Something my pastor said during service

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laid renard

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I was in service a few days ago, when the pastor said that he does not ever partake of even one alcoholic drink. I sometimes partake, but not to a drunken state.

He then went on to say that those who do drink and are believers are abusing God's grace and are in danger of hell fire.

I felt very confused for I immediately thought, not in a mean manner, for I am not like that, but like I said, just in a confused way, that this did not make sense to me, for the pastor is extremely over weight. Would not gluttony be considered abuse of our bodies as well and also be considered abusing God/s grace if we follow this stream of thought ?

Like I said, this last sermon left me very confused.
 

ChristianJuggarnaut

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Let's assume for a moment that both you and your pastor are correct.

What is your point?

Will you stand before God and be judged for your actions based upon the sins of your pastor? Will you be justified by the sins of your pastor?

Do you see my point?
 

laid renard

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ChristianJuggarnaut said:
Let's assume for a moment that both you and your pastor are correct.

What is your point?

Will you stand before God and be judged for your actions based upon the sins of your pastor? Will you be justified by the sins of your pastor?

Do you see my point?
I would hate to think that we were both correct. That would mean I would have to earn my salvation.

My point is my confusion. Was the pastor being a hypocrite by pointing out others sins while over looking his? I could be missing something for I do not know him personally.

No, I won't be judged for my actions based on the sins of my pastor. I am white as snow thanks to Jesus.

Hope I answered your questions adequately.
 

ChristianJuggarnaut

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Ok, so then, let's assume you are both incorrect.

Again, what is the point?

Now, it is possible that the teachings of this pastor are inconsistent with your hyper grace theology. If this is indeed the case, I cannot imagine that you will be happy attending church there forever.
 

River Jordan

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laid renard said:
I was in service a few days ago, when the pastor said that he does not ever partake of even one alcoholic drink. I sometimes partake, but not to a drunken state.

He then went on to say that those who do drink and are believers are abusing God's grace and are in danger of hell fire.
If he's saying that, I assume he offered scriptural support? Surely something that is so important to salvation would be clearly stated, right?

I felt very confused for I immediately thought, not in a mean manner, for I am not like that, but like I said, just in a confused way, that this did not make sense to me, for the pastor is extremely over weight. Would not gluttony be considered abuse of our bodies as well and also be considered abusing God/s grace if we follow this stream of thought ?
Yeah, don't get me started on the hypocrisy of so many self-righteous Christians who actively embrace gluttony and greed. ;)

Like I said, this last sermon left me very confused.
I'd suggest asking him why he believes that so strongly.
 

aspen

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yep, some of the fatest, greediest Christians love to point out all the sins in their neighbor which they are not tempted by.....

There is a good reason Jesus tells us not to Judge others - we suck at it.
 
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FHII

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It's tough for me to comment on this because I didn't hear the sermon, nor do I know the circumstances on why he said it.

It seems to me that without grace, we are not only in danger of hell-fire.... It's gonna come! Grace on the other hand, though faith is the way out. So can we abuse grace in any way, including alcohol comsumption? Well, 1 Peter 2:16 says we aren't to use our liberty for a cloak of maliciousness. Paul also said several times in slightly different ways that all things were lawful, but not expedient and that he would not be brought under the power of any.

On the other hand, Romans 5:20 says that were sin abounded, grace did much more abound. That is a very powerful verse. Specifically speaking of alcohol, Paul wasn't against it, but he wasn't fond of drunkeness either (I'll give the verses I'm thinking of if anyone asks)...

So what's the answer? My opinion based on the scripture is that no, simply drinking alcohol is not abusing grace any more than engagining in any other sin is. On the other hand, if you let it affect your spiritual life and the things you must do to enhance the spiritual life, absolutely it can endanger you. If you aren't attending Church or doing so drunk, if you spend all your money on booze and aren't a giver to God, you aren't learning of him and if you abuse the brethren... Well, that's affecting your spiritual well being. It's not about "how much you are drinking it" either.... It's more of what results from when you do it regardless of the amount. Also, yes.... It's the same with any other behavior.

In short: if you love it more than Jesus, you are indeed in trouble!

As for the overweight pastor... Sure, everyone hates when people are being hypocritical. But I don't think its something that I would dwell on. Unfortunate, yes. But it doesn't seem right to get into a finger-pointing fight.
 

williemac

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laid renard said:
I was in service a few days ago, when the pastor said that he does not ever partake of even one alcoholic drink. I sometimes partake, but not to a drunken state.

He then went on to say that those who do drink and are believers are abusing God's grace and are in danger of hell fire.

