Sola Fide

[Marymog]

Who was James speaking to? Who was his audience?

Dear Armadillo,
You can tell me but it won't matter.

Whether he was speaking to an atheist or a Jew or a recently convertred Jew to Christianity the message is the same: by works a man is justified, and not only by faith.

If a man who recently learned of Jesus didn't have time to do "the works" he would still be saved when he died. He would be saved by the grace of God. By grace, faith and works a person can be saved. NOT by faith alone.

Love Mary

 

[Marymog]

You need to go back and reread all the posts.

Armadillo,

Here is a cut and paste from what YOU provided: for by grace have ye been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, [it is] the gift of God.

Can you please show me where it says By faith alone you have been saved? The gift of God is GRACE. Faith is what you have to provide, not God. You provide the faith, He provides the grace. FAITH and GRACE not faith alone.

It CLEARLY says by grace ye have been saved. It does not say by faith ye have been saved. You have to have faith AND then by the grace of God you are saved...NOT faith alone. FAITH and GRACE?

Mary

 

[tabletalk]

Hi Tabletalk,

If you take out the word "alone" we would be on common ground. How about if we look at the fullness of scripture to get the full picture. Start with James 2:14-26 and that pretty much sums it all up. However, I am willing to go deeper into scripture to make my point.

Do you think God saw Abraham’s saving faith in Gen. 15:6? I believe He did. So why did God have to see if Abrahams faith was genuine by ‘staging’ the test he gave him later on in life in Genesis 22:12?

In Gen. 22:12 we know how Abraham passed God’s test of faith. How did he pass that test? By his faith alone or what he did (was about to DO)?

How did Abraham become greatly blessed in Gen. 22:16-17? By his faith alone or what he did?

The sign of the covenant was circumcision. What would have happened if Abraham had refused to cut off his foreskin? What if Abraham had refused to sacrifice his son? Would his obedience or disobedience have entered into the equation? Would God have said "You disobeyed me but it's OK....Your still a righteous man. Enter into heaven."

Is it the faith that is being justified by works.....or is it the man?

Mary

I'll quote 2 verses which show that one is declared righteous/justified by belief/faith. That is all it takes to be declared righteous. That's why the word "alone" is used by those pesky Protestants. Must one do works to continue in righteousness? You bet. If Abraham had died 10 minutes after being declared righteous, his belief saved him, even if he did not prove his faith. I don't have answers to your other questions.

“Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.”
" But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness,.."

 

[Armadillo]

FAITH and GRACE?

Grace is not a doctrine , Grace is a person and His name is Jesus. Please reread the thread with that in mind, it might help.

 

[Marymog]

I'll quote 2 verses which show that one is declared righteous/justified by belief/faith. That is all it takes to be declared righteous. That's why the word "alone" is used by those pesky Protestants. Must one do works to continue in righteousness? You bet. If Abraham had died 10 minutes after being declared righteous, his belief saved him, even if he did not prove his faith. I don't have answers to your other questions.

“Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.”
" But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness,.."

I think we are in agreement. Your "If Abraham had died 10 minutes after being declared righteous...." statement sealed the deal. For the AVERAGE person and 99.9% of the Christians on earth...FAITH ALONE does not save you. There must be works...like scripture says.

I appreciate your honesty.

Mary

 

[Marymog]

Grace is not a doctrine , Grace is a person and His name is Jesus. Please reread the thread with that in mind, it might help.

Hi Armadillo,

Grace is Jesus?

So God can't show grace? I can't show grace to you? Only Jesus can?

Curious Mary

 

[twinc]

Hi Armadillo,

So what am I to do with James 2:14-26 which says, in part: You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

Act like it was never said?

Mary

the true translation is and must be understood as thus viz by grace[of God/Jesus]are we saved through faith in Jesus - as regards James like Jews in general he still believed in by works and only accepted Jesus as the way in the very last moments of his life - twinc

 

[FHII]

I don't think I ever said that Isaac being offered up was being discussed in Romans 4. If I have please quote me

Nor do I recall me saying you did. Its just funny that twice I've talked about Romans 4 and the conversation switched to Isaac being offered up.

I am looking at ALL OF SCRIPTURE. The fullness of scripture.

Good. So lets talk about Eph 2, Romans 4 and Galatians. OR would you rather just talk about James 2 or Heb 11 (which says it was by faith)? What 1 or 2 verses would you like to discuss woth "the fullness of scripture"?

You don't really want to discuss Romans 4 or Galatians or Romans 3 or Eph 2, do you? Ok.... We can discuss Heb 11. But don't tell me about "fullness of scripture" if you don't acknowledge such verses.

