So than who can be saved

[StanJ]

Actually, the names were written on the "foundations" not the wall. This image portrays the foundation of the church being the message of the Apostles. It has nothing to do with the individual salvation of John. This passage is no different than what we read in Eph. 2:20. It has nothing to do with OSAS or individual election.

Exactly...this is what Jesus referred to in John 14:2-3

 

[FHII]

I agree with you Wormwood, in that the message and lesson isn't about john's name being on the wall. But, there it is! I think thats what ATP was getting at.

Just because its not the main point doesn't mean you can overlook it as evidence.

John was a chosen apostle. The book of revelation came at the end of his life and it was the last "chapter" of his ministry and purpose. He was fulfilling his last task as an apostle, so of course his name was there.

ATP has a point, but not a conclusive one. Paul said he could be a castaway and still preach the gospel. John did his part.

My problem is that I also believe God's not going to let John report on such if it wasn't a done deal. Who were the 4 and 20 elders? John was one of them.

 

[ATP]

I admire your perseverance on this subject ^_^.

Thank you, and I will die knowing my salvation is secure.

 

[ATP]

I wake up every day thankful that I am not a part of non-osas false doctrine. It must be horrible to not know if your salvation is secure.

 

[Wormwood]

FHII,

Just because its not the main point doesn't mean you can overlook it as evidence.
John was a chosen apostle. The book of revelation came at the end of his life and it was the last "chapter" of his ministry and purpose. He was fulfilling his last task as an apostle, so of course his name was there.

Well, I would claim that the "evidence" here is simply that the foundation of the church is built upon the lives and ministries of these Apostles. I just do not see this as a case for OSAS. It could very well be that even if John saw his own name in particular as a foundation of the heavenly city, this has much more to do with God's choice based on foreknowledge rather than anything revolving around irresistible grace or divine determination. These concepts are just simply not supported in this vision John is having. If anything, John's vision teaches the opposite because the book of Revelation is filled with warnings about the need for various churches to "repent" and if they do not, their lampstand will be removed (Rev. 2:5), they will be destroyed by the sword from Christ's mouth (Rev. 2:16), Jesus will come against them (Rev. 3:3) and their names will be blotted out (Rev. 3:5).

I also think the statement about the "elders" is speculative at best. We are not told the identity of these "elders" (there are scores of views about this) and so the verse itself really offers no support to the OSAS paradigm (its only when that paradigm is used to interpret the verse that it becomes supportive, but that is a bit of circular reasoning).

I wake up every day thankful that I am not a part of non-osas false doctrine. It must be horrible to not know if your salvation is secure.

ATP,

This notion that those who do not hold to OSAS are continually living in fear about their eternal destiny is simply not accurate. Just because we believe a person has to persevere in the faith does not mean we wake up every day worrying about falling away. It only means that we take the command to persevere as meaningful and see our faith as precious which demands protection and growth. We do not believe we are saved by our works so we do not fear losing security due to our own inability or lack of power. Personally, I think we have more confidence than the OSAS person, because our confidence is not in a theological position, but a person, Jesus Christ. A Calvinist can wonder if they are really part of the "elect." The theological system itself does not resolve personal insecurities.

In sum, security does not come from a particular doctrine, but from knowing Jesus Christ. We know him by faith. Because I know the importance of faith, I seek to grow in it so I can better know the author of my salvation.

 

[StanJ]

Do we get saved because we believe, or because we get a money back guarantee?

 

[ATP]

ATP,

This notion that those who do not hold to OSAS are continually living in fear about their eternal destiny is simply not accurate. Just because we believe a person has to persevere in the faith does not mean we wake up every day worrying about falling away. It only means that we take the command to persevere as meaningful and see our faith as precious which demands protection and growth.

Of course non-osas have no fear of losing salvation. Why would they. Their ego has been perfected in self righteousness while preaching to the rest of the world that christians can lose their salvation. That is hypocrisy in its highest level. Works do not get you into heaven, only the blood of Jesus does. The religious Pharisees are in hell Wormwood.