I felt very confused for I immediately thought, not in a mean manner, for I am not like that, but like I said, just in a confused way, that this did not make sense to me, for the pastor is extremely over weight. Would not gluttony be considered abuse of our bodies as well and also be considered abusing God/s grace if we follow this stream of thought ?

Like I said, this last sermon left me very confused.
Your pastor is not accurately representing the mercy and grace of our Lord. He is in the Phariseutical frame of mind (I made up a word ;)).. straining out a gnat and swallowing a camel. I advise you to consider changing your place of attendance. By the way, while abusing God's grace is not advisable, as it will bring about chastening, it is the setting aside of His grace that is considered apostasy. The Galatians fell from grace by their attempt to be justified by the law after having been given life and the Holy Spirit. Do you see the similarity with your pastor's mindset? Pronouncing hell fire on a believer who is in apparent sin is putting him back under law, for by the law is the knowledge of sin. And BTW, having a drink or two is not sin. People are addicted to many things, including food. We are far more dependent upon grace and mercy than many so called well behaving believers can even imagine. As Paul said in 2Cor.4:7..."We have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellence of the power may be of God and not of us" Who will boast before God?
 

aspen

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grace is not a commodity or a substance - you cannot meter it out or horde it. it is a state of being.
 

Arnie Manitoba

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I know a lot of very nice people who dont drink , smoke , or swear , and go to church every Sunday

But if I ever strike up a conversation about Christ or salvation all I get are blank stares from them.

They dont even know what salvation is and they dont even realize it
 
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Matthew 23:1 Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples, 2 Saying The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat: 3 All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.

As a person who has (previously) partaken in 'much wine' I would like to say just a few words of my own first and then share some of 'the word'.

I understand you are talking about "sometimes partake(ing), but not to a drunken state." and that there are several cultures where a little wine with dinner is perfectly normal even at a young age. Can I, (I will), draw from your statement here that you have no issue with the Bibles poor view of being in a "drunken state"? That being said I would also like to state that my current choice to, like the pastor, never (again) partake of even one alcoholic drink was made before I gave my life to Jesus. I found plenty of good reasons to give it up for good before then. As such, I would like to think that the biblical observations i am presenting will not be taken as being skewed, brainwashing, or anything of the sort. Rather, these simply are verses of inspiration that came to mind while reading your post (with a bit of study).

Gluttony (on a side note, yes you are right about gluttony). Gluttony & drunkards/winebibbers are put into the same category in no less than 5 verses.
Psalm 23:19 Hear, my son, and be wise; And guide your heart in the way. 20 Do not mix with winebibbers, Or with gluttonous eaters of meat; 21 For the drunkard and the glutton will come to poverty, And drowsiness will clothe a man with rags.

Confusion!!!
1 corinthians 14:33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints. v.31 For ye may all prophesy one by one, that all may learn, and all may be comforted. v.29 Let the prophets speak two or three, and let the other judge.
Yes, these verses are about talking in other languages, but they highlight the issue. The purpose of 'speaking by divine inspiration' (prophesying) is that we may learn and be comforted, not confused. And yes, we ARE to judge (& test) those prophesying.
Psalm 71:1 In thee, O Lord, do I put my trust: let me never be put to confusion. 2 Deliver me in thy righteousness, and cause me to escape: incline thine ear unto me, and save me. 3 Be thou my strong habitation, whereunto I may continually resort: thou hast given commandment to save me; for thou art my rock and my fortress.
Psalm 60:3 You have shown Your people hard things; You have made us drink the wine of confusion.
Ok, the bible does stop short of saying thou shalt not drink wine, but it does say "be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess" (more on this later).

Drink V Drunk
1 Timothy 3:8 Likewise must the deacons be grave, not double tongued, not given to much wine, not greedy of filthy lucre;
From Thayer's Greek Lexicon 'given' (prosecho)= to devote thought and effort to [this verse quoted]; & 'much' (ploys)= many, much large.
These guidelines for the deacons of the churches indicate that even thinking about Beer O'clock is not a desirable characteristic for deacons as role models. This is what we should want to aim for.

