So than who can be saved

[tom55]

We are told many times in the NT (both in the gospels and the epistles) to endure. Mark 13:13 for example say he that endures to the end shall be saved. That alone is enough to answer both your questions, I believe.
So if "the end" for an OSAS person is committing suicide, will they go to heaven? If they make it to heaven what will God say to them?

Its a very odd thing to contemplate suicide in order to get closer to God. Especially when we can be close to him here ib this life. But even Paul pondered that very point. He came to the conclusion that he was here for God's purpose.

It is a very odd thing to contemplate. But I am posing this question to a OSAS believer so I can better understand what scripture teaches about suicide and what the effects of it are on people who are OSAS believers. It seems to me an OSAS believer can commit suicide and still be saved. Or am I wrong in my understanding of OSAS? (I'm just the student, you are my teacher)

 

[tom55]

If an OSAS believer decides to take their life so they can go to heaven, what would God say to them once they got there?
I guess only those who have done that will know the answer.

So the answer to what happens to a persons soul after suicide is not in the bible? We don't know what God teaches about suicide?


Not quiet the same thing, in heaven you dont have sin and the flesh to deal with, or hurt or pain or suffering or, well you hopefuly get the gist of it all.
I agree. On earth we have sin to deal with. If I am OSAS it doesn't matter if I sin on earth, does it? Even if I do sin I am still going to heaven because I am saved, right? Maybe I am misunderstanding the OSAS doctrine?

I am truly trying to understand the OSAS doctrine.

 

[ATP]

We are told many times in the NT (both in the gospels and the epistles) to endure.

Running the race and enduring has to do with winning or losing rewards in heaven, and has nothing to do with our original salvation. Believers are rewarded, not judged.

1 Cor 9:24-27 NIV Do you not know that in a race all the runners run, but only one gets the prize? Run in such a way as to get the prize. 25Everyone who competes in the games goes into strict training. They do it to get a crown that will not last, but we do it to get a crown that will last forever. 26Therefore I do not run like someone running aimlessly; I do not fight like a boxer beating the air. 27No, I strike a blow to my body and make it my slave so that after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified for the prize.

I am truly trying to understand the OSAS doctrine.

OSAS depends on grace to keep them saved and not works. Jesus died for all sins tom, even the sins you commit tomorrow. It's not about you. It's about Him and what He did on the cross for you.........

John 6:35-40 NIV Then Jesus declared, “I am the bread of life. Whoever comes to me will never go hungry, and whoever believes in me will never be thirsty. 36But as I told you, you have seen me and still you do not believe. 37All those the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away. 38For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. 39And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. 40For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.”

John 17:26 NIV I have made you known to them, and will continue to make you known in order that the love you have for me may be in them and that I myself may be in them."

Rom 7:21-25 NIV So I find this law at work: Although I want to do good, evil is right there with me. 22For in my inner being I delight in God’s law; 23but I see another law at work in me, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within me. 24What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body that is subject to death? 25Thanks be to God, who delivers me through Jesus Christ our Lord!

1 Cor 1:8-9 NIV He will keep you strong to the end, so that you will be blameless on the day of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9God, who has called you into fellowship with his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, is faithful.

1 Cor 3:13-15 NIV his work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each man's work. 14 If what he has built survives, he will receive his reward. 15 If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames.

2 Cor 1:9-10 NIV / 2 Cor 3:12 NIV Indeed, we felt we had received the sentence of death. But this happened that we might not rely on ourselves but on God, who raises the dead. 10 He has delivered us from such a deadly peril, and he will deliver us. On him we have set our hope that he will continue to deliver us,

Col 1:3-5 NIV We always thank God, the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, when we pray for you, 4 because we have heard of your faith in Christ Jesus and of the love you have for all the saints--5 the faith and love that spring from the hope that is stored up for you in heaven and that you have already heard about in the word of truth, the gospel

2 Tim 2:13 NIV if we are faithless, he remains faithful, for he cannot disown himself.

2 Tim 4:18 NIV The Lord will rescue me from every evil attack and will bring me safely to his heavenly kingdom. To him be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

Heb 6:16-19 NIV Men swear by someone greater than themselves, and the oath confirms what is said and puts an end to all argument. 17 Because God wanted to make the unchanging nature of his purpose very clear to the heirs of what was promised, he confirmed it with an oath. 18 God did this so that, by two unchangeable things in which it is impossible for God to lie, we who have fled to take hold of the hope offered to us may be greatly encouraged. 19 We have this hope as an anchor for the soul, firm and secure. It enters the inner sanctuary behind the curtain,

Heb 7:23-25 NIV Now there have been many of those priests, since death prevented them from continuing in office; 24 but because Jesus lives forever, he has a permanent priesthood. 25 Therefore he is able to save completely those who come to God through him, because he always lives to intercede for them.

Heb 12:22-24 NIV But you have come to Mount Zion, to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem. You have come to thousands upon thousands of angels in joyful assembly, 23to the church of the firstborn, whose names are written in heaven. You have come to God, the Judge of all, to the spirits of the righteous made perfect, 24to Jesus the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks a better word than the blood of Abel.

