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Solving the mistery of the trinity.

Discussion in 'Christian Debate Forum' started by denny123, Feb 17, 2011.

  1. denny123

    denny123 New Member

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    I just recently read a book Called, "Jesus: son of God, clone of God. " by Harry Walther and he suggested that Jesus was really a clone of God the Father. It really hit home with me. The first verse that poped into my mind was when Jesus said if you've sceen me you've sceen the Father. If I was a clone of my dad that is exactly what I would say. And when Jesus said the father in heaven is greater than I am, I beleive he ment the father was greater simply because the father always exsisted yet Jesus was created. What do you all think?
     
  2. Disciple

    Disciple Soldiers United 4 Christ

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    Good thoughts I like the whole clone idea.. I try not to worry about all that stuff, alot of people debate or state that 'Jesus is God' and other things but the way I see it he is Gods Son, my Savior.
     
  3. Vengle53

    Vengle53 New Member

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    What honorable son of a father does not seek to pattern himself after the father he admires? To clone himself after his father's image, so to speak.

    It is no mystery, except perhaps to this world that knows no honor. A good son obediently submits to the will of his deserving father.

    And what father who takes great delight in a son who so honors him does not give of all he has in honor of that son?

    It is no mystery, except perhaps to this world where men seek mostly to glorify and honor themselves.

    When properly understood the realationship between the Father and the Son is one we can immitate and so perfect our image of Him and of them.

    We must be careful not to rob the beauty of the Son's loyalty to his Father away from him by our views.
     
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  4. Vengle53

    Vengle53 New Member

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    We sinful men tend to see everything with a view to how our physical eyes see things.

    Not one word of what Jesus spoke is about trying to describe a physical-like comparison between he and his Father.

    Of Jesus' Father the scripture says, 2 Chronicles 2:6 "But who is able to build him an house, seeing the heaven and heaven of heavens cannot contain him? who am I then, that I should build him an house, save only to burn sacrifice before him?"

    Forget trying to understand God in terms of what He looks like and begin seeing Him in terms of what His qualities are. For that is how it is we see the Father in the Son.

    A good son emulates his father. Jesus has done that flawlessly.
     
  5. TexUs

    TexUs New Member

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    If we're made in his image we can deduce the Father has a body similar to both ours and Christ's.
    He walked with Adam and Eve. Moses saw his back. Etc.

    The clone idea might have merit. The same embodiment but different roles.
    The HS being an exception I guess.
     
  6. Vengle53

    Vengle53 New Member

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    Certainly we can deduce that he has the power to take on any body he so chooses at any time he so chooses. But is that body him or is he just using that body?

    Will you just ignore 2 Chronicles 2:6 ? If a large material building cannot contain him do you really suppose a human body can?

    You do not know what God looks like in a physical way or is like in a physical way and you may never know. That is why John could truthfully say, John 1:18 "No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him."

    1 John 4:12 "No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us."

    Ponder how John says we see God: 3 John 1:11 "Beloved, follow not that which is evil, but that which is good. He that doeth good is of God: but he that doeth evil hath not seen God."

    We can see that picture at work in 1 John 4:20 also as at 1 John 4:12. It is not about a physical eye view as to who God is. It never was and never will be.

    Those that get locked on trying to see God in that fleshly physical sort of a way hinder their own running and they hinder the running of those that believe them.

    You might desire to press forward to see in your mind's eye the really important view of God and His Son, but that is your choice to make.

    When those alive in Jesus day saw the physicasl man Jesus, they saw the Son of Man.

    When they looked not at the flesh with fleshly eyes but at his spirit with spiritual eyes, they then saw the Son of God.

    We are yet able to see Jesus that way today if we let ourselves be taught to see him.

    And it is only when we can see Jesus that way that we can say we know his Father shined through him.
     
  7. Duckybill

    Duckybill New Member

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    God created God? Nah.
     
  8. TexUs

    TexUs New Member

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    Oh I didn't even read that far.

    I still think the clone theory/imagery has merit but yes, I'd disagree Jesus being a creation.
     
  9. Vengle53

    Vengle53 New Member

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    A clone would have all of the personal features and powers of that which it was cloned of, however totally independent of that of which it was a clone. And that is simply not how Jesus describes himself.

    God needs nothing. Jesus needs God.

    God chooses to love Jesus because Jesus chooses to love God, even as we are told that if we love God He will love us.

