So, are Daniel 7:25 and Amos 8:11-12 related in prophecy?

[Randy Kluth]

So it's been over two years since this thread came to an end. My question is have any of you seen any of the changes I mentioned in this thread?

As I said earlier, changes in Scripture translations are the product of imperfect men. They make errors. Some human errors are worse than others, particularly if they have agendas. But I don't think there is any grand satanic conspiracy, if that's what you're alluding to. Hey, it's been two years--I'm not sure what we're talking about?

 

[Randy Kluth]

I'm closing out for tonight. I'll throw this under the bus tomorrow. Protestants did their share of torture and murder. I'll ask again. Show me one - JUST ONE - verse that implicated Rome/Catholicism in any way?

I don't like to aim to kill at the RCC because I owe it historical Christianity. That's where it all started, with Peter and Paul, and with a lot of martyrs. I fully accept the Early Church, including its Romanization.

However, I am originating via my grandparents from Protestant countries, and maybe even in part from the Russian Orthodox Church. I'm not sold on the supremacy of the RCC.

It is perhaps the biggest church denomination, but Christianity is not united by organizational size, as if it is a hierarchy. Rather, we are united, one by one, through our personal relationship with Christ. Our relationship with each other is mutually derived from our own individual relationship with Christ. We share that in common.

Organization, of course, is fine and necessary. But there is no one big organizational hierarchy. That sounds more like imperialism than it does Christianity. A monopoly on institutional authority brings a dictatorship. And where there is a dictatorship there is an insulating of corruption among the leaders.

We're all sinners, and we should always be under scrutiny and answerable to some. We need oversight.

We all know that both the Protestant groups and the Catholics required a reformation. But it was difficult to achieve either one due to entrenched leadership in the organized church.

Church organizations tend to follow the politics in which the religion evolves. That's why Catholicism appeared in imperialistic form, having been born into an empire--the Roman Empire. Later religious movements, expanding into other countries, took on the form of their own nations. The religious institution then formed State Churches. We should not fight over this, but rejoice that "Christ is preached." (I'm deliberately leaving out the Separatists, for now.)

The argument that the RCC in some way relates to Antichrist or the False Pope emerged in particular out of the Protestant Reformation because it appeared the RCC resisted necessary reformation, and resisted it to the point of killing protestant leaders. This was a time when the RCC looked particularly bad, and provides a good argument for the idea the RCC could go corrupt again when Antichrist arises.

The 4th Kingdom of Dan 2 and 7 would make a good argument for Roman Imperial structures as being the final Antichrist of the age. It is when this Empire devolves into 10 states, and then is taken over by one emperor, that the Antichristian Empire emerges as the final form of the 4th Kingdom.

This Beast has a 2nd Beast allied with it, and it can be argued that since this is the Roman Empire, or a return to European paganism, that Rome will see a leader embrace Antichrist's paganism. This could conceivably be a corrupt Pope who completely turns from Christianity to worship Antichrist as a god.

But this is not meant to insult or attack the RCC. A corruption of it is different from saying it is corrupt now. However, I have questions about Pope Francis. I don't believe he's Satan, Antichrist, or a False Pope. But I do think he's corrupting Roman Catholic teachings.

 

[Randy Kluth]

I hope you prayerfully consider these subjects. Most people believe what the 'prophecy experts' teach. I do have a strict hermeneutic and I'm always willing to change my mind. Most Christians are unwilling to change their mind believing they already have these things figured out.

I've studied these things, off and on, over the last 50 years, and have changed my mind on numerous things. I have no axe to grind, no denominational tradition to support, and no book that I'm vested in. So, ditto, brother!

The sequence of kingdoms I believe in Daniel 2 predates the one that claims Rome is the legs of iron. It goes back to the time of Josephus which is...

Babylon = Head of Gold
Mede's = Arms of silver
Persian' s = Thighs of brass
Greeks = Legs of iron.

Yes, I argued this one with brothers and sisters for about a year or longer. I'm fully aware....

The reformers were convinced that since Rome crucified Christ, persecuted 1st century Christians, destroyed Jerusalem and Herod's temple, and persecuted Christians for defecting from the faith, they believed Rome would also emerge as the end-time beast of Daniel and Revelation. I believe the reformers were wrong about this and Daniel 2 and 7 as well.

