So, are Daniel 7:25 and Amos 8:11-12 related in prophecy?

[Timtofly]

How do pre-tribbers figure that the Holy Spirit in believers is somehow restraining the Antichrist, and is removed from the earth in the rapture?

1. The Holy Spirit is God, if you’re a trinitarian - and God has this characteristic you may have heard of: HES OMNIPRESENT, meaning everywhere present at all times - how then is He ever removed from the earth?

2. John saw in heaven souls of martyrs who were killed during the tribulation. That’s because there will be a tribulation church comprised of those who get saved after the rapture - so the church never leaves the earth, and they’ll have the HS indwelling them also.

The HE who restrains the A/C is never identified in scripture - but since an angel has power to grab Satan and restrain Satan in the bottomless pit for a thousand years, there’s no reason to assume an angel can’t be the restrainer of the A/C now.

Pre-tribbers should drop that simplistic and obviously wrong proof text for a pretrib rapture.

Shalom.

There is no post rapture/second coming church. There is also not the work of the Holy Spirit via the church after the 6th Seal. The Holy Spirit has been holding back the work of Satan in every human since Seth was born. The act of being Comforter, guide, teacher, and the fruits was to strengthen the church. The removal of the Holy Spirit works in conjunction with taking the mark, and one's name being removed from the Lamb's book of life. That is it for those people. They are no longer sealed, just like in physical death, one is not sealed by the Holy Spirit in sheol. At least the teaching has been, that those in sheol do not get a second chance to repent. I think that they will get one last chance to reject God to His face at the GWT. Since they have not listened to the Holy Spirit for x number of years will they still want to choose God then?

The Second Coming happens before Satan can reveal himself. Although I am sure Satan wants to jump the gun, if he could figure it out. The point is not even the church seems to want Satan revealed. They want the FP and AC first. John has been very much misinterpreted, and nobody is even getting the reveal in the proper order. They are trying to match up Paul in 2 Thessalonians 2 with Revelation. Yet they have 2 Thessalonians 2 wrong as well. It talks about both Satan and the FP. It does not even mention an AC. Satan is the man of sin. The FP is the lawless one. No one seems to be interested in the point Paul is making.

Some claim the Jesuits came up with pre-millinialism, pre-rapture thought. Does not an Antichrist tie into all that as well? Have we left out the part they wanted to deflect the popes from being accused of being the AC so they allegedly came up with a future AC involved in a rapture and pre-mill thought process to create an alledged futurism eschatology? Remember this deflection from the truth of what John wrote. There is a pre-trib Second Coming, because the Lamb and God on the throne bring the GT with them. They come in the 6th Seal and are here for the Trumpets and Thunders. That is the GT, and is less than 2 years long and getting shorter by the day. Satan's 42 months is not the GT, nor the Trumpets and Thunders. It comes after the GT. The tribulation of those days is not the GT. That would be the great great great generational tribulation of the last 1991 years starting with Stephen as the first martyr. The church was expecting to be all martyred. Obviously many lived long lives and died peacefully. The 5th Seal is the martyred church as well as the non-martyred church. Paul claims the whole church gets a robe of white, glorified. I mean many posters here still plan on being glorified without being martyred, well at least until 2020, the first year of the Seals being opened. Now the conversation on many minds is martyrdom or the mark.

The Revelation of Satan is not the actual reveal of him parading around the earth. It would have to be that Satan is understood as the man of sin and not some future (Jesuit inspired) AC. Now if the church repented and ousted Satan instead of whoring around with the guy.... Many have already met him and embrace him today. He does not need to make the news headlines, which (the news) is only for deflection any ways.

 

[Timtofly]

Astrophysicists say the universe is soccer ball shaped.

Science is wishy washy.

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

How do pre-tribbers figure that the Holy Spirit in believers is somehow restraining the Antichrist, and is removed from the earth in the rapture?