    God honors Jesus with glory and power because Jesus so completely honors God.

    It is not difficult to understand. Most merely wrestle with seeing it because they have had tare roots mingled into the word they have received.

    I mean, how silly is it that one would argue that John 5:18 shows Jesus presented himself as equal to God and therefore must be God.

    What father of you wants his child to be less than you?

    Silly, silly, silly.
     
  10. Anastacia

    Anastacia New Member

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    Do you or don't you believe that Jesus is God in the flesh?
     
  11. Anastacia

    Anastacia New Member

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    To the OP, I think that using the human understanding of "clone" could be a helpful tool in trying to explain how God and Jesus are the same. I have used that example to an Atheist before, but resist using that analogy though, because the word isn't in the Bible.

    Some Bible scriptures to study:


    John 1: 1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2He was with God in the beginning.

    John 1:3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

    Hebrews 1:3 The Son is the radiance of God's glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven.


    Paul says "For which of the angels did God EVER say.......," the obvious answer is--- to no angel did God ever say...., because Jesus was never an angel. (For those who say Jesus was an angel.)

    Hebrews 1:5

    5For to which of the angels did God ever say,
    "You are my Son;
    today I have become your Father"? Or again,
    "I will be his Father,
    and he will be my Son"?


    In Hebrews 1:8 and 9, doesn't God call Jesus "God"?

    Hebrews 1:8But about the Son he says,
    "Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever,
    and righteousness will be the scepter of your kingdom.
    9You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness;
    therefore God, your God, has set you above your companions
    by anointing you with the oil of joy."


    God is invisible. Jesus is God made visible.

    Colossians 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.

    Colossians 1:16-17 16For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him. 17He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.


    Before Jesus came to earth in the flesh, didn't he exist in heaven with God, with the glorified body he returned to God with, after he ascended to heaven? See these scriptures:


    John 17:5 And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.

    John 17:24 "Father, I want those you have given me to be with me where I am, and to see my glory, the glory you have given me because you loved me before the creation of the world.
     
  12. Vengle53

    Vengle53 New Member

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    I absolutely know he was not.

    In the flesh Jesus had to be the exact equal of man for him to win man out from under the penalty for sin.

    The concept that Jesus was God in the flesh makes a joke out of what Jesus accomplished for us. It is based in a severe lack of deeper insight into the scriptures.

    Satan loves that teaching.
     
  13. Vengle53

    Vengle53 New Member

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    John 1: 1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2He was with God in the beginning. Exactly, as it is Jesus that Proverbs chapter eight describes. John 12:50 And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak.


    (Not by him but John 1:3 Through him (or, in him) all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. Proverbs 8:30 "Then I was by him, as a master workman; And I was daily his delight, Rejoicing always before him," (ASV) Proverbs 8:30 "Then I was by his side, as a master workman: and I was his delight from day to day, playing before him at all times;" (BBE) Proverbs 8:30 "I was with him forming all things: and was delighted every day, playing before him at all times;" (Douay - Rheims) Proverbs 8:30 "Then I was the craftsman by his side. I was a delight day by day, Always rejoicing before him," (WEB) Proverbs 8:30 "Then I am near Him, a workman, And I am a delight -- day by day. Rejoicing before Him at all times," (YLT)


    Hebrews 1:3 ""The Son is the radiance of God's glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven." 100% true, and the powerful word that he sustained things with was his Fathre's word just as he exhibited to us when he came in the flesh, so completely living by God's Word that he was to us "The Word of God."


    Paul says "For which of the angels did God EVER say.......,Hebrews 1:5" the obvious answer is--- to no angel did God ever say...., because Jesus was never an angel. (For those who say Jesus was an angel.) The dumb part of this logic is that it gives no reasoning why Paul should even consider in the first place whether it was ever an angel that was spoken to that way. It leaves Paul pulling that thought out of nothing. Silly, silly, silly. And I have not even yet told you yet how it is correctly understood. You don't even realize that this whole picture here painted is based on the power and authority behindf the human line of Judean Kings. So you stretch it to fit your silly desire for a Trinity.


    In Hebrews 1:8 and 9, doesn't God call Jesus "God"? The answeris no, he does not. Your view has God talking to himself in a silly fashion. But worse it hides an important truth from those who are side-tracked buying into your belief with you.