Well, keep in mind that the Reformers also respected and borrowed from the Church Fathers, who believed the 4th Kingdom to be Rome. My own argument includes with this the idea that John wrote the book of Revelation in subtle descriptions of Rome, which he could not openly explain. He was under imprisonment by Rome, who would kill him for sedition if they heard him describe Rome as a "Whore."

We agree that in Daniel 2, Nebuchadnezzar's Babylon is the head of gold. After Babylon...

Daniel 2:39 And after thee shall arise another kingdom inferior to thee, and another third kingdom of brass, which shall bear rule over all the earth.

Most people believe that Medo-Persia form the arms of silver or the 'inferior kingdom.'

Yes, I believe the sense of its being "inferior" is an indication that from the 1st to the 4th kingdom is a digression, indicated by the degradation of the elements, from gold to iron mixed with clay. It certainly did not mean that the successor kingdoms were less strong--on the contrary, the 4th kingdom appears to be the strongest.

However, the inferior nature of each element in succession indicates that value is lost with each succeeding kingdom after Babylon. Perhaps Satan is losing his grip since Rome was eventually Christianized? But clearly, Rome was the biggest and the strongest--certainly not "inferior" in that respect!

The only thing said about the second kingdom is that it's inferior to Babylon. Was Medo-Persia the inferior kingdom? Absolutely not! The Median Empire was not only much smaller it was also short lived enduring only 6 years. Some interpreters claim this is a cultural or religious inferiority.

I'm not sure what gave each succeeding power less value, but as I said, it was not inferior in the sense of getting weaker or smaller. We agree on that much.

But I see the Medes and the Persians as representative of a co-equal kingdom consisting of 2 main branches, the "arms" of Nebuchadnezzar's image. They were synonymous in time, and as such the "arms," Media and Persia, appear at the same level below the head.

In descending order would come the belly and thighs, which I think represents the Greeks. We do associate with the Greeks hedonistic displays of gluttony and immorality, suggested by these body parts.

Finally, the 4th kingdom appears in succession to the Greek Empire, which is precisely what is taking place in Dan 11, when Antiochus 4 meets his match at the appearing of a Roman representative, who brings a halt to his Egyptian excursions. Rome does conquer the territories that the Greeks held, and like two legs appeared as Eastern and Western sections.

And as you mentioned, the Reformers recognized the importance of the Roman Imperial Tradition as it branched out across Eastern and Western Europe, and emerged in the West as the Holy Roman Empire. We have every reason to believe that here, in the heart of Christianity, Antichrist will appear after having softened the culture with a heavy does of secular humanism.

Daniel 8:3 shows that the Ram emerged from two kingdoms. The smaller horn is the INFERIOR kingdom of the Medes which rose first, and the larger horn that rose afterwards, the kingdom of the Persians. Then the two eventually merged into ONE kingdom - the Ram.

The Ram is defined as follows:
Dan 8.20 The two-horned ram that you saw represents the kings of Media and Persia. 21 The shaggy goat is the king of Greece, and the large horn between its eyes is the first king. 22 The four horns that replaced the one that was broken off represent four kingdoms that will emerge from his nation but will not have the same power.

Note that the Ram, which is both Media and Persia, is followed by Greece. And since the 4 horns of Greece are weaker than the 1st horn, Alexander the Great, they cannot be the 4th Kingdom, which is stronger than the preceding 3 kingdoms.

Daniel says the kingdom would, 'subdue all things, be divided and not cleave to one another, partly strong and partly broken, and mixed (arab/intermarried) with the seed of men. Islam has subdued nearly every religion in the Middle East.

That's not true of Rome or the EU but is certainly true of Arab Islamic tribes and clans scattered across the countries of the Middle East. Rome, Italy, and the EU, have strong alliances and are all a peaceful coalition of nations.

I don't agree. The deterioration from Roman Imperialism to Holy Roman Imperialism to State Monarchies is precisely the history of Europe and what Daniel describes as the legs become 10 toes. Anyway, that's how I see it.

Middle Eastern countries are, well...Middle Eastern, and not the major powers on earth. Europe, East and West, is much stronger.

Islam has tried to carry on the imperial tradition of Byzantium, but by WW1 it had largely faded away. The restoration of an Islamic caliphate is a failed venture.

NOT ONE VERSE points to Rome.