I don't know, I'm not a Pre-tribber.
From the start _ you jumped the gun, labeled me in a quite arrogant way, condescending and mean spirited way.
I am restraining myself at the moment.

... a characteristic you may have heard of: HES OMNIPRESENT

More condescension. Wow, you must have a lot of friends. Before you meet someone or know a little bit about them, you label them, presume they lack knowledge even to the do damental truth thay God is omnipresent. Wow. The Holy Spirit is still assisting oneself restraint - "Have some patience Ron, gentleness, kindness ... do not return with evil ..."

John saw in heaven souls of martyrs who were killed during the tribulation. That’s because there will be a tribulation church comprised of those who get saved after the rapture - so the church never leaves the earth, and they’ll have the HS indwelling them also.

Absolutely, he saw a multitude who have been killed and raptured (billions).

Let me point out that I believe in the Mid-Trib/Pre- Wrath view. The rapture occurs at the 7th Trumpet (last). Once the 7 Bowls of Wrath are released - no one ekse in earth repents, they actually curse God and attempt to war against him. They all have the mark of the Beast - ACCEPT A REMNANT Jewish population (Rom. 11), referenced as
"all Israel will be saved".. They are protected and will repopulate the earth (144k male virgins included with this amount, some 5 million.)

The HE who restrains the A/C is never identified in scripture

He has restrained evil since the beginning. Of course God is omnipresent. But with Israel in the Old Testament, He dwelled in their Temple. During Jesus ministry He was everywhere, but did not yet dwell in man until Pentecost.
Is it difficult to understand that just prior to His day of wrath, he releases evil, sends a strong delusion that they believe a lie and then judges them. Mankind without His restraint follows their own evil inclination. They become insane - to think they can war against God.
He still is with those he is protecting.

Fast forward to the Millennial kingdom. The church is raptured, we've all received new eternal bodies. Who will repopulate the earth during this time? There will only be Christians. You thinkn the ones left behind - I dont think so.
The 144k come to mind but the remnant Israel - who will once again be tested at the end of that age.

Pre-tribbers should drop that simplistic and obviously wrong proof text for a pretrib rapture.

Yep, they should. You need to drop a few character flaws too.

 

[The Parson]

When did the King James Version change the word firmament to dome in Genesis 1?

Never mind. I figured out what you were saying.

 

[The Parson]

Absolutely, he saw a multitude who have been killed and raptured (billions).

Let me point out that I believe in the Mid-Trib/Pre- Wrath view. The rapture occurs at the 7th Trumpet (last). Once the 7 Bowls of Wrath are released - no one ekse in earth repents, they actually curse God and attempt to war against him. They all have the mark of the Beast - ACCEPT A REMNANT Jewish population (Rom. 11), referenced as
"all Israel will be saved".. They are protected and will repopulate the earth (144k male virgins included with this amount, some 5 million.)

Hi Ronald. It's funny you mentioned that verse because it's my contention that "all Israel shall be saved" was added also.

 

[Oseas]

Daniel 7:25 is still in the future.

Daniel 7:25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out (I distinctly remember vex, and not wear out) the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.


The Antichrist is given power for 42 months, 3.5 years, to give the mark, and make war with, and overcome the saints.

Rev 13:5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.

Rev 13:6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.

Rev 13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

That’s the second half of the tribulation, aka the great tribulation.

To all
... the night cometh, when no man can work. John 9:v.4
Today is May 25, 2021 - Daniel 7:v.25 is still in the future, it means the prophecy will still be fulfilled in the near future, I mean in this current decade - 2020-2030.