Abusing God's grace = Hellfire?
Matthew 5 (The Beatitudes)
20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven. 21 Ye have heard that it was said of them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment: 22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.
Think about this in light of Matthew 23:1 (the first verse, up top). Are we calling people in our church (worse our leaders) fools?
Matthew 18:6 But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea. 7 Woe unto the world because of offences! for it must needs be that offences come; but woe to that man by whom the offence cometh!… 9 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire.
Now we get to the nitty gritty. Is what we are doing "offend(ing) one of these little ones which believes in Me"? If it is "Just Don't Do It".
Remember Galations 2:11-21 where Paul reproved Peter for double standards and hypocrisy?
My short rant. I may be able to control my own drinking but i can't control someone else's. If a new believer reads what the bible says about all the negative results of drunkenness and then see's his brothers in christ drinking this creates confusion! To you a wine with a meal may be normal, but to me it might lead to another then another etc… (anyway enough of that).

Is Drinking Abusing God's Grace?
Ephesians 5
Be ye therefore followers of God, as dear children; 3 But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints; 4 Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks. 5 For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. 6 Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience. 7 Be not ye therefore partakers with them. 8 For ye were sometimes darkness, but now are ye light in the Lord: walk as children of light. 11 And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them.12 For it is a shame even to speak of those things which are done of them in secret.
Honestly, how many of these things follow alcohol?
15 See then that ye walk circumspectly, not as fools, but as wise, 16 Redeeming the time, because the days are evil. 17 Wherefore be ye not unwise, but understanding what the will of the Lord is. 18 And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess (From Thayer's Greek Lexicon 'excess' here is 'esotia' which is defined as referring to the character of an abandoned man, one that cannot be saved)!!!; but be filled with the Spirit 19 Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord;
As much as we might not like to hear it, this verse makes it crystal clear. The old preacher may just be right after all!
 

aspen

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we do not speak the language of salvation or even Christianity in Western culture, Arnie. We speak consumerism. We speak 'bread and circuses'.

True Christianity relies on God for all fulfillment so that we can go out and love our neighbors abundantly - thankfully, you are well aware of this process because you are a Christian,
 

This Vale Of Tears

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laid renard said:
I was in service a few days ago, when the pastor said that he does not ever partake of even one alcoholic drink. I sometimes partake, but not to a drunken state.

He then went on to say that those who do drink and are believers are abusing God's grace and are in danger of hell fire.

I felt very confused for I immediately thought, not in a mean manner, for I am not like that, but like I said, just in a confused way, that this did not make sense to me, for the pastor is extremely over weight. Would not gluttony be considered abuse of our bodies as well and also be considered abusing God/s grace if we follow this stream of thought ?

Like I said, this last sermon left me very confused.
Have you ever read the late Pastor Wilkerson's book Sipping Saints? This kind of thinking is nothing new. But you haven't seen nutty until you hear these people rant about how Jesus never drank alcoholic wine. It's actually a little entertaining to see how far people will twist Scripture to fit their predetermined beliefs.
 

FHII

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This Vale Of Tears said:
Have you ever read the late Pastor Wilkerson's book Sipping Saints? This kind of thinking is nothing new. But you haven't seen nutty until you hear these people rant about how Jesus never drank alcoholic wine. It's actually a little entertaining to see how far people will twist Scripture to fit their predetermined beliefs.
Yea!!! I agree!
 

williemac

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brrrilliantsteve said:
Abusing God's grace = Hellfire?
Matthew 5 (The Beatitudes)
20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven. 21 Ye have heard that it was said of them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment: 22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.
Think about this in light of Matthew 23:1 (the first verse, up top). Are we calling people in our church (worse our leaders) fools?
The people of that day considered the Pharisees to be the most righteous in their midst. It would be like telling a catholic " If you are not holier than the Pope, you have no hope"

This passage is intended to reveal to the people that they cannot attain to the righteousness required by God. He is demonstrating to them just how far men fall short. How is it that this escapes your understanding? But..In Rom.5, we read that the gift of righteousness is given freely by faith because of the righteous act of ONE MAN; Jesus. This is the only way that our righteousness will be acceptable to God; when it is His righteousness in us, imputed (given) to us by faith. Leave that part out and all we end up with is death and condemnation...the ministry of the letter.

As for this requirement for deacons...."not given to much wine".... It doesn't say "any wine". It is referring to excess (much). Be careful not to twist the intended meaning.
 

williemac

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brrrilliantsteve said:
15 See then that ye walk circumspectly, not as fools, but as wise, 16 Redeeming the time, because the days are evil. 17 Wherefore be ye not unwise, but understanding what the will of the Lord is. 18 And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess (From Thayer's Greek Lexicon 'excess' here is 'esotia' which is defined as referring to the character of an abandoned man, one that cannot be saved)!!!; but be filled with the Spirit 19 Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord;
As much as we might not like to hear it, this verse makes it crystal clear. The old preacher may just be right after all!