    Ridding out the evil tampering that was done to the verse by tares: Hebrews 1:8 But about the Son he says,
    "God is your throne for ever and ever,
    and (God's)righteousness will be the scepter of your kingdom.
    9You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness;
    therefore God, your God, has set you above your companions
    by anointing you with the oil of joy."
    Above what companions? Above the earthly line of kings that sat on the same thrown as David. That is why God never spoke what he did to angels. He spoke it to that line of human kings and exalted Jesus above all of them.

    Look at this silly logic. God is invisible. Jesus is God made visible. By your own description Jesus would only have been God made visible while in the flesh. You totally discount the scriptures you here go on to cite are speaking after he was no longer in the flesh.

    Colossians 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.

    Colossians 1:16-17 16For by (Greek "en", literally in) him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him. 17He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. In other words God his Father vested all things "in" him and what things are about to be brought back to is what they were always anyway. Ephesians 1:10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:



    Again your wisdom leaves you not seeing. No one that I know of even disputes this. Before Jesus came to earth in the flesh, didn't he exist in heaven with God, with the glorified body he returned to God with, after he ascended to heaven? See these scriptures:


    John 17:5 And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.

    John 17:24 "Father, I want those you have given me to be with me where I am, and to see my glory, the glory you have given me because you loved me before the creation of the world.

    Silly, silly, silly.
     
  14. Anastacia

    Anastacia New Member

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    Again, you should be careful how you judge....it could be the very thing you are guilty of. Satan might love your teaching.


    Jesus was a man, but the scriptures tell us he was more than just a man.


    I tried, but I can't make out the mess you made out of what I posted. From what I can make out, it is obvious you don't understand the scriptures, nor what I said. And I admit to not knowing what in the world you are talking about, nor what and why you believe what you do.
     
  15. Vengle53

    Vengle53 New Member

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    I am very ill with the flu right now so I guess i am being a bit lazy. But i am too miserable to sleep.

    To understand Hebrews 1:5 compare it to the following:

    Hebrews 2:5 ¶For unto the angels hath he not put in subjection the world to come, whereof we speak.
    6 But one in a certain place testified, saying, What is man, that thou art mindful of him? or the son of man, that thou visitest him?
    7 Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands:
    8 Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him.
    9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.
    10 ¶For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.

    The subject matter of Hebrews chapter one moves quickly to discussing the promise that the throne of David would be established forever and is speaking about how this is fulfilled in Christ Jesus. Jesus is that twig out of the stump of Jesse as was pictured in King David. The book of Acts speaks on this also.

    You cannot in all integrity just say that Jesus was never an angel based upon what Hebrews 1: 5 says. We must look for what Paul was saying, and Hebrews 2: 5-10 basically epitomizes all that Paul said in chapter one up to that point.

    Until a person grasps that chapter one's discussion is about Jesus' fulfilling God's promise to David that his throne and his kingdom would be established forever, they most often do butcher the explanation of what is said.

    The older 'Interpreter's Bible' has a fair discussion of it. If I remember right it also discusses a bit about the issue of how Psalms 45:7 and Hebrews 1:8 ought to be translated. The O before God was very clearly not a part of the original text. And such small seemingly innocent additions have a huge impact on the exegesis. That is because they convey the tamperer's thought which then disallows other possible ways of understanding the verses.

    But once you see clearly that it is the throne of David which is among men that is being discussed then everything else makes sense. And then learning a little bit about the way the power and authority behind the throne that those Judean kings (Jesus' companions) sat on, the correct and gramatically allowable translation of Psalms 45:7 and hebrews 1:8 becomes quite clear.

    Thak God for blinding those not really disposed to his righteousness, for if they did have that deeper understanding they may have been able to succeed in hiding the truth from us at such places. But as it is, they are easy to see through once one gains a more detailed knowledge. The only ones that will remain blind are those who do not really care to know. And they will always only ever have as a whole a false apperance of knowledge.
     
  16. Anastacia

    Anastacia New Member

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    I hope you get over the flu soon.

    From what you say in this post, am I right in that you believe Jesus was an angel before he came to earth?

    I still am not sure what you think you are proving from the scriptures.

    Maybe you can go slower? Start maybe with one point at a time?

    Here's a question for you to think about and answer; I know the answer,but would like to hear how you explain, since you do not believe Jesus is God: Is the Holy Spirit the Spirit of God, or of Jesus? I say of God or Jesus, because you say they are not the same. So, explain your beliefs.
     