Please allow me counter your: "not one verse pointing to Rome." Not only do I see Rome as cryptically spoken of in the Revelation by John, but as you alluded, Rome is commonly viewed as the central power in the Bible, whose Kingdom Christ came into, died, and then transferred his Kingdom to from backslidden Israel.

From Constantine and Theodosius Christianity has branched out East and West, and today those territories are represented by the Slavic and the Germanic peoples, who now are turning away from their Christian tradition. This is, I think, the "apostasy" Paul spoke of in 2 Thes 2.

When Christian Europe becomes pagan Europe once again, I think the end is near and Antichrist is soon to rise. Don't you think?

I think it's an *apostate* Europe that yields forth the Antichrist--not the RCC. And it may be a corrupt RCC leader who tries to turn the church away from orthodox teachings--not traditional Catholicism.

One thing I'm sure of--Antichrist and his false associate will *not* be Catholic and will *not* be Christian. They will be thoroughly pagan, and try to turn Europe and the world away from Christianity. I believe the Antichrist will ultimately turn away from Rome and burn it.

 

[Randy Kluth]

The Four Beast of Daniel 7

Daniel chapter 7 was written about 35 years after Daniel's vision of the great statue in chapter 2 and written in the first year of Belshazzar who was the last king of Babylon. Chapter 7 depicts four end-time beast and isn't a historical repeat of chapter 2. Interpreters say that the Lion of Daniel 7 is Babylon.

How can the lion be Babylon when the date of the vision occurred in the first year of Belshazzar who was the last king of Babylon?

These are precisely the same arguments I've addressed in other places on these forums. However, it's a legitimate question. My belief is that due to the seeming synchronicity between Dan 2 and Dan 7, it appears that the 4th Kingdom is the same in both dreams.

In Dan 2 the dream begins with Babylon, and thus, in Dan 7 we have the 1st Kingdom also associated with Babylon. The language is flexible, and the tenses should be taken as such. Daniel's dream may have been a confirmation of Nebuchadnezzar's earlier dream, which took place at a much earlier time.

The Babylonian Empire had already risen some 50 years before and was on its way out when Daniel 7 was written! Why would Daniel prophesy about a kingdom that was already in existence for about 50 years and soon to end? Some atheists have actually caught onto this blunder and used it to debunk the bible by calling Daniel a false prophet which he would certainly be, since he prophesied about something already in existence.

As I said, the language of prophecy is flexible and may be comparable to how we might in English literature use a prolepsis or a flashback. The tenses can be used flexibly to indicate that something is rising, when it has already risen.

The fact is, Babylon was the 1st Kingdom in Nebuchadnezzar's dream, and he is identified as such. If Daniel is confirming this dream, which is mostly about the entire series of future kingdoms, then the mention of Babylon as a current power obtains future value in its association with its heirs.

Taking all 4 kingdoms together, they were really just at the beginning of their rise. I'll leave it at that. Have a good evening.

 

[Brakelite]

The Four Beast of Daniel 7

Daniel chapter 7 was written about 35 years after Daniel's vision of the great statue in chapter 2 and written in the first year of Belshazzar who was the last king of Babylon. Chapter 7 depicts four end-time beast and isn't a historical repeat of chapter 2. Interpreters say that the Lion of Daniel 7 is Babylon.

How can the lion be Babylon when the date of the vision occurred in the first year of Belshazzar who was the last king of Babylon? The Babylonian Empire had already risen some 50 years before and was on its way out when Daniel 7 was written! Why would Daniel prophesy about a kingdom that was already in existence for about 50 years and soon to end? Some atheists have actually caught onto this blunder and used it to debunk the bible by calling Daniel a false prophet which he would certainly be, since he prophesied about something already in existence.

A PROPHET CANNOT PROPHESY ABOUT SOMETHING ALREADY IN EXISTENCE WITHOUT TRULY BEING A FALSE PROPHET!

Most interpreters think that the vision of wings being plucked off and the heart of a man given to it refers to Nebuchadnezzar going mad and being restored 7 years later. That's unlikely since that happened about 20 years before Daniel had the vision! AGAIN! Daniel cannot prophesy about something that already occurred! The lion could certainly be today's Iraq. The wings being plucked off could represent the U.S. military leaving Iraq. Some people think maybe it's England. But it can't be ancient Babylon. All four beast of Daniel 7 are end time empires.