We do not believe we are saved by our works so we do not fear losing security due to our own inability or lack of power. Personally, I think we have more confidence than the OSAS person, because our confidence is not in a theological position, but a person, Jesus Christ. A Calvinist can wonder if they are really part of the "elect." The theological system itself does not resolve personal insecurities.

You see, that's where you're wrong. You depend on your own ability and power, and at the same time you place your confidence in Jesus Christ? Where do you think your ability and power come from?? The devil has mixed truth with lies in your false doctrine, but I'm not surprised.

In sum, security does not come from a particular doctrine, but from knowing Jesus Christ. We know him by faith. Because I know the importance of faith, I seek to grow in it so I can better know the author of my salvation.

You depend on faith, yet you depend on your ability and your own power to keep you saved? Wow. Believing only comes once bro.......

John 5:24 NIV “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.

 

[mjrhealth]

Do we get saved because we believe, or because we get a money back guarantee?

Well if you dont believe God than what do you believe. we are saved wbecause we have faith in God and God is faithfull to keep His promise.

 

[Wormwood]

Of course non-osas have no fear of losing salvation. Why would they. Their ego has been perfected in self righteousness while preaching to the rest of the world that christians can lose their salvation. That is hypocrisy in its highest level. Works do not get you into heaven, only the blood of Jesus does. The religious Pharisees are in hell Wormwood.

ATP, I must say I am disappointed in your comments. After all the probing discussions we have had, I am shocked you would classify me as self-righteous and put me in the category of Pharisaical hypocrites. Faith is not a "work." There is nothing "self-righteous" about believing someone must trust in Jesus Christ to be saved. Maintaining faith is not a "work." The self-righteous Pharisees died in their sins and were condemned because they rejected the grace of God in Jesus Christ and claimed he was an agent of Satan. I am baffled that you would associate such actions with non-Calvinists.

You see, that's where you're wrong. You depend on your own ability and power, and at the same time you place your confidence in Jesus Christ? Where do you think your ability and power come from?? The devil has mixed truth with lies in your false doctrine, but I'm not surprised.

I am just going to assume you are having a bad day. Since when is the choice to accept or reject God's gift considered self-righteous works based on my own power? Allow me to clarify my position: I cannot save myself. I am a helpless sinner in need of God's grace. Only through the cross can I be cleansed and only in the power of Christ and God's Spirit can I be sanctified. God allows me to choose to accept and hold to His free, undeserved grace to me in Christ or to reject it and turn away from it.

So this belief makes me a self-righteous Pharisee who is promoting the devils lies? Are you serious? What gives you the right to condemn your brother who confesses his complete need for God's grace in Christ as you do? I disagree with your doctrine, but I would never call you such horrible things or question your salvation on such matters.

 

[ATP]

Faith is not a "work." There is nothing "self-righteous" about believing someone must trust in Jesus Christ to be saved. Maintaining faith is not a "work."

It's a work if you're depending on yourself to keep you saved. Are you covered in the blood of Jesus?

 

[Wormwood]

Faith is not a work. A person must believe in Jesus to receive grace. We are saved by grace through faith. Faith is the means by which we access grace. Grace is a gift and faith is the means by which we access that gift. Faith is always held in contrast to works in the writing of Paul. You are redefining works to include faith, which is not biblical. Can you show me a verse in the Bible that teaches faith is a work?

Of course I am covered by the blood of Jesus. That does not mean God forces me to believe. If the acceptance of grace is not a human choice, then God is the only one who really chooses. I think the necessary conclusions from this line of thinking are very unbiblical.

 

[ATP]

Faith is not a work. A person must believe in Jesus to receive grace. We are saved by grace through faith. Faith is the means by which we access grace. Grace is a gift and faith is the means by which we access that gift. Faith is always held in contrast to works in the writing of Paul. You are redefining works to include faith, which is not biblical. Can you show me a verse in the Bible that teaches faith is a work?

Of course I am covered by the blood of Jesus. That does not mean God forces me to believe. If the acceptance of grace is not a human choice, then God is the only one who really chooses. I think the necessary conclusions from this line of thinking are very unbiblical.

Right, and believing only comes once brother. A born again christian does not go back to atheism. The Holy Spirit will never leave the elect.