You never answered: Just so we are on the same page you are saying that "According to the words of Paul, yes.....one can only receive grace by having faith".

Huh? How is "yes" not an answer?

 

[mjrhealth]

NOT by faith alone.

Here we go denying teh works of Christ.

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

So many want to foolishly stand before God and boast of there works as if teh works that Christ did was never enough.

Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

 

[FHII]

FAITH ALONE does not save you. There must be works...like scripture says.

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: [9] Not of works, lest any man should boast.

rom 4:6
Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,

 

[bbyrd009]

the def of "works" should prolly be made clear. Are good deeds works?

 

[pia]

Grace is not a doctrine , Grace is a person and His name is Jesus. Please reread the thread with that in mind, it might help.

Is it not one of the Spirits of God?? The Spirit of Grace? In the Bible it says about Jesus, that He was FULL of Grace and Truth ...If He was/is Grace, how can He be full of Himself???
If I understood the Bible, it says that there are 7 Spirits of God.....

 

[FHII]

Let's explore Hebrews 11. Why not?

17. By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son,

The verse says it was by faith he offered up Isaac. What for? As a burnt offering. He was to burn and kill Isaac. Did he suceed? Well, there is a surprise answer to that question. But the answer is they both walked off the mountain. So Abraham did nothing other than show up and be willing. By the way... The verse says he received "promises". Isaac certainly was one. What was the other?

But let's look at the account first hand:

Genesis 17:19-21 KJV
And God said, Sarah thy wife shall bear thee a son indeed; and thou shalt call his name Isaac: and I will establish my covenant with him for an everlasting covenant, and with his seed after him.

God said he was going to establish a covenant with Isaac's seed. That is Jacob, of course.

Gen 22:5 And Abraham said unto his young men, Abide ye here with the ass; and I and the lad will go yonder and worship, and come again to you.

Abraham said to his servants that they (Abraham and Isaac were coming back). Does that not seem strange? It shouldn't, because Abraham had faith in that God was going to establish a covenant with Isaac's seed.

THAT is some strong faith! God first said Isaac's seed would have the Covenant and Abraham still believed it even as he was going to sacrifice Isaac... So much that he said, we're coming back!

Back to Hebrews 11:

[18] Of whom it was said, That in Isaac shall thy seed be called: [19] Accounting that God was able to raise him up, even from the dead; from whence also he received him in a figure.

This is not a matter of Abraham believing he was going to lose his son whom he just loved so much (Im sure he did). It was a matter of the covenant being fulfilled.

Verse 19 suggests that Abraham believed he was going to go through with it and then God was going to bring him back.

Either way.... The faith was in the promised covenant. Yes God wanted to see if he would go through with it... I understand that. But the faith of Abraham was in that somehow they were both returning. It had nothing to do with any "works" were being done. Abraham wasn't worried about it.

Isaac, on the other hand, he might have been a little concerned at the moment....

 

[FHII]

And no.... I don't know why half my text is struck out... Nor how to change it. Sorry... Guess you folks will have to read between the lines.

 

[Helen]

And no.... I don't know why half my text is struck out... Nor how to change it. Sorry... Guess you folks will have to read between the lines.

Yes...I did just that!
I even wondered how you did it...once when I was posting/quoting someone I looked to see if there was a font thing that did this, striking out.....but couldn't find one...I had hoped you'd know how you did it!

 

[mjrhealth]

Yes God wanted to see if he would go through with it.

Actually that is a rather odd statement, cause God already knew He would. God has seeing the end from the beginning, knows all we will do before we do it, all we will say, before we say it, and all we think before we think it.

Isa 65:24 And it shall come to pass, that before they call, I will answer; and while they are yet speaking, I will hear.

 

[FHII]

Actually that is a rather odd statement, cause God already knew He would.

Yea, i agree. Its strange to us that God puts men and women through such trials. But that's what he wants done....

 

[tabletalk]

Actually that is a rather odd statement, cause God already knew He would. God has seeing the end from the beginning, knows all we will do before we do it, all we will say, before we say it, and all we think before we think it.

Isa 65:24 And it shall come to pass, that before they call, I will answer; and while they are yet speaking, I will hear.

Well said!

 

[mjrhealth]

Yea, i agree. Its strange to us that God puts men and women through such trials. But that's what he wants done....

Its for our own good , so that He can show He is faithful and so for us that we can see our own hearts,

 

[Marymog]

the true translation is and must be understood as thus viz by grace[of God/Jesus]are we saved through faith in Jesus - as regards James like Jews in general he still believed in by works and only accepted Jesus as the way in the very last moments of his life - twinc

I agree, we are saved through faith in Jesus.

Mary