Daniel 7:2 Daniel spake and said, I saw in my vision by night, and, behold, the four winds of the heaven strove upon the great sea.

The great sea always refers to the Mediterranean sea. Daniel sees the four winds around the Mediterranean. These four beast came up out of the sea and similar to the beast of Rev 13 rising out of the sea. They're different from one another and very different from the vision of the statue in chapter 2 where those kingdoms are parts of a man, and here they are four separate and distinct beast. The first beast of Daniel 7 is like a lion. According to most experts this is the nation of Ancient Babylon and the same as the head of gold in chapter 2. BUT!

The vision of these four beast are figurative of 4 end time kingdoms competing to dominate the region around the Mediterranean. The word before in 7:7 says that this beast "was diverse from all the beasts that were before it; and it had ten horns."

The Hebrew word for "before" in this text is ‘qodam’ which means "in front of, in the presence of, not "historically before" as is commonly interpreted. This means the first three empires will be in the presence of (or stand before) the anti-Christ kingdom when it emerges. They are all end-time kingdoms.

The fourth "dreadful and terrible" beast is the one most people focus on. It's said to be 'diverse' from the others. It could be that the three beast depicted as the lion, bear, and Leopard are NOT Islamic. They are on the other side of the Med. Possible candidates are the Lion is England, Bear is Russia, leopard could be Germany under Sharia Law with liberal political rule and religious factions in power. OR, it has something to do with Northern Africa and some sort of Alliance. I don't know.

If Daniel wanted to indicate 'before in time' he had several other words he could have used.
Conclusion...

The Lion cannot be Babylon.
The date of this vision occurred in the 1st year of Belshazzar who was the last king of Babylon. Daniel sees this beast (lion) rising out of the sea. Babylon had already risen some 50 years before and was toward the end of it's reign. Daniel's prophecy of the lion can't be about ancient Babylon because it was already in existence.

The language of the chapter also indicates that this isn't a repetition of chapter 2. Chapter 2 to 7 is written in a different language than the rest of the book. Chapter 2-7 is written in Aramaic and the rest of the book of Daniel is written in Hebrew which means 2-7 pertains to the gentile nations and not to the Jews. Chapter 2 is the beginning of that section and closes with chapter 7.

So who are the four beast of Daniel 7? I don't think anyone knows for sure. One thing for sure, they are all end-time kingdoms.

A great deal of words in your post, but none of them had any biblical, historical, or tangible support aside from your personal conjecture, starting from your second sentence in which you declared the beasts, end-time beasts. Your second statement without any biblical support whatsoever was regarding the 'great sea'. The Mediterranean? Really? What evidence do you have apart from your ultimate focus and determination to obscure the truth that the 4th beast can only be pagan Rome from which papal Rome grew? Your Jesuit inspired 16th century counter reformation fiction is completely derailed by Daniel 8. I agree with another poster. This topic deserves its own thread.

 

[Davy]

Anyone care to convince a old preacher that these Bible changes aren't really happening???

Daniel 7:25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out (I distinctly remember vex, and not wear out) the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.

Amos said: 8:11 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord God, that I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the Lord: 12 And they shall wander from sea to sea, and from the north even to the east, (I also remember it being south, not east) they shall run to and fro to seek the word of the Lord, and shall not find it.

....

I've got tons more. Just looking for someone to talk me out of it.

I'd recommend you scrap all those doctrines from men for the time being, and just listen to God in His Word. The LORD is opening up understanding in His Word for His servants more today than ever, because we are so close to the end of this world.

The time for the "little horn" (final Antichrist) involving the "time, times, and the dividing of time" (1260 days) is about the coming "great tribulation" time Jesus taught. That is not about past history, it has not happened yet today. It will be for the time just prior to Lord Jesus' return on the last day of this present world.

We are already in the time of the Amos 8 spiritual famine though. The many divisions in today's Church, the hearts of many tiring of so many false prophets and Satan's attack of good Church leaders, the infiltration of Communism and paganism into the Church, even performances of pagan religion done in some Christian Churches right in front of the Communion Table of Christ, seminaries being taken over, non-Christian scholars making Bible revisions using pagan influenced Alexandrian texts that were not used by the early Christian Church, false prosperity ministries, the Lakeland movement of charismatic churches with spirits causing members to jump up down, run like animals, mimicking animal sounds, speaking gibberish, shaking and laughing uncontrollably, signs of spirit influence that can also be found in pagan India with the Kundalini events, etc. All these are signs of the influence of evil spirits and the 'famine' of many not hearing (understanding) The Word of God today. Those false movements would falter if their deceived supporters did not exist.

