Something my pastor said during service

[laid renard]

Blessing to you, as well. I will include you and your daughter in my prayers and in our church prayer group. Grace and peace, Howie

Thank you so much. I do not take prayer lightly, for I believe prayer truly changes things.

Case in point: I know that many here on this topic were praying for me yesterday, for I felt this over whelming sense of the Holy Spirit.

It was beautiful.

Thank you all who prayed.

*BIG HUG*

laid renard
PS,

Yesterday I got dressed so I could take a walk to the corner store and pick up a 12 pack. But something stopped me. It said, "Do you really need this ? I mean do you really need this, or is it just something you are doing out of habit ?"

I quieted my mind and thought for a moment before I came to the conclusion that no I did not need it, or even wanted it, I was just bored.

It was later that evening that I felt the presence of the Holy Spirit. And for a moment in time, I was somewhat relieved of my worries.

I want to feel that way totally, for it was not on full register. I want the peace that passes all understanding.

 

[KingJ]

I was in service a few days ago, when the pastor said that he does not ever partake of even one alcoholic drink. I sometimes partake, but not to a drunken state.

He then went on to say that those who do drink and are believers are abusing God's grace and are in danger of hell fire.

I felt very confused for I immediately thought, not in a mean manner, for I am not like that, but like I said, just in a confused way, that this did not make sense to me, for the pastor is extremely over weight. Would not gluttony be considered abuse of our bodies as well and also be considered abusing God/s grace if we follow this stream of thought ?

Like I said, this last sermon left me very confused.

What exactly did he say? There is 1. drinking, 2. drunkennes and then 3. drunkennes and revelry. Isaiah 5:11 talks against drunkennes and Rom 13:13 against ''wild parties and drunkenness''.

I have always believed that if we were all Christians at a party, there would be nothing wrong with getting drunk. It is the revelry and addiction that is bad. Note how Isa 5:11 says ''rise early in the morning to run after their drinks''

 

[laid renard]

Even one drink. :wacko:

I don't get it. Wouldn't that be the same as fish and loaves of bread being wrong to eat ? :blink:

 

[KingJ]

Fish and loaves don't make you dizzy and say stupid things. But then one drink doesn't either. The ONLY time one drink is bad is if you have it with a saved friend who believes one drink is evil or an unsaved trying to stop drinking.


Or....like what happens to me mostly, they see one drink = able to get sloshed with them.... :blink: . That's why I make sure all can see my drink is 'lite'. I get 'smashed' with my wife every 3-4 months when we alone. Being dizzy together is great :).

 

[Secondhand Lion]

I have been watching this thread with more than a little fascination. A couple of things have jumped out at me as very interesting.

First, how quickly we are to "judge" the pastor in this situation, who, by the way, is not here to defend himself (assuming he would), all the while commenting on how the pastor should not judge. It is incredible to see how quickly a straight line can be drawn from being over weight to gluttony, as if there were no other reason he could possibly be over weight. A few of the comments have even been by people whom I would believe would defend anyone that was being blasted for being overweight on a normal day. Why the jump straight to gluttony? Very interesting, could something else be in\at play?

Second, I am not, nor have I ever taken a single drink of alcohol, of any kind. I will never drink. This statement may disqualify me in some eyes as being able to rightly discern anything along this line of conversation. I do not try to stop anyone from drinking, nor will I. It is, quite frankly, none of my business. If asked, I will tell you that I believe it is wrong....especially for a Christian. Is it sin? Yes. Is it worse sin than I have in my life having never taken a drink? No.

I can not rightly judge the struggle with the sin of drinking having never taken a drink, but I do have sin in my life that I do struggle with on a daily basis, and on that same principle, I can tell you, it is easy to try to justify myself, tell myself why I got trapped in the same pattern again, how I got trapped, and it's not really my fault. I, like many, struggle laying aside the sin which does easily beset me. (Hebrews 12:1)

Grace and mercy are amazing concepts. I can not fully grasp them. Grace (obtaining something I do not deserve to obtain) is something I hope we have all experienced here, and it is something we can not hope to deserve in it's purest form. God does caution us in intentionally doing something knowing we can count on His grace to cover us. We would count the blood of Christ an unworthy thing and in that case...It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God. (Hebrews 10:26-31)

Mercy (not getting what I do deserve) is definitely something we all get everyday from God. One of the truest marks of a Christian is how compassionate you can be toward your fellow man...knowing that ultimate mercy God has poured out on you. You can easily put yourself into their shoes...so to speak. But this compassion still does not confuse right\wrong, good\evil.