The period "until a time and times and the dividing of time" refers to Revelation 11:v.1-2 (1,260 days or 42 months) and Revelation 13:v.5 (42 months or 1,260 days) , and this period is LITERALLY the FIRST half of the last week - the 70th of Daniel 9:v.27 - whose period will be ruled by the Man Beast of sea- the Pope- to whom the dragon - the Man Beast of earth-Revelation 13:v.11 - will give his Power, and his Throne (in JERUSALEM called Sodom and Egypt-Revelation 11:v.8), and great Authority-Revelation 13:v.2-, and the inhabitants of the earth(Israel 10 tribes-10 kings)-will worship the Man Beast of sea-the Pope- enthroned in Jerusalem infested of idolatry and witchcraft-and will fulfill LITERALLY 2 Thessalonians 2:v.3 and 9-12:

• 3 Let no man deceive you by any means: (mainly the Man Beast of sea-the Pope-, and the Man Beast of earth-the esoteric, and kabbalistic, and spiritist messiah of the Jews, a false messiah of the Jews) for that day -the Lord's Day- the seventh and last Day - shall not come, except there come a falling away first(TOTAL APOSTASY), and that man of sin be revealed-THE BEAST OF EARTH-, the son of perdition;

9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

11 And for this cause GOD shall send them - sent to Israel- strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: (should believe in the Vicarivs Filii Dei - the Beast of sea - the Pope - the Papacy)

12 That they all might be damned who believed not the Truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Be careful or get ready ... ... the night cometh, when no man can work. John 9:v.4

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

Hi Ronald. It's funny you mentioned that verse because it's my contention that "all Israel shall be saved" was added also.

I often use a half dozen versions from Bible Gateway's list of some 60 English translations. All the translations contain those words, "all Israel will be saved"; so these works you presented don't hold water up against thousands of expert translators that have given us many versions.
However, if by a fluke, that all of those highly qualified and educated scholars missed the alleged error, you don't even need it. The premise of Romans 11 leads to that very focal point, "all Israel will be saved". Take a look!

Romans 11 [excerpts] NASB 1995

Israel Is Not Cast Away

“God has not rejected His people” vs. 1

“God gave them a spirit of stupor,
Eyes to see not and ears to hear not,
Down to this very day.” Vs.8

“Let their table become a snare and a trap,
And a stumbling block and a retribution to them.
10 “Let their eyes be darkened to see not,
And bend their backs forever.” Vs. 9

“ But by their transgression salvation has come to the Gentiles, to make them jealous.”

“ For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead?” 15

“Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” vs. 19

And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.” Vs. 23

For if you were cut off from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these who are the natural branches be grafted into their own olive tree? vs. 24

“ partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in;” vs. 25

“and so all Israel will be saved; just as it is written,”
“The Deliverer will come from Zion,
He will remove ungodliness from Jacob.” vs. 26

“This is My covenant with them,
When I take away their sins.” Vs. 27

>>> Why did you leave out verse 27? They will be grafted in again, it is God’s Covenant with them. He blinded them for a purpose, to save the rest of us.

Remove that part of the verse and you still have the same implication.

Apparently that is God’s contention!

 

[The Parson]

Wow Ronald, you sure missed the point.

 

[Waiting on him]

I often use a half dozen versions from Bible Gateway's list of some 60 English translations. All the translations contain those words, "all Israel will be saved"; so these works you presented don't hold water up against thousands of expert translators that have given us many versions.
However, if by a fluke, that all of those highly qualified and educated scholars missed the alleged error, you don't even need it. The premise of Romans 11 leads to that very focal point, "all Israel will be saved". Take a look!

Romans 11 [excerpts] NASB 1995

Israel Is Not Cast Away

“God has not rejected His people” vs. 1

“God gave them a spirit of stupor,
Eyes to see not and ears to hear not,
Down to this very day.” Vs.8

“Let their table become a snare and a trap,
And a stumbling block and a retribution to them.
10 “Let their eyes be darkened to see not,
And bend their backs forever.” Vs. 9

“ But by their transgression salvation has come to the Gentiles, to make them jealous.”