Why do those things exist in many Christian Churches today? I believe it is in prep for the coming Antichrist, the false-Messiah that Jesus warned about for the very end, that is to appear in Jerusalem and proclaim himself as The Christ, with... the power to work "great signs and wonders", raining fire down from heaven to earth in the sight of men (Matthew 24; Rev.13). Revelation 13:4-8 says that the whole world (except Christ's elect)... will worship the "dragon" (Satan), which will have power over all nations for 42 months, including over Christ's saints. Revelation 11:1-2 reveals the existence of a 3rd temple in Jerusalem with the orthodox Jews worshiping therein, but the outer court given to the Gentiles, and they will tread the holy city for 42 months, the same timing the "dragon" is given to work for the end of this world. That Rev.13:4-8 Scripture parallels the Daniel "little horn" prophecy.

The Revelation 11:1-13 events all happen within the 6th trumpet - 2nd Woe period that begins at Revelation 9:12-13. Jesus comes on the 7th trumpet - 3rd Woe. Thus those Rev.11:1-13 verses are all on the 6th trumpet timing just prior to the day of Jesus' coming. The 5th trumpet - 1st Woe begins per the end of Revelation 8 and flows to Rev.9:12. Therefore, Lord Jesus gave us a specific order for those events mentioned within those three last trumpet-woe periods.

It takes time to bring the many prophetic Bible events together about the end. They are spread out in many Books of God's Word. So we can waste time studying whatever other men think in God's Word, or we can get down to a strong discipline in study of all of God's Word for ourselves, asking The LORD to give us understanding in it. And I strongly, strongly, believe... that once one disciplines theirself in study of all of God's Word, becoming a 'workman' in it like Apostle Paul told Timothy, then The Holy Spirit will remind us of a matter we may have read and studied, and how it connects to other Bible prophecy, especially in regard to end time events. For one who only does topical Bible study, jumping here and there, and never covering all of God's Word line upon line, chapter by chapter, they will never come to that Holy Spirit fruition that He is able to help with our Bible study. Much of our Bible understanding will still be scattered with just topical study, and even more scattered when we get frustrated from it and begin to turn to commentaries.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Not even close. And to repeat myself, these changes are of the supernatural order, and not those of human hands. And these changes have only "made themselves evident" over the past decade. And even the changes to many works and literature from past centuries, even to the manuscripts themselves. You explain it to me please. Because I can't.
Analysis and Outcome thoughts to follow this post...

Really I'm not the expert--I would have to consult my brother who is much more informed in this area. However, after looking into this in a rather "sweeping way," my conclusion is not that this is a satanic conspiracy, but rather, an interest, long held in the Western tradition, of pursuing greater refinements of the Scriptural record. Copies can be altered by mistake or by agenda, and need to be checked against other manuscripts. And the great variety of words and expressions to be put into other languages requires many opinions and decisions.

All this is evidence of diligence, and not corruption. I would worry if there *weren't* changes! Certainly, language changes over time, and out-dated terms need to be put in more modern language if the ideas are to be properly translated. I was raised on the RSV Bible, but came in among Christians who were KJV only. I was able to read it but it was hardly "American English," which was much more comprehensible. The idea that "thee" and "thou" is inspired is ludicrous to say the least. I know this is an over-simplification, but it makes the point for me. Greater scholarship is always to be encouraged and not frightened away by the claim of "satanic conspiracy." Just my opinion....

Incidentally, I shared my concern with a forum that you recommended last night, that it was apparently now headed by someone who was promoting transgenderism. If indeed this is the case, shouldn't you check it out before recommending the forum? Wouldn't this be of more concern to you than changes in various translations that appear to be correcting copyists' errors?

I would deal with this last issue in private, but you didn't respond to my privately-stated concerns. You seem like a very nice guy and good Christian, so I'm a bit taken back that you aren't dealing with this last concern of mine?

 

[Brakelite]

Just as a teaser, @Father Jim , allow me to quote some early church leaders on the subject of the identity of the 4th beast...
The following comments are in relation to the identity of the restraining factor in...
2 Thess. 2:1 ¶ Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3 ¶ Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time…..