All this being said, my heart breaks for this situation, and I have been keeping it in my prayers lately. It is so hard some days in our struggle with sin...others it seems like an easy task. My hope is, we have all obtained grace and mercy. My hope is, we all understand what we deserve. My hope is, we will be willing to extend that same grace and mercy....even to the pastor...even if he is a glutton not a drinker.

SL

 

[laid renard]

I feel that if this pastor is overweight due to no fault of his own, he should state so when throwing out such legalistic statements as he did. It would leave no room for yet a second disagreement.
But like I said in my original post, I was not wondering what I was in a mean way, for I am not like that, but in a confused way.
Doesn't matter anymore anyway, for I am not returning to a legalistic church.

Fish and loaves don't make you dizzy and say stupid things. But then one drink doesn't either.

The comparisons I was linking together was that they were both miracles that Jesus created. He turned water into wine and multiplied the fish and bread.
Why would Jesus turn water into wine for people to drink if even one drink was a sin ?
That would be like Jesus turning wheat into crack or meth in which for us to partake. I don't think a drink or two is sinful or Jesus would never had created it for the people at the wedding celebration to drink.

 

[KingJ]

:) I am enjoying this discussion. We covering an issue overlooked by many churches imho.

It is better for a pastor to preach what he believes to be the truth, then compromise it...even if he is a hypocrite. Judging the message and the pastor are separate issues.


Jesus did turn the water into wine, but did He drink and get drunk? Who are we following? The potentiall unsaved Jewish family or Jesus? What is clear to us all from that miracle is that Jesus does not regard wine as evil. Jesus gave the wine, just as He gives us brains....which leads to cars and nice churches or guns and drugs.

Conclusion:

Wine = neither good or evil.
Abuse of wine = evil
State of revelry from abuse of wine = very evil

 

[laid renard]

.

It is better for a pastor to preach what he believes to be the truth, then compromise it...even if he is a hypocrite.

I don't understand. What's the alternative ? :) Did you make a Freudian slip with your "then" ? *cough* than than than

Judging the message and the pastor are separate issues.

In most cases it would be. But not if the whole thing resonates of people in glass houses....

Jesus did turn the water into wine, but did He drink and get drunk? Who are we following?

Maybe he didn't turn it into Manischewitz.

Wine = neither good or evil.

Nuh uh.
I disagree
Wine is not "neither good nor evil." It is good.
Just like a broom. If you use it to beat someone to death, it is not the brooms fault.






Ps

Love your bible.

 

[KingJ]

I don't understand. What's the alternative ? :) Did you make a Freudian slip with your "then" ? *cough* than than than

Nice word there. You taught me something. The alternative to 'preaching honestly' = none, not even before God 1 Cor 11:31. But in every church there must exist...elders who can correct a solo preacher in error.

I can accept that wine is good. God created all and said it was good Gen 1:31.

If preachers had to be mindful of their own hypocrisy whilst preaching, we would have no preachers, surely 1 John 1:8.

It is important for us and them to gauge mortal and venial sins. No preacher in mortal sin should preach.

Gluttony as the Romans did it was to eat, throw up, eat, throw up..... ''feasts lasted from noon till midnight''. http://www.lookandlearn.com/blog/27508/gluttony-hastened-the-decline-and-fall-of-the-roman-empire/

Hence a fat person is not necessarily a glutton. Plus, how do you know he isn't eating normal? Just taking a while to lose that fat because he is not physically active? :).

 

[laid renard]

I'm going to do it this way cause it's easier. :)

Nice word there. You taught me something. The alternative to 'preaching honestly' = none, not even before God 1 Cor 11:31. But in every church there must exist...elders who can correct a solo preacher in error.

True. I hope they do....



I can accept that wine is good. God created all and said it was good Gen 1:31.

Cheers. :)



If preachers had to be mindful of their own hypocrisy whilst preaching, we would have no preachers, surely 1 John 1:8.

And the churches were without form and void.... :lol:



It is important for us and them to gauge mortal and venial sins. No preacher in mortal sin should preach.

What is the difference between the two ? Out of curiosity, are you Catholic ? :)



Gluttony as the Romans did it was to eat, throw up, eat, throw up..... ''feasts lasted from noon till midnight''. http://www.lookandlearn.com/blog/27508/gluttony-hastened-the-decline-and-fall-of-the-roman-empire/

Rome was comprised of teen age girls ? :blink:



Hence a fat person is not necessarily a glutton. Plus, how do you know he isn't eating normal? Just taking a while to lose that fat because he is not physically active? :).

True. But