’s body and soul.
(Blood AND Gods Breath of Life)

Life of a Converted “IN” Christ is it’s Saved soul and quickened (Born Again) spirit.
 
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Aunty Jane

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We, as Christians often take the stance that abortion is wrong and killing of the unborn.

So....
Here's an unclear problem.

Often when a couple is unable to have a normal pregnancy they resort to fertility treatments including using "test tube" babies. Where a fertilized egg...AKA an embryo is implanted in the wife and she now is "pregnant" so long as it takes. (Failures happen often)
Sometimes the eggs are "borrowed" from an anonymous donor and same with the semen.

Often they don't fertilize just one...they often fertilize several eggs at the same time. The rest frozen until such time as they are desired or destroyed or used for research purposes until made illegal by Bush Jr.

So....
Are they life?
Are they subject to law?
Can they be abused by neglect?
Alabama seems to think so.

It is a strong desire in many women to become a mother. Fertility treatments and surrogacy can fulfill these dreams until something goes wrong...and the dream turns into a nightmare.

In ancient times, they practised a form of surrogacy when a secondary wife or slave of the wife could have children for the infertile woman. (Abraham and Sarah did this) This resulted from natural intercourse between the husband and the “other” woman. God’s law did not promote this practice, but accommodated it perhaps because of God’s promise to Abraham that his descendants would become very numerous. The more children they had the better the fulfilment of this promise. (?) But when Christ came, he returned the people to God’s original standard of marriage...one man, one woman.

When we mess with the stuff of creation, we are treading on sacred ground. All manner of problems can arise when we want to tell nature how to behave. Adoption is a good way to avert these problems but comes with its own hazards....genetic Russian Roulette. There is no guarantee that the genetic inheritance of the child will not result in personality traits that are out of harmony with the adoptive parents expectations.....but then even natural children can go that way too. There are never any guarantees.

If a third party is involved then there is implied ‘adultery’. The method isn’t the problem.
But if the procedure involves only the married couple and they are willing to accept responsibility for the life they create artificially, then that is their personal decision.

We remember “Octomom” who had all 8 of her frozen embryos implanted because she could not bear the thought of discarding them. She hoped that nature would make the selection that she could not. But despite enormous odds, all 8 implanted, and she gave birth to 8 babies. It created an enormous amount of public attention and criticism, but there you have the kinds of problems that are unforeseen.....

I see adoption of these embryos as the only solution, at no cost. That way at least the life that is created has a chance to live. But it should make people pause and think through the possible dilemmas that artificial insemination can create. We should allow nature to dictate our course....that way we will not be faced with those dilemmas. Life has enough difficulties.....
 
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JohnDB

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This is surprising. Do you know if this information was just based on the biological parents' DNA, or from the DNA in the actual embryo?
In other words if they had two different snowflake babies from the same set of parents, would the two babies have different profiles?
Individual embryos. Apparently it only costs roughly $100 per embryo.
 
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JohnDB

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Life of a human is it’s BLOOD.

Life of a person is it’s body and soul.
(Blood AND Gods Breath of Life)

Life of a Converted “IN” Christ is it’s Saved soul and quickened (Born Again) spirit.
Embryos do not have blood as yet. Too early in their development for a heart or blood.
 

Taken

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Embryos do not have blood as yet. Too early in their development for a heart or blood.

I think it is about 10 weeks for the heart formation, a bit earlier for the circulation system, but agree, blood is not yet present.

God IMO, did not seem to acknowledge ADAM, until he was fully FORMED and received Gods Breath of Life.
As well, the Lord puts a lot of emphasis on a live BIRTH.

Is a developing human a living thing? I suppose, just like a developing plants roots are a living thing….But is a developing human an individual? No. A person? No.

I do not favor Abortions out-side of a medical emergency, and do feel the time line for an abortion, being decided on “time /weeks”, per law-makers is a ridiculous basis.
Nor do I feel as if any medical professional should be Forced against their will to participated in terminating a pregnancy. Nor would I call terminating a pregnancy murder. And I definitely think it an utterly irresponsible method of a female choosing that for birth control.
It’s a slippery slope all ways around.

The whole pseudo gender “assignment”, queerdome, performance of sexual surgeries, particularly on children. The advocation, promotion, is utterly insane and people are falling for it, as if they are whimsically choosing a flavor of chewing gum to try out.
 
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Chains Broken

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Is a developing human a living thing? I suppose, just like a developing plants roots are a living thing….But is a developing human an individual? No. A person? No.
Why isn't a developing baby an individual? They have their own DNA, they have their own heartbeat, they have their own body. Seems like a individual person to me.
How could they be living humans but not people?
 
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Taken

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Why isn't a developing baby an individual?
]

Because they are attached to their life support (placenta).

They have their own DNA, they have their own heartbeat, they have their own body. Seems like a individual person to me.
How could they be living humans but not people?

They are in a developing process.
You don’t expect fruit from a tree that only has roots.
You don’t call a confectionary a Cake because you are adding ingredients, or even when all the ingredients are added to a bowl.
You don’t call stick framed lumber a house.
You don’t call a house clean, while you are cleaning it.

Everything has a process even LIFE and DEATH and why a pregnant female doesn’t HAVE a baby, she is EXPECTING a FORM-ED baby.
 

Chains Broken

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Because they are attached to their life support (placenta).
People who have health problems can be on life support, that doesn't mean that they're not people.
They are in a developing process.
You don’t expect fruit from a tree that only has roots.
You don’t call a confectionary a Cake because you are adding ingredients, or even when all the ingredients are added to a bowl.
You don’t call stick framed lumber a house.
You don’t call a house clean, while you are cleaning it.
Childhood and adolescence are both development processes as well, yet children and adolescents are considered people. In fact human brains take about 25 years to fully develop.
Everything has a process even LIFE and DEATH and why a pregnant female doesn’t HAVE a baby, she is EXPECTING a FORM-ED baby.
You could also use the phrase that a pregnant women is "with child", implying that she has a child inside her. The phrases we use to describe a pregnant woman are a reaction to what we see, they don't define life or no life.

