Something my pastor said during service

[ChristianJuggarnaut]

Yes, you are right. I will have fruits and vegetables whenever I tap a keg.

But no cheeseburgers.

I have difficulty believing you actually hold these opinions. Then I think of the shape the world is in and I realize that you do.

 

[River Jordan]

Yes, you are right. I will have fruits and vegetables whenever I tap a keg.

But no cheeseburgers.

Do you agree there's a difference between eating a cheeseburger now and then and eating lots of cheeseburgers until you throw up?

I have difficulty believing you actually hold these opinions. Then I think of the shape the world is in and I realize that you do.

I don't understand your point. Are you saying that Christians believing that a glass of wine with the occasional dinner is a sign of something being wrong with the world? If so, how do you account for the Jewish testimony describing how they've incorporated wine into their culture and religion for thousands of years, and that they believe the natural fermentation process is a sign from God that alcoholic wine is something God intended?

 

[ChristianJuggarnaut]

Are we Jewish?

New Wine is strictly a Christian concept.

We are called to a higher calling.

That is our freedom.

The freedom from sin.

 

[River Jordan]

Are we Jewish?

New Wine is strictly a Christian concept.

Since there is no explicit commandment in scripture saying "Even one drink of alcohol is a sin", we are relying in part on Jewish scriptures and traditions to inform our views. For example, there has been a lot of discussion of Jesus turning water into wine at a Jewish wedding. Well, Jewish tradition is to have Kosher (alcoholic) wine at their weddings, and Jews insist this has been the case for thousands of years. Thus, IMO, it is reasonable to conclude that the wine referred to in that account contained alcohol. We can also say the same about the Last Supper, given that it was a Jewish Passover meal.

We are called to a higher calling.

That is our freedom.

The freedom from sin.

Yet no one has demonstrated that having one glass of wine at a meal is a sin. Contrarily, there are plenty of reasons (see above) to conclude that a glass of wine with a meal, or at a celebration (like a wedding) is Biblically acceptable.

But again, no one is trying to convince you to start drinking today. I think the main point is to try and convince you to stop being so judgmental towards Christians who do drink alcohol, especially given the lack of a clear scriptural commandment otherwise.

 

[KingJ]

Would it be acceptable in the new millennium? I don't know. I have never thought about it until you asked. Good question. My initial reaction would be that it is a moot point. If we will be drinking alcohol, wouldn't you agree that not one single person would abuse it? Thus the point is moot. The deciding factor would be, we can abuse it now, if we can't then, is it the same? I will put more thought into it. I enjoy running across things I have never considered. Excellent question.

SL

Well I have been thinking on my question too....and realized it is actually questionable if we will. Why would we have something that can cause us to make a fool of ourselves if we have 'one' on an empty stomach?

Then I have been stuck with this thought in my head of... how is drinking, not playing with fire? It is not exactly on par with food, because there is no alcohol % in food.

This really is becoming a knife edge matter of judgement. I still maintain that responsible Christians can drink...but how many 'responsible' Christians are there? Can we preach casual drinking as a precedent as a result? Today, liberal Christians will have no constraint. They will preach casual drinking but never live by it. Liberal Christians have '''nothing''' on Jewish restraint and that is the problem ministers today have.

To understand the Jews and drinking we need to visualise being under a harsh law. They had harsh punishments in place on sins accompanying debauchery. We can learn a lot from the 'purim feast' http://www.jewfaq.org/holiday9.htm. The feast is preceded by a fast! :lol:

1. But again, no one is trying to convince you to start drinking today. 2. I think the main point is to try and convince you to stop being so judgmental towards Christians who do drink alcohol, especially given the lack of a clear scriptural commandment otherwise.

1. But we are. That is the point of this discussion.
2. It really irks me to hear you use the word judgemental. Christianity 101 is to judge all things...including brothers and sisters. Ugly = ugly = separate issue.

 

[River Jordan]

Ok then, you're the only one here actually trying to get Christians who believe drinking is wrong to start drinking today. But that's not my intent at all.

And yes, I realize that being highly judgmental towards other Christians is your whole raison d'etre. You've made that abundantly clear.

 

[KingJ]

Ok then, you're the only one here actually trying to get Christians who believe drinking is wrong to start drinking today. But that's not my intent at all.

I consider myself accountable for everything I espouse, as should you.

And yes, I realize that being highly judgmental towards other Christians is your whole raison d'etre. You've made that abundantly clear.

Do you know that judgement is what Christianity is all about? That is why atheists / Christians in rebellion always like miss quoting it with the word 'judgemental'. If my goal was to destroy or condemn, sure, I will even help you pick up the cane for my behind....but if it's not...then will you cane yourself? Or be honest with your intentions here?

 

[River Jordan]

I consider myself accountable for everything I espouse, as should you.

Of course I do, but "being accountable" does not mean "try and convince everyone to do everything I do".

Do you know that judgement is what Christianity is all about? That is why atheists / Christians in rebellion always like miss quoting it with the word 'judgemental'. If my goal was to destroy or condemn, sure, I will even help you pick up the cane for my behind....but if it's not...then will you cane yourself? Or be honest with your intentions here?

Yep, yep....as soon as I show you some of the ridiculously hateful things you've posted to me, you'll say "But you're an undercover atheist" or something. :lol:

 

[Secondhand Lion]

Well I have been thinking on my question too....and realized it is actually questionable if we will. Why would we have something that can cause us to make a fool of ourselves if we have 'one' on an empty stomach?

Then I have been stuck with this thought in my head of... how is drinking, not playing with fire? It is not exactly on par with food, because there is no alcohol % in food.

This really is becoming a knife edge matter of judgement. I still maintain that responsible Christians can drink...but how many 'responsible' Christians are there? Can we preach casual drinking as a precedent as a result? Today, liberal Christians will have no constraint. They will preach casual drinking but never live by it. Liberal Christians have '''nothing''' on Jewish restraint and that is the problem ministers today have.

To understand the Jews and drinking we need to visualise being under a harsh law. They had harsh punishments in place on sins accompanying debauchery. We can learn a lot from the 'purim feast' http://www.jewfaq.org/holiday9.htm. The feast is preceded by a fast! :lol:

I think I am in complete agreement with this statement. I have continued to think on the question and can not come up with an answer, although I basically believe it is doubtful (probably based on my other views of drinking though).

We will be held accountable for everything we espouse, every argument we gave, and the trickiest part...our heart motive in doing it.

I could go into a dissertation on the liberty we have in Christ here and everything that means, but I have been gone a couple of days and it seems this thread has run its course. It was a fun conversation.