So, you’ve rejected Jesus. Why?

[Riven]

To get back to the Garden of Eden. God is running a rescue, recovery and restoration operation. When you have some time and interest, read Genesis chapters 1 and 2. Pause there and think about the condition of man before the trouble started. That is God’s intention for man from the beginning. His intention won’t be thwarted.

The condition of man in the garden was little different than that of a pet. They only knew themselves when they ate from the tree. Why is having knowledge such a threat to God?

And why is that?

Because everyone dies and never comes back. Even Jesus hasn't come back.

I read a story once that was written either by a prison guard or a prison warden. I’m not certain about that detail, it was so long ago. The one big thing that I remember from the story is that he said everyone buckles when it’s time for the death sentence to be carried out.

Perhaps. But if what you tell me is true, I'll just remain dead. Blissfully unaware of anything.

God isn’t a sadist. It isn’t in keeping with his character to endlessly torture the wicked.

I see you disagree quite heavily with Christian orthodoxy. They agree amongst each other that hell is real.

 

[Riven]

What are you going to do about your sins?

Jesus died on The Cross to forgive them.........

So, What will you do ? @Riven

Probably continue to debate the topic.

 

[Matthias]

The condition of man in the garden was little different than that of a pet. They only knew themselves when they ate from the tree.

It was ideal. They knew peace and they knew God.

Why is having knowledge such a threat to God?

Having knowledge isn’t a threat to God.

Because everyone dies and never comes back. Even Jesus hasn't come back.

Jesus bodily raised the dead and was himself bodily raised from the dead. He’s back from the dead and he will one day return to the earth.

Perhaps. But if what you tell me is true, I'll just remain dead. Blissfully unaware of anything.

Before you die the second death you will be bodily resurrected to face judgement. You’ll be aware of what you could have had but chose not to have. After being thrown into the lake of fire your life will be extinguished forever.

I see you disagree quite heavily with Christian orthodoxy. They agree amongst each other that hell is real.

Hell (Gk. gehenna) is real.

 

[Wick Stick]

He didn't fulfill the messianic prophecies, and his claim that he was God leads the millions into idolatry, because worshiping a human being is idol worship.

Interestingly, the apostle Paul agrees that Jesus is an idol:

[He] is the idol (Gr: εἰκὼν) of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature (Colossians 1:15, but I've taken a liberty with the translation)

As I understand it, mankind is prohibited from creating idols, from worshiping the work of our own hands, dumb stones, wood, metalwork etc.

But God is NOT prohibited from creating an idol of Himself, and has done precisely that, elevating a man to Lordship, rather than making a likeness of stone/wood/metal.

 

[Matthias]

I see you disagree quite heavily with Christian orthodoxy.

Is “Christian orthodoxy” something that causes you to reject Jesus?

 

[Riven]

It was ideal. They knew peace and they knew God.

It's just a story.

Having knowledge isn’t a threat to God.

Then why did he get so upset in the story? It's interesting that he couldn't just forgive them then.

Jesus bodily raised the dead and was himself bodily raised from the dead. He’s back from the dead and he will one day return to the earth.

People have been saying that for years. They live, they die, and it never happens. He even told his followers that he would return within their lifetimes. But he didn't.

Before you die the second death you will be bodily resurrected to face judgement. You’ll be aware of what you could have had but chose not to have. After being thrown into the lake of fire your life will be extinguished forever.

What an inconvenience. Wakes me up so that he can put me back to sleep.

Hell (Gk. gehenna) is real.

But not as a torture chamber?

 

[Matthias]

It's just a story.


Then why did he get so upset in the story? It's interesting that he couldn't just forgive them then.


People have been saying that for years. They live, they die, and it never happens. He even told his followers that he would return within their lifetimes. But he didn't.


What an inconvenience. Wakes me up so that he can put me back to sleep.


But not as a torture chamber?

“It’s just a story.” You aren’t seeking the truth; you’re seeking debate. I don’t debate.

***

2 Thessalonians 2:10

 

[Riven]

“It’s just a story.” You aren’t seeking the truth; you’re seeking debate. I don’t debate.

***

2 Thessalonians 2:10

Fair enough. But everything rests on that story being true.

 

[Wick Stick]

>> Having knowledge isn’t a threat to God. <<
Then why did [God] get so upset in the story [of Adam and Eve]? It's interesting that he couldn't just forgive them then.

Do you care for an academic answer?

The stories here are about the conflict between the two classes of society in the Bronze Age... On one hand, there are nomadic herdsman who follow the flocks and live in tents. On the other hand, farmers are establishing an agricultural base and building walled cities. In Genesis, God wants the people to be in the former camp - nomads and herdsmen. For instance, Cain sacrifices vegetables and is an evil murderer, while God prefers the offering of an animal from his brother Abel.

Here in this story, the knowledge that Adam receives from the tree (and his wife) is about farming. Since God doesn't want them to be farmers, He ejects them from the fertile land and makes them live someplace where farming isn't an option, just as soon as they learn about it.

 

[OreCove]

What are you going to do about your sins?

Jesus died on The Cross to forgive them.........

So, What will you do ? @Riven

there is no such things as forgiveness of sins through someone else's actions. While you're on the Earth, you have time for transformation - from being a flesh to become a spirit, through aligning yourself with the Holy Spirit in every moment, while aiming to reach Father. If you were never alive, what will live after death?