Heb 13:5 NIV Keep your lives free from the love of money and be content with what you have, because God has said, “Never will I leave you; never will I forsake you.”

1 Pet 1:23 NIV For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God.

2 John 1:2 NIV because of the truth, which lives in us and will be with us forever:

Jude 1:1 NIV Jude, a servant of Jesus Christ and a brother of James, To those who have been called, who are loved in God the Father and kept for Jesus Christ:

Jude 1:24-25 NIV To him who is able to keep you from stumbling and to present you before his glorious presence without fault and with great joy— 25to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen.

 

[tom55]

Since ATP can't answer my question on how suicide affects the OSAS belief maybe mjrhealth can?

 

[StanJ]

Since ATP can't answer my question on how suicide affects the OSAS belief maybe mjrhealth can?

Exceptions are not how we judge the rule....and these type of rabbit trails only cause us to lose focus on what God's word DOES say.

It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age and who have fallen away, to be brought back to repentance. To their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.

The choice here is to believe God accordingly, or not and blindly walk into the future thinking God has them, when they don't have God.

 

[FHII]

ATP wrote:

"Running the race and enduring has to do with winning or losing rewards in heaven, and has nothing to do with our original salvation. Believers are rewarded, not judged."

1 Cor 9 is good, but I was thinking of Hebrews 12:1-2. I also mentioned Mark 13:13. We must endure for salvation, otherwise 1John 2:19 is talking about us.

"

 

[FHII]

Tom55 wrote

"So if "the end" for an OSAS person is committing suicide, will they go to heaven? If they make it to heaven what will God say to them?"

I don't know if they'll be in heaven or not. That's between God and... well, its all up to God! It doesn't show much faith on the person's part in light of Jesus saying he won't put more on him than he can bear. But is it forgivable? Don't know.

As for what God would say to him... probably nothing. Hebrews 10 says that "there sins and iniquities will I remember no more". And that is a promise on earth, so I don't think God's going to bring it up in heaven either.

 

[ATP]

ATP wrote:

"Running the race and enduring has to do with winning or losing rewards in heaven, and has nothing to do with our original salvation. Believers are rewarded, not judged."

1 Cor 9 is good, but I was thinking of Hebrews 12:1-2. I also mentioned Mark 13:13. We must endure for salvation, otherwise 1John 2:19 is talking about us.

"

1 John 2:19 is referring to those who do not have the root of salvation Rom 11:18 NIV, Matt 13:21 NIV.

I believe in the perseverance of the saints and that God will lose none of the elect...John 6:35-40 NIV, John 10:9 NIV, John 17:26 NIV, Rom 7:21-25 NIV, 1 Cor 1:8-9 NIV, 1 Cor 3:13-15 NIV, 1 Cor 5:1-5 NIV, 2 Cor 1:9-10 NIV / 2 Cor 3:12 NIV, Col 1:3-5 NIV, 2 Tim 2:13 NIV, 2 Tim 4:18 NIV, Heb 6:16-19 NIV, Heb 7:23-25 NIV, Heb 12:22-24 NIV, Heb 13:5 NIV, 1 Pet 1:23 NIV, 2 John 1:2 NIV, Jude 1:1 NIV, Jude 1:24-25 NIV.

We must endure to receive crowns in heaven. Enduring has nothing to do with original salvation. The Bible is clear that once we believe we have eternal life...John 3:14-16 NIV, John 5:24 NIV, John 6:40 NIV, John 6:47 NIV, John 6:54 NIV, John 10:25-30 NIV, Acts 13:46-48 NIV, Rom 6:22-23 NIV, Eph 1:13-14 NIV, 1 Tim 1:15-16 NIV, Tit 1:1-3 NIV, Heb 9:12 NIV, 1 John 5:9-14 NIV.

1 Cor 9:24-27 NIV Do you not know that in a race all the runners run, but only one gets the prize? Run in such a way as to get the prize. 25Everyone who competes in the games goes into strict training. They do it to get a crown that will not last, but we do it to get a crown that will last forever. 26Therefore I do not run like someone running aimlessly; I do not fight like a boxer beating the air. 27No, I strike a blow to my body and make it my slave so that after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified for the prize.

 

[FHII]

ATP,

I agree that those in 1 john 2 didn't have root. Its proven because they didn't endure. The verse clearly says that.

I suppose that referring to mark 13:13 isn't convincing you. I'll quote it:

"And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake, but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved".

This verse isn't talking about prizes, awards, rewards or crowns we get in heaven; it's stated what must be done to get into heaven: endure.

Furthermore, I also spoke of Hebrews 12. Verse 2 says Jesus endured the cross. Does that have anything to do with our salvation?

We don't have to endure the cross (we died with him on the cross, and must pick up our cross daily - which is enduring).

 

[ATP]

"And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake, but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved".

This is an incorrect interpretation. This is in regards to end times events.

Does Matt. 24:13 conflict with free grace salvation and the believer’s security?