“ For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead?” 15

“Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” vs. 19

And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.” Vs. 23

For if you were cut off from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these who are the natural branches be grafted into their own olive tree? vs. 24

“ partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in;” vs. 25

“and so all Israel will be saved; just as it is written,”
“The Deliverer will come from Zion,
He will remove ungodliness from Jacob.” vs. 26

“This is My covenant with them,
When I take away their sins.” Vs. 27

>>> Why did you leave out verse 27? They will be grafted in again, it is God’s Covenant with them. He blinded them for a purpose, to save the rest of us.

Remove that part of the verse and you still have the same implication.

Apparently that is God’s contention!

Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” vs. 19

Can you explain this please. Or at least whom the I is in reference to.

 

[Waiting on him]

10 “Let their eyes be darkened to see not,
And bend their backs forever.” Vs. 9

forever,,,,, how then will they all be saved?

 

[Waiting on him]

Wow Ronald, you sure missed the point.

Maybe orthodoxy isn’t such a reliable source?

 

[The Parson]

Maybe orthodoxy isn’t such a reliable source?

Maybe they've got their eyes in so many differing bible versions, that they wouldn't see a supernatural change if it bit them on their backside.

 

[Timtofly]

Can you explain this please. Or at least whom the I is in reference to.

Romans 11:13

13 But I am speaking to you who are Gentiles.

Paul is claiming the Gentiles are the "I". The Gentiles claim salvation (grafted in) because Israel was broken off.

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

Wow Ronald, you sure missed the point.

You simply stated that part of the verse in Romans 11:26, "all Israel will be saved" was added. I thought you meant added to scripture. You showed other studies that did not include those words. What point was I supposed to get?

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

Can you explain this please. Or at least whom the I is in reference to.

Branches is a metaphor. Jesus is the vine, we sre the branches. The chosen nation, starting with Abraham, was where the seed started to grow. Branches (un believing Jews) were broken off so that the Gentiles could be grafted in.
Paul is speaking to the Roman Christians. He said you will say, "I... " (vs. 18) means any one of them or us. Anyone of us can make that statement in vs. 19.

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

forever,,,,, how then will they all be saved?

"Aionios" has variable meanings. When it is used to describe a temporal realm that will someday pass away it means (ages, generations, lifetimes, epoch). When it is used to refer to it describe GOD, His domain or our salvation, it should be translated as eternal. Therefore "forever" or "everlasting" really is for ages, age-lasting, age-during.

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

Maybe they've got their eyes in so many differing bible versions, that they wouldn't see a supernatural change if it bit them on their backside.

Is that the kind of Pastor you were?If you thought someone was wrong, you would mock and ridicule them?
Join in with others, "Shoot arrows at him ... Get him, he does not conform to our teaching ..."
You won't get many rewards in heaven for That, not a "Well done good and faithful servant".
Glad I had a loving, mericiful Pastor, very gifted and educated as well!

 

[The Parson]

Is that the kind of Pastor you were?If you thought someone was wrong, you would mock and ridicule them? Join in with others, "Shoot arrows at him ... Get him, he does not conform to our teaching ..."
You won't get many rewards in heaven for That, not a "Well done good and faithful servant".
Glad I had a loving, mericiful Pastor, very gifted and educated as well!

Nope, I just believe that the god of this world has blinded so many Christians with these newer versions. If someone were to tell you that something was added, or something was taken away, you wouldn't even know it because of all the confusion Qrigen, and consequentially Westcott & Hort have caused.

 

[Oseas]

Branches (un believing Jews) were broken off...

Revelation 14:v.17 to 20

17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven(heaven? Ephesians 1:v.3), he also having a sharp sickle.

18 And another angel came out from the altar, which has power over FIRE(For what?); and cried with a loud cry to him that has the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.

19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of GOD.

20 And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs.


The Everlasting Spirit of GOD is a devouring/consuming FIRE

 

[Waiting on him]

Ok so, let me be certain I give this correct.


Romans 11:13 KJV
[13] For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:

so in the above scripture I should read this way

For Gentiles speak to Gentiles, inasmuch as
Gentiles am the Apostle of the Gentiles, Gentiles magnify my office:

is this correct?