Honestly, how many of these things follow alcohol?
Here again. The exhortation is about excessive use of alcohol. It says do not be drunk. As for Thayer's lexicon, I wouldn't be running to other sources to put words in Paul's mouth. There is no indication in this letter that he is hanging salvation on this instruction.
The point is that we ought to get our life from God and not from the bottle. But as far as wine goes, even Jesus turned water to wine. And no, it was not fruit juice. That idea is often a feeble attempt from some, to support a legalistic mindset that any kind of alcohol consumption can reverse salvation.

I know people who have been in AA for years. And they still stand up and say " I am an alcoholic". Of course, the flesh has its lusts and addictions. It lusts against the spirit and vica versa. But anyone who has struggled with an addiction will have empathy for those who are bound up with one. Others will simply have judgment. But Jesus on the other hand, wants us to come alongside and help our brothers, not reject them. For an addict, even one drink is to be avoided. For others, it has virtually no adverse effect on the psyche, as it doesn't even come close to the label of excess.

For those who are weak, they should avoid temptation. But a little wind for the stomach was Paul's prescription for a sick brother. Would he say that if he was as prohibitive about drinking as some suggest?

The sad reality is that people are so quick to strain out the proverbial gnat and swallow the proverbial camel, in that there are many other kinds of addictions that befall the human race, not the least of which is food addictions. Who will cast the first stone?
 

laid renard

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I want to thank everyone who responded to my topic. About 95 percent of what was discussed ministered to me greatly. :)
In fact so much, that it would take too long to answer each individually! Thanks again!!! B)

I was a quiet, pensive child, and not the kind to be cruel to people, but something reinforced in me not to judge others when I was a teen. I was watching one of those health and exercise programs, when the host had on a guest who was extremely obese. He asked her how she got to that point and her response was that when her daughter was seven years old, she was kidnapped by a stranger, raped, and killed. She buried her utter grief in food, for she did not do drugs or smoked.
I did the same thing as a teen. I drank to numb the horrible abuse that was going on in my life, and I mean horrible. Many times I drank to the point of blacking out.
But when I became an adult I became more mature and learned better coping skills. I no longer drink to that blacking out point. I am now a mild to moderate drinker (I feel as if I am being healed gradually), any most of the time could take it or leave it. Like I said, gradually.
But once in a while I fall off the wagon and get drunk. Not to the point of passing out thank God. Those days are forever gone. But I sometimes feel the need to numb the pain, just as that woman did, and I turn to alcohol when, due to my fault, I grow impatient with God's timing. I just need to numb the pain or I will lose it, it gets that intense.
My ex husband kidnapped my daughter when she was very young, when he had no legal custody whatsoever due to his life style. I do not know where she is and know that he is raising her as an atheist as he is. This hurts me more than words can say. I pray everyday for God to send her "witnessing spirits".
I cry my self to sleep every night inwardly, and sometimes outwardly. But I have learned to shut down those tears for they made me miss work once cause my face was so swollen I could just not go in.

So, I started this topic for, like I said, my confusion. For I once fell into legalism. To the point I suffered from the fear of the unpardonable sin for over a decade. Not fun let me tell you that. But one day, as if appointed by God, I stumbled across a program discussing the subject of legalism. It recommended if you had fallen into it, to stop all activity for a short while that you were doing to earn your salvation. No attending church, no tithing, etc. The only thing you were not to stop doing was praying to God and reading and studying His word.
So I tried it. And it worked! I was released from that horrible dark night of the soul once it registered into my spirit there was nothing apart from the cross that could save me. As a result, I now attend church and give monetarily, stemming from a place of love, not as a down payment for my mansion in the sky (earth after 10,000 years).

Now I just have to find the right church is all. Please don't get me wrong, I do not leave a church for insignificant reasons of disagreement. Just the larger ones that will lead to a weakened walk with Him. Like the church I left because the tithing money was used to buy the pastor and his wife each a BMW.
Now it seems like this one I shall be leaving as well. For I do not ever want to go back to that dark, dark place again where I thought God had thrown me away cause I could not perform well enough to Holy standard. No one can do that except that they do one thing. And I have done it.


May God Bless You All More Than You Can Ever Imagine~ :)
 

Raeneske

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laid renard said:
I was in service a few days ago, when the pastor said that he does not ever partake of even one alcoholic drink. I sometimes partake, but not to a drunken state.

He then went on to say that those who do drink and are believers are abusing God's grace and are in danger of hell fire.