“But the one who endures to the end, he shall be saved” (Matt 24:13).

The word “saved” must always be understand in its context. Saved from what and by what means? “Saved” is the Greek sozo which may refer to any kind of deliverance and should often be simply translated “delivered.” It can refer to physical deliverance or to some kind of spiritual deliverance, but the context is the determining factor. In point of fact, this passage is speaking about physical deliverance or the survival of those who last through the judgments of the tribulation. Note the comments below from the Bible Knowledge Commentary.

24:9-14 (Mark 13:9-13; Luke 21:12-19). Jesus began His words (Matt. 24:9) with a time word, Then. At the middle point of the seven-year period preceding Christ’s second coming, great distress will begin to be experienced by Israel. The Antichrist, who will have risen to power in the world and will have made a protective treaty with Israel, will break his agreement at that time (Dan. 9:27). He will bring great persecution on Israel (Dan. 7:25) and even establish his own center of worship in the temple in Jerusalem (2 Thes. 2:3-4). This will result in the death of many Jews (Matt. 24:9) and many people departing from the faith. Believing Jews will be betrayed by nonbelievers (v. 10), and many will be deceived by rising false prophets (cf. v. 5; Rev. 13:11-15). Wickedness will increase, causing the love of most people (for the Lord) to grow cold.

Those who are believers and who survive until the end of that period of time will be saved, that is, delivered (Matt. 24:13). This does not refer to a personal self-effort at endurance that results in one’s eternal salvation, but to physical deliverance of those who trust in the Savior during the Tribulation. The endurance, then, is physical survival. While many will be martyred, a few will make to the end. Those who endure through the awful events of the Tribulation will be alive or delivered by Messiah when he returns to earth. This is not a reference to eternal salvation from sin, but rather the deliverance of survivors at the end of the Tribulation as stated in Romans 11:26 where the Deliver will save the nation Israel from its persecutors. Many will not endure to the end in that they will be martyred for their faith as described in Revelation 7:9-17.

https://bible.org/question/does-matt-2413-conflict-free-grace-salvation-and-believer%E2%80%99s-security

 

[KingJ]

Exceptions are not how we judge the rule....and these type of rabbit trails only cause us to lose focus on what God's word DOES say.

It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age and who have fallen away, to be brought back to repentance. To their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.

The choice here is to believe God accordingly, or not and blindly walk into the future thinking God has them, when they don't have God.

Its not a rabbit trail. When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth.

 

[KingJ]

If an OSAS believer decides to take their life so they can go to heaven, what would God say to them once they got there?
I guess only those who have done that will know the answer.

So the answer to what happens to a persons soul after suicide is not in the bible? We don't know what God teaches about suicide?


Not quiet the same thing, in heaven you dont have sin and the flesh to deal with, or hurt or pain or suffering or, well you hopefuly get the gist of it all.
I agree. On earth we have sin to deal with. If I am OSAS it doesn't matter if I sin on earth, does it? Even if I do sin I am still going to heaven because I am saved, right? Maybe I am misunderstanding the OSAS doctrine?

I am truly trying to understand the OSAS doctrine.

That is a good question. I believe the answer is simply that an OSAS person would not be able to take their lives. Just as they would not be able to continue in a mortal sin unrepentant.

I have a counter question for you. The thief next to Jesus on the cross. A firm decision to follow Jesus + a few hours of suffering / time tested before eternal bliss. We all make a firm decision to accept Jesus...but yet God decides to keep us on earth to serve Him...at the additional cost / risk of us losing our salvation...? We do more then the thief on the cross and still run the risk of losing our salvation? Doesn't sound fair now does it. If anything we should receive extra gauranteed assurance of salvation.

This is why I believe in OSAS from God's perspective. God knows who are His. We don't. We need to judge ourselves. We can say a person committing suicide was highly unlikely truly saved.

 

[StanJ]

Its not a rabbit trail. When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth.

The Bible is NOT accountable to Arthur Conan Doyle's line for a fictional character KJ. It would be better if you actually addressed what Luke is teaching in Heb 6:4-6, than bring in irrelevant quotes.

 

[KingJ]

The Bible is NOT accountable to Arthur Conan Doyle's line for a fictional character KJ. It would be better if you actually addressed what Luke is teaching in Heb 6:4-6, than bring in irrelevant quotes.

If someone fails at impeccable logic, how can they be expected to give sound explanations on scripture? We first need to use those brains God gave us and then move on to understanding scripture. Tom55 point on suicide is doing that.

IE prove you have a working brain and then lets discuss scripture. Some Christians are mad.

 

[StanJ]

If someone fails at impeccable logic, how can they be expected to give sound explanations on scripture? We first need to use those brains God gave us and then move on to understanding scripture. Tom55 point on suicide is doing that.

IE prove you have a working brain and then lets discuss scripture. Some Christians are mad.

With that kind of condescending and derisive response, I doubt very much you would accept anything I have to say on the matter so I see no reason to pursue and exercise in futility.

 

[heretoeternity]

Who can be saved? Rev 12...those who have the testimony of Jesus, and keep the Commandments of God"