I guess I'm kind of confused because one of the definitions for "person" is "a living human" (see below) and you said in your earlier post that a developing human is living. So if the baby is both living and human, by that definition they are a person.

 
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Big Boy Johnson

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Are they life?
Are they subject to law?
Can they be abused by neglect?
Alabama seems to think so.

Yep, they should be treated as babies.


Individual embryos. Apparently it only costs roughly $100 per embryo.

Did you pick up a few to throw in the freezer... along with a turkey baster?
 

JohnDB

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Yep, they should be treated as babies.




Did you pick up a few to throw in the freezer... along with a turkey baster?
The DNA tests are done individually on each embryo....that's what I was saying. Or at least trying to. The embryos themselves? I have no idea what an embryo costs.

There's a service where your wife and you get treatments to submit samples where the doctors then make several embryos and then test them for DNA and you pick the best ones (based on whatever criteria) for implantation.

The things the scientific community can do is off the hook anymore.
 
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Taken

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People who have health problems can be on life support, that doesn't mean that they're not people.

A person has already become born and has a soul. They are an individual whether they are attached to a machine or not.

Childhood and adolescence are both development processes as well, yet children and adolescents are considered people.

A living human with a soul is a person, an individual regardless of age or gender.

In fact human brains take about 25 years to fully develop.

Some body parts never fully develop. If it is human, born, has a soul, it is an individual person.

A human that has been born alive, has a soul, bodily dies, it is no longer a person. It is not called a person.

You could also use the phrase that a pregnant women is "with child", implying that she has a child inside her. The phrases we use to describe a pregnant woman are a reaction to what we see, they don't define life or no life.

The phrase “with child”, is a man-made phrase to indicate, an expectation of a birth of a person.

I guess I'm kind of confused because one of the definitions for "person" is "a living human" (see below) and you said in your earlier post that a developing human is living. So if the baby is both living and human, by that definition they are a person.

A developing human in the womb has life, but is not a person.

Creation of a human, is physical and spiritual.
* a seed is planted.
* a seed becomes fertilized.
* the fertilized seed has cells that divide and multiply rapidly, making, cells that will produce a placenta, (a life line), and cells that will make, body parts, organs, tissue, systems, within the body.
* through the placenta, the developing (expectation of a human), is oxygen, nutrition and waste transferred.
* the body is (created) formed by the hand of God.
* Once formed it is prepared for delivery FROM the womb and separation FROM the placenta.
* the thing exits the womb, and is separated from the female when the cord is cut, and is called delliver-ED, born.
* the placenta exits the womb and is discarded as waste.
* the formed and delivered, born human, receives a (another life line), a soul, from God, with His Breath in it.
* once the expected human, IS delivered, born, separated from the womb, the placenta, received it’s soul with Gods Breath, it is NOW become “MADE” a Living Person.
* Whatever NAME that BODY is given, so also is the SOUL identified by that NAME.
* That Body, it’s Body Parts, it’s Soul, are all specific, individual, personally that individuals: to say, his, hers, me, my, mine, I, etc. pronouns that relate to THAT individual.

God “creates” humans FROM seeds, and FORMS their BODY.
God “makes” humans LIVING with His SOUL, His LIFE in a SOUL, He “BLOWS” into a FORMED Body.
Once the human IS BORN, it continues to grow, mature, communicate, learn, make choices.
Regarding Individual Persons…

God created AND made manKIND, what He called…….VERY GOOD

They are CREATED once…and God has Offered all individuals the opportunity to B] Choose [/B]for God to MAKE them ‘WHOLE’…
wholly, whole and holy…”IF” they so choose, and “DO” so…
According to Gods “order and way”.

Gen 2:
[3] And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.

Gen 1:
[31] And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

John 5:
[6] When Jesus saw him lie, and knew that he had been now a long time in that case, he saith unto him, Wilt thou be made whole?

Glory to God,
Taken
 

Big Boy Johnson

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There's a service where your wife and you get treatments to submit samples where the doctors then make several embryos and then test them for DNA and you pick the best ones (based on whatever criteria) for implantation.

They charge way too much money.... this can be done on the cheap at home with a turkey baster smile-grin12.gif
 
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Taken

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God considers it to be a baby View attachment 42124

God forms the body. I doubt He pauses before the thing is form-ed and calls it a manKIND of thing.
Natural Birth and Spiritual Birth are pre-requisites to receive the making of a saved soul, a quickened spirit and glorified body and live forever.
 

Chains Broken

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A person has already become born and has a soul. They are an individual whether they are attached to a machine or not.


A living human with a soul is a person, an individual regardless of age or gender.
Yes I agree. However I believe that an unborn baby is also a living human with a soul. The baby can have a heatbeat, move around and kick in the womb, and can respond to stimuli. I don't believe a soul is something that is only bestowed on babies the moment they are born, but rather something they have beforehand. I don't think a human can be alive but not have a soul.

A human that has been born alive, has a soul, bodily dies, it is no longer a person. It is not called a person.
That is why the definition of "person" That I used above is "a living human".

The phrase “with child”, is a man-made phrase to indicate, an expectation of a birth of a person.
Yes that was my point. Our phrases are man-made, so I believe that saying a pregnant woman is "expecting" a birth doesn't prove that the baby in her womb is not a living person yet.

Thank you and I appreciate your input but since neither of us are going to change our minds I'm not sure there's a point in us going back and forth.
 
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