 

[Wormwood]

Right, and believing only comes once brother. A born again christian does not go back to atheism. The Holy Spirit will never leave the elect.

Ok, well, that is an assumption on your part (that I think has no foundation in the Bible). However, again this has nothing to do with works. We both agree that we are saved by grace through faith. I believe a person can turn from the faith and you do not. So let us quit the silly talk about salvation by works and dependence upon self. The very essence of our faith is dependence upon Christ.

 

[KingJ]

Do we get saved because we believe, or because we get a money back guarantee?

We believe because we are saved.

 

[KingJ]

Right, and believing only comes once brother. A born again christian does not go back to atheism. The Holy Spirit will never leave the elect.

I would re-rather phrase it as once you have touched Jesus, you have tocuhed Jesus and can never doubt this. An atheist who has touched Jesus has to lie to themselves / distract their thoughts from this reality, daily.

 

[ATP]

Ok, well, that is an assumption on your part (that I think has no foundation in the Bible). However, again this has nothing to do with works. We both agree that we are saved by grace through faith. I believe a person can turn from the faith and you do not. So let us quit the silly talk about salvation by works and dependence upon self. The very essence of our faith is dependence upon Christ.

You can't lose your salvation. It is impossible. Eph 4;30.

 

[ATP]

We've been adopted into a family...John 8:34-36 NIV, Rom 8:15-17 NIV, Rom 8:23 NIV, Rom 9:4 NIV, Gal 4:4-7 NIV, Gal 6:10 NIV, Eph 1:4-5 NIV, Eph 2:19 NIV, 1 Pet 5:9 NIV

Jesus died for past, present and future sins...Rom 4:7-8 NIV, Rom 6:10 NIV, Rom 8:38-39 ESV, 1 Cor 15:12-19 NIV, Col 2:13-15 NIV, Heb 7:23-25 NIV, Heb 7:27 NIV, Heb 9:12 NIV, Heb 9:24-28 NIV, Heb 10:10-14 NIV, 1 Pet 3:18 NIV

We belong to Christ...John 8:34-36 NIV, John 8:44 NIV, Rom 1:6 NIV, Rom 8:9-11 NIV, Rom 14:8 NIV, 2 Cor 10:7 NIV, Gal 2:12 NIV, Gal 3:29 NIV, Gal 5:24 NIV, Gal 6:10 NIV, Heb 10:38-39 NIV, 1 John 2:19 NIV, 1 John 5:12 NIV

We are written in the book of life forever...Luke 10:18-20 NIV, Phil 4:3 NIV, Heb 12:22-24 NIV, Rev 3:5 NIV, Rev 13:8 NIV, Rev 17:8 NIV, Rev 20:12-15 NIV, Rev 21:27 NIV

There is now no condemnation for those in Christ Jesus...Mark 16:16 NIV, John 3:18 NIV, John 5:28-29 NIV, John 8:11 NIV, John 16:11 NIV, Rom 3:6-8 NIV, Rom 5:16 NIV, Rom 8:1-2 NIV, Rom 8:34 ESV, Col 2:13-15 NIV, 2 Thess 2:11-12 NIV, 2 Pet 2:3 NIV, 1 John 3:21 NIV, Jude 1:4-5 NIV

Once we believe, we have eternal life...John 3:14-16 NIV, John 5:24 NIV, John 6:40 NIV, John 6:47 NIV, John 6:54 NIV, John 10:25-30 NIV, Acts 13:46-48 NIV, Rom 6:22-23 NIV, Eph 1:13-14 NIV, 1 Tim 1:15-16 NIV, Tit 1:1-3 NIV, Heb 9:12 NIV, 1 John 5:9-14 NIV

We are heirs to Christ...Acts 3:25 NIV, Rom 4:13-14 NIV, Rom 8:15-17 NIV, Gal 3:29 NIV, Gal 4:7 NIV, Eph 3:6 NIV, Tit 3:7 NIV, Heb 6:17 NIV, Heb 11:9 NIV

We have an inheritance that can never perish, spoil or fade...Dan 12:13 NIV, Matt 25:34 NIV, Acts 20:32 NIV, Gal 3:18 NIV, Gal 4:30-31 NIV, Eph 1:13-14 NIV, Eph 1:18 NIV, Col 1:12 NIV, Heb 9:15 NIV, 1 Peter 1:3-5 NIV