Authors note: this bolded portion is commonly referred to as “the restrainer”, that is, he who with-holds the development, establishment, or appearing of the Antichrist. The modern understanding of these verses, particularly in the futurist paradigm, is that the restrainer is in fact the Holy Spirit. The following evidence however should dispel such thoughts, and reveal the true facts…..7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

Nearly all commentators are unanimous that the ‘restrainer’, so called, was not named by Paul because it was too dangerous for him to do so. He had already spoken in person to the Thessalonian church on the matter, so they knew who Paul was writing about…the very power that if it had read that letter, would take no little umbrage to being informed that they would soon be removed from power and another rise up in their stead. The ‘restrainer’ of course being pagan Rome. Not a few of the early church fathers wrote on this subject, and all agreed that Rome was the one alluded to in Paul’s letter. Let me quote one or three.


Tertullian (160-240)
“‘For the mystery of iniquity doth already work; only he who now hinders must hinder, until he be taken out of the way.’ What obstacle is there but the Roman state, the falling away of which, by being scattered into ten kingdoms, shall introduce Antichrist upon (its
own ruins)? ‘And then shall be revealed the wicked one.”

“On the Resurrection of the Flesh,” chapter 24; Ante-Nicene Fathers, vol. III, p. 563

There is some debate as to whether the ‘falling away’ referred to here is in reference to the empire, or the church. Some say one, some the other, while some would contend that it can apply equally to both. This author contends that the falling away [spoken of by Paul in 2 Thess. 2:3] is in reference to the church, although when considered in reference to the state, it doesn’t do violence to the passage. The falling away of the church transpired when she aspired to political power at the expense of spiritual, thus committing spiritual adultery. (see Revelation 17:2; James 4:4) Either way, Tertullian was certain in his belief that the restrainer was the Roman Empire. That it was pagan Rome itself that inhibited in some way the rise of the antichrist. This was generally accepted throughout the church at that time, and it was common for the church to pray to God that He would keep the Roman power intact in order to keep the antichrist from coming to power in their time. So the consensus among church leaders of that time was that the moment pagan Rome disappeared, the Antichrist would then be free to rule. Note that Tertullian was referring also to Daniel 7 in his mention of the imminent division of the Empire into 10 separate powers, 3 of whom would be subdued or destroyed by the 11th little horn.

Elsewhere, Tertullian states:

“The very end of all things threatening dreadful woes is only retarded by the continued existence of the Roman Empire.”
(“Apology,” chapter 32; Ante-Nicene Fathers, Vol. III, p. 43).

Lactanctius, in the early 4th century wrote:
“The subject itself declares that the fall and ruin of the world will shortly take place; except that while the city of Rome remains, it appears that nothing of this kind is to be feared. But when that capital of the world shall have fallen, and shall have begun to be a street, which the Sibyls say shall come to pass, who can doubt that the end has now arrived to the affairs of men and the whole world? It is that city, that only, which still sustains all things.” (“The Divine Institutes,” book 7, chapter 25; Ante-Nicene Fathers, vol. VII, p. 220).

Cyril of Jerusalem (318-386).

But this aforesaid Antichrist is to come when the times of the Roman empire have been fulfilled and the end of the world is drawing near. There shall rise up together ten kings of the Romans, reigning in different parts perhaps, but all about the same time; but after those, an eleventh, the Antichrist, who by his magic craft will seize upon the Roman power, and of the kings who reigned before him, “three he shall humble” and the remaining seven he shall keep in subjection to himself.”
(Catechetical Lectures,” section 15, on II Thessalonians 2:4; Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers, vol. VII, p. 108 [New York: The Christian Literature Company, 1895]).

Much could be said about this quote; he also is clearly linking the prophecy of Daniel to the text of Paul’s, agreeing with other eminent writers of his time that out of Rome would evolve ten kings, 3 of whom the antichrist would subdue. When the restrainer, Rome, was to be taken out of the way, and the horns of Daniel 7 arise, the antichrist would be revealed.

Ambrose (died 398)
“After the falling or decay of the Roman Empire, Antichrist shall appear.”