  17. Vengle53

    Vengle53 New Member

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    Thank you. I hope I get over this flu too! LOL. But if I never had to endure suffering what would I ever learn. I am too stubborn to learn anything the easy way.

    I do not claim to know one way or the other if Jesus was an angel. I do believe he was always higher than the angels and that lends greatness to the humility that he showed by willing submitting to become lower than the angels.

    Psalms 8:5 For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honour.

    Hebrews 2:7 Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands:

    Hebrews 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

    To say that Jesus was ever only an angel rubs my gut as disrespectful.

    But then being reasonable, I must admit that being chief over the angels (which is all archangel means) does not have to mean that he is himself an angel.

    Matthew 16:27 "For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works."


    ______________________________

    The Holy Spirit is of God and God can put it into whomever's hands he wishes to allow control of it.

    At Revelation 1:14 we see that Jesus' "eyes were as a flame of fire". That is the Holy Spirit which fills him. That is his Father's empowering of him.

    I tend to be annoyed that people seem to go to extremes in everything. I accept that the Holy Spirit communicates to me as though it is a person. But I see that it does things for me beyond what a person could do. I see no need to question whether it is or is not a person but just to be grateful that it is. And it has unquestionably proved to me that it is real. I have become totally dependent on it and joyfully so.

    Why should men debate things that the scriptures themselves do not debate? Cannot men see that to do this only opens up a greater possibility for men's wisdom to begin mixing in with God's pure unadulterated Word?

    But, yes, I have in the past deeply researched the subject. In accord with my stubbornness it took me a while to figure out that while I was spending my time trying to know things that the scriptures did not see fit to specifically detail, I was holding myself up from progressing on to learn the truly important things. I was not at that time really listening to the Spirit and allowing it to direct me.

    I have some close relatives who became Jehovah's Witnesses. They teach that they in their door to door work are the locusts of the book of Joel. I do not quite understand how they can say that when it seems this speaks of their end: Joel 2:20 "But I will remove far off from you the northern army, and will drive him into a land barren and desolate, with his face toward the east sea, and his hinder part toward the utmost sea, and his stink shall come up, and his ill savour shall come up, because he hath done great things." But I could be wrong. I am currently pondering that. They tend not to like to talk to me, though, so it is a bit difficult to hear them out on the subject.

    My point is that I can see where the chewing of the locusts which get into everything about the church (the church being pictured by the children of Zion there) is likely all of this unworthy contest that is generated by those that push to discuss beyond what the scriptures focus upon. But it seems these locusts have spread the tendency to do this as spreading a disease. And I am not saying it is only Jehovah's Witnesses that do that. I believe I see many who do it which has caused the physical appearance of the church to become sickly. This is the growth of the seed of the tares which has sought roots together with the good seed in the futile soil of the hearts of the visible sons of the kingdom.
     
  18. Anastacia

    Anastacia New Member

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  19. Anastacia

    Anastacia New Member

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    More scriptures on God and Jesus have the same Spirit.

    Romans 8:9 You, however, are controlled not by the sinful nature but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ.

    Romans 8:14 because those who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God.

    1 Corinthians 2:10 but God has revealed it to us by his Spirit. The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God.

    1 Corinthians 2:11 For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the man’s spirit within him? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God.

    1 Corinthians 2:12 We have not received the spirit of the world but the Spirit who is from God, that we may understand what God has freely given us.

    1 Corinthians 2:14 The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned.

    1 Corinthians 6:11 And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

    ! Corinthians 6:19 Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own;

    1 Corinthians 7:40 In my judgment, she is happier if she stays as she is—and I think that I too have the Spirit of God.

    Acts 16:7 When they came to the border of Mysia, they tried to enter Bithynia, but the Spirit of Jesus would not allow them to.


    Ephesians 3:16 so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith. And I pray that you, being rooted and established in love,


    These aren't all the scriptures speaking of the Spirit of God, but wanted to post more for whomever is interested.
     
  20. Anastacia

    Anastacia New Member

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    Read this beautiful and powerful scripture:


    John 14:23 Jesus replied, "If anyone loves me, he will obey my teaching. My Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him.

    The Father and Jesus will come and make their home with those who obey his teaching....both the Father and the Son. Yet, we have One Spirit living inside us from God and Jesus. The Father and the Son are One.
     
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