We are only justified once...Acts 13:39 NIV, Rom 3:24-28 NIV, Rom 4:2 NIV, Rom 4:25 NIV, Rom 5:9 NIV, Rom 5:16 NIV, Rom 8:30 NIV, Rom 8:33 ESV, Rom 10:9-10 NIV, 1 Cor 6:11 NIV, Gal 2:16-17 NIV, Gal 3:11 NIV, Gal 3:24 NIV, Gal 5:4 NIV, Tit 3:7 NIV

God will lose none of the elect...John 6:35-40 NIV, John 17:9-10 NIV, John 17:12 NIV, Rom 5:5 NIV

Nonbelievers are considered lost, not believers...Matt 18:12-14 NIV, Luke 19:9-10 NIV, John 10:25-30 NIV, 1 Cor 15:12-19 NIV, 1 Pet 2:24-25 NIV

Overcoming and being victorious is based on belief, not works...John 16:33 NIV, Acts 20:28 NIV, Rom 8:35 NIV, Rom 8:37 NIV, 1 Cor 15:54-57 NIV, 2 Cor 2:14 NIV, 1 Pet 2:24-25 NIV, 1 John 2:13-14 NIV, 1 John 4:4 NIV, 1 John 5:4-5 NIV, Rev 12:11 NIV

It's not our works that keep us saved, it's His...Isa 64:6 NIV, Matt 6:1 NIV, Matt 23:25-26 NIV, Matt 23:27-28 NIV, Luke 18:19 NIV, John 6:28-29 NIV, Rom 3:9-20 NIV, Rom 3:21-31 NIV, Rom 4:3-11 NIV, Rom 4:22-24 NIV, Rom 5:17-21 NIV, Rom 6:16-20 NIV, Rom 8:9-11 NIV, Rom 9:30-33 NIV, Rom 10:3-4 NIV, Rom 11:5-7 NIV, 1 Cor 1:30 NIV, 1 Cor 3:13-15 NIV, 1 Cor 8:1 NIV, 1 Cor 15:10-11 NIV, 2 Cor 1:9 NIV, 2 Cor 3:5 NIV, 2 Cor 5:15 NIV, Gal 1:6-7 NIV, Gal 2:21 NIV, Gal 3:1-5 NIV, Gal 3:6-7 NIV, Gal 4:9 NIV, Eph 2:7-9 NIV, Phil 1:9-11 NIV, Phil 2:12-13 NIV, Phil 3:8-11 NIV, 1 Tim 4:10 NIV, 2 Tim 1:9 NIV, Tit 3:5 NIV, Rev 15:4 NIV

We are sealed until the day of redemption...John 6:27 NIV, 1 Cor 9:2 NIV, 2 Cor 1:21-22 NIV, Eph 1:13-14 NIV, Eph 4:30 NIV, Rev 9:4 NIV

The seed of God that is in us is imperishable...Matt 13:20-23 NIV, Luke 8:11 NIV, 1 Cor 15:54-57 NIV, 1 Pet 1:23 NIV, 1 John 3:9 NIV

The truth will be in us forever...Eph 1:13-14 NIV, 2 John 1:2 NIV

And lastly, neither death nor life can separate us from the love of God...Rom 8:38-39 NIV, Rev 20:14 NIV.

 

[ATP]

If we can lose our salvation then Jesus did not die for all sins and is a liar.

 

[StanJ]

We believe because we are saved.

Not what Paul teaches KJ....Rom 10:9-11

 

[tom55]

Is that pride creeping through. So impatient. So many christians think they can read teh bible and figure it all out. Yet when one takes things to Christ, it can take 5 years just for Him to teach you the understanding of one line.

Salvation comes through believing not following, those who follow Him belong to Him, those whom God has given to the Son, His Sheep.

You believe in reading teh scripture to learn I spend most of my Life with Him patiently waiting for answer.

You have a long way to go. Go to Jesus learn from Him you will not find a better teacher.

In all His Love

AND STILL NO ANSWER TO MY QUESTIONS!