(Quoted in, Bishop Thomas Newton, Dissertations on the Prophecies, p. 463)……

Chrysostum (died 407)
“When the Roman Empire is taken out of the way, then he [the Antichrist] shall come. And naturally. For as long as the fear of this empire lasts, no one will willingly exalt himself, but when that is dissolved, he will attack the anarchy, and endeavor to seize upon the government both of man and of God.”
“Homily IV on 2 Thessalonians 2:6-9,” Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers, vol. XIII, p. 389
[New York: Charles Scribner’s and Sons, 1905]…..

…..and finally Jerome (died 420)
“He that letteth is taken out of the way, and yet we do not realize that Antichrist is near.”
(Letter to Ageruchia, written about 409A. D. Letter 123, section 16; Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers, vol. VI, p. 236

Jerome’s testimony is interesting, because from his perspective, he had seen and witnessed the fall of Rome, but was yet to see the rise of Antichrist. The reason is that history had not yet revealed who the Antichrist actually was, despite the early beginnings of the church of Rome at that time. The 3 nations had yet to be vanquished: It was this event that would definitively prove the Antichrist’s identity.

 

[Brakelite]

I think it would be a good time to quote a Catholic source, the eminent historian Cardinal Manning.



“Now the abandonment of Rome was the liberation of the pontiffs. Whatsoever claims to obedience the emperors may have made, and whatsoever compliance the Pontiff may have yielded, the whole previous relation, anomalous, and annulled again and again by the vices and outrages of the emperors, was finally dissolved by a higher power. The providence of God permitted a succession of irruptions, Gothic, Lombard, and Hungarian, to desolate Italy, and to efface from it every remnant of the empire.
The pontiffs found themselves alone, the sole fountains of order, peace, law, and safety. And from the hour of this providential liberation, when, by a divine intervention, the chains fell off from the hands of the successor of St. Peter, as once before from his own, no sovereign has ever reigned in Rome except the Vicar of Jesus Christ.”
(Henry Edward Manning, The Temporal Power of The Vicar of Jesus Christ, Preface, pp. xxviii, xxix. London: Burns and Lambert, 1862).



Manning has clearly given an excellent summary of history which directly correlates with the prophecies of Daniel and Paul. While attributing the fall of Rome to God and the rise of the papacy to Him also, Manning seems oblivious to the fact that he is revealing the perfect fulfilment of the prophecy of Paul and Daniel. That when Rome fell, the ten nations arose, three were subdued, and the ultimate victor was the papacy! It was the papacy itself that the empire of Rome was restraining. It was the papacy that arose after the establishment of the ten horns. It was the papacy that had a major role in the subjugation of the 3 horns because being Arian in belief they were directly opposed to the rule of the pontiffs. It will be the papacy that will still be here at the second coming, when Paul says she will be destroyed by the “brightness of His coming”. Therefore it is the papacy which perfectly fulfils the criteria demanded of it in order to be identified as the Antichrist. And that my friends are precisely the reasons all non-Roman Bible commentators from the time of the 6th century on were almost unanimous in identifying the papacy as the man of sin. The power who entered the church (the temple of God) and by claiming the power to forgive sin, and shut out of heaven whom he will, and claiming universal spiritual and temporal authority over all the earth, thus claiming the prerogatives of God, “opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.”



The counter reformation, to which Father Jim is actively promoting, can only be successful if it completely alters either the hermeneutic of understanding prophecy, (from historicism to futurism or preterist, both Jesuit inventions) or alters the actual historicity of the prophetic record and it's symbolism. Father Jim seeks to remove the Roman Empire from the prophetic record. Did God not know? Was that small insignificant portion of history (several hundred years of iron rule and military conquest over most of Europe and North Africa that to this day affected society forever, including its involvement in the trial and crucifixion of the Son of God) not known by the God who sees the end from the beginning? It is a desperate attempt to obscure the truth, and hides the true Antichrist from view...the Papal power.

 

[strepho]

I use king James companion bible and STRONGS concordance.

Daniel chapter 7:25. Is satan in his role as antichrist 6th trump.

Amos chapter 8:11. . Is famine in the end times. It's hearing God's truth.

Amos 9:11 to 9:14. Pertains to the millennium. It's time of teaching and discipline for the spirtualty dead.

D THABAR in chaldean means = Judge, counselor.
KTISTES in Greek means = God
CHRISTOS in Greek means = messiah.
KOSMOKRATOR in Greek means/ world ruler.
KURIIAKOS in Greek means = Jesus.
I documented it, and backed it up with Greek and chaldean language.