I felt very confused for I immediately thought, not in a mean manner, for I am not like that, but like I said, just in a confused way, that this did not make sense to me, for the pastor is extremely over weight. Would not gluttony be considered abuse of our bodies as well and also be considered abusing God/s grace if we follow this stream of thought ?

Like I said, this last sermon left me very confused.
I agree with the Pastor who said those that partake in alcohol are in danger of hellfire. Yes, even one drink.

As for gluttony, that too is a sin. I'm thinking though, is it truly a gluttonous problem? Or could it be health related, that which he struggles with?

He still must preach the truth, even if he has a problem in some areas. He could admit to his problem in that area while preaching. I do not think that would destroy the message in the least bit. We are all erring mortals. He could share what is working with him, and how he has been struggling to overcome, and offer suggestions. It's blessings like that that could make the sermon more powerful. The Pastor lived it, and is struggling with it. The Pastor gives evidence of the methods that have worked that the LORD has graciously blessed him with.
 

williemac

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Raeneske said:
I agree with the Pastor who said those that partake in alcohol are in danger of hellfire. Yes, even one drink.

As for gluttony, that too is a sin. I'm thinking though, is it truly a gluttonous problem? Or could it be health related, that which he struggles with?
So, you are in the salvation by works camp, are you? You think that Jesus never allowed for our weakness and our flesh, by making His sacrifice weaker and less effective than the blood of bulls and goats? His was an inferior sacrifice? He did not by the one offering, perfect forever those who are being sanctified? (Heb.10:14) And by the way, He changed water to wine. Your insinuation that taking one drink is sin, is out of touch with reality.

laid renard said:
I want to thank everyone who responded to my topic. About 95 percent of what was discussed ministered to me greatly. :)
In fact so much, that it would take too long to answer each individually! Thanks again!!! B)

I was a quiet, pensive child, and not the kind to be cruel to people, but something reinforced in me not to judge others when I was a teen. I was watching one of those health and exercise programs, when the host had on a guest who was extremely obese. He asked her how she got to that point and her response was that when her daughter was seven years old, she was kidnapped by a stranger, raped, and killed. She buried her utter grief in food, for she did not do drugs or smoked.
I did the same thing as a teen. I drank to numb the horrible abuse that was going on in my life, and I mean horrible. Many times I drank to the point of blacking out.
But when I became an adult I became more mature and learned better coping skills. I no longer drink to that blacking out point. I am now a mild to moderate drinker (I feel as if I am being healed gradually), any most of the time could take it or leave it. Like I said, gradually.
But once in a while I fall off the wagon and get drunk. Not to the point of passing out thank God. Those days are forever gone. But I sometimes feel the need to numb the pain, just as that woman did, and I turn to alcohol when, due to my fault, I grow impatient with God's timing. I just need to numb the pain or I will lose it, it gets that intense.
My ex husband kidnapped my daughter when she was very young, when he had no legal custody whatsoever due to his life style. I do not know where she is and know that he is raising her as an atheist as he is. This hurts me more than words can say. I pray everyday for God to send her "witnessing spirits".
I cry my self to sleep every night inwardly, and sometimes outwardly. But I have learned to shut down those tears for they made me miss work once cause my face was so swollen I could just not go in.

So, I started this topic for, like I said, my confusion. For I once fell into legalism. To the point I suffered from the fear of the unpardonable sin for over a decade. Not fun let me tell you that. But one day, as if appointed by God, I stumbled across a program discussing the subject of legalism. It recommended if you had fallen into it, to stop all activity for a short while that you were doing to earn your salvation. No attending church, no tithing, etc. The only thing you were not to stop doing was praying to God and reading and studying His word.
So I tried it. And it worked! I was released from that horrible dark night of the soul once it registered into my spirit there was nothing apart from the cross that could save me. As a result, I now attend church and give monetarily, stemming from a place of love, not as a down payment for my mansion in the sky (earth after 10,000 years).

Now I just have to find the right church is all. Please don't get me wrong, I do not leave a church for insignificant reasons of disagreement. Just the larger ones that will lead to a weakened walk with Him. Like the church I left because the tithing money was used to buy the pastor and his wife each a BMW.
Now it seems like this one I shall be leaving as well. For I do not ever want to go back to that dark, dark place again where I thought God had thrown me away cause I could not perform well enough to Holy standard. No one can do that except that they do one thing. And I have done it.


May God Bless You All More Than You Can Ever Imagine~ :)
Blessing to you, as well. I will include you and your daughter in my prayers and in our church prayer group. Grace and peace, Howie