 

[Behold]

there is no such things as forgiveness of sins through someone else's actions.

Jesus dying on The Cross is how God offers forgiveness for our sin.

Jesus died for our sin.......

Why?

Because God so loves us that He sent His Son Jesus to The Cross to die for our sin, so that we can be forgiven.

 

[OreCove]

Jesus dying on The Cross is how God offers forgiveness for our sin.

Jesus died for our sin.......

Why?

Because God so loves us that He sent His Son Jesus to The Cross to die for our sin, so that we can be forgiven.

Why Christians ignore world of Jesus - not everyone belong to God's flock. Even among those who says - "Lord, Lord!", who casts out demons and heals by his name - there are unknown by God.

 

[Behold]

Why Christians ignore world of Jesus - not everyone belong to God's flock.

Its true that not everyone is a Christian.

So, to become one, God requires that we are forgiven all our sin.
And how does that happen?

Can you forgiven your own sin?
No you can't...

So, Jesus died on The Cross, for our sin.........so that it can ALL be forgiven, and it will be forgiven...... once you trust in Christ..,. = God will forgive you.
That is God's Promise.

Consider..

Lets say you have murdered someone... Reader.
You are on Death row, and in 2 mins they are coming to get you, and they are going to take you and hang you for your crime, until you are dead.
So, the door of your prison cell opens, and you begin the horrible walk to the Hangman's noose.
Halfway there.......someone steps out in front of you....... and says....>"I will die in their place today"'.....And so the Warden of the Prison says......>"ok... if you die for them....then they go FREE, because you have paid with YOUR LIFE....for their crime of murder".

And Jesus said to us all......I have died on The Cross for all of your sins....I died so that you dont have to be judged, and you can go Free.
I will take the judgement for your sin........I will DIE FOR YOU.......because i LOVE YOU and because God loves you.

And He did.......... Jesus has died on The Cross..... so that we can ALL be forgiven.

"All who call on the name of Jesus......believing....shall be forgiven"....."shall be saved".

 

[Riven]

Do you care for an academic answer?

The stories here are about the conflict between the two classes of society in the Bronze Age... On one hand, there are nomadic herdsman who follow the flocks and live in tents. On the other hand, farmers are establishing an agricultural base and building walled cities. In Genesis, God wants the people to be in the former camp - nomads and herdsmen. For instance, Cain sacrifices vegetables and is an evil murderer, while God prefers the offering of an animal from his brother Abel.

Here in this story, the knowledge that Adam receives from the tree (and his wife) is about farming. Since God doesn't want them to be farmers, He ejects them from the fertile land and makes them live someplace where farming isn't an option, just as soon as they learn about it.

Where did he send them? The Arctic?

 

[Wick Stick]

Where did he send them? The Arctic?

He sent them from the area just north of the Sea of Galilee to the area just south of the Dead Sea. A satellite map shows the contrast in plant life rather well:

 

[Riven]

He sent them from the area just north of the Sea of Galilee to the area just south of the Dead Sea. A satellite map shows the contrast in plant life rather well:
View attachment 64098

Interesting. How do you know this to be true?

 

[Wick Stick]

Interesting. How do you know this to be true?

"True" is a strange ask when we started with a mythological story. But it does seem to have some factual basis. The story comes from the Edomites - hence their eponymous ancestor is named Adam/Edom.

The southern area is easily verified. The Bible names the cities in that region, tells us they were living there at the time of writing, and we have an archaeological record that matches.

The northern area and the trek southwards is also in the Bible, but it's harder to see. There was no such thing as a written history in the Bronze Age, but they were concerned with recording alliances between tribes. In the Bronze Age, when a marriage is recorded, that's meant to record an alliance.

In Genesis, Edom is recorded as taking 4 wives. The first two are Hittites. The southernmost extent of the Hittite empire is almost the top of the map I posted.

The 3rd wife/alliance is a Hivite. The Hivites are recorded to have lived in the valley at the base of Mt Hermon, which is just about the center of the top circle on the map (that's why the circle is drawn there). But the Bible also records that an entire tribe of Hivites left their homeland and went with the Edomites into the wilderness.

The 4th was an Ishmaelite. The Ishmaelites were nomads who lived close to the southern circle. Further, the locations of the birth of Esau's grandchildren is given. The first ones are born "in the land of the Canaanites" (aka the north) while the later ones are born "in Mt Seir" (the south).

Gen 36:8 Thus dwelt Esau in mount Seir: Esau is Edom.

The Bible also contains the same story a couple more times. Perhaps you recall the story in which Edom sold/lost his birthright to his brother Jacob and had to leave the area? And later there's a story where the two grown brothers with their tribes meet each other going opposite directions.

Historically, what seems to have happened is the Edomites made alliances with the losers of a war for that desirable northern territory and had to vacate.

 

[Riven]

"True" is a strange ask when we started with a mythological story.

I assumed you thought it was true and not a mythological story. I was somewhat taken aback by the specific spot on the map where this event supposedly took place. Thanks for clarifying.

 

[Wick Stick]

I assumed you thought it was true and not a mythological story. I was somewhat taken aback by the specific spot on the map where this event supposedly took place. Thanks for clarifying.

The Edomites getting kicked out of southern Lebanon seems to be a real thing that happened. The story either mythologizes the event, or perhaps was just made up to explain "why are we living in one of the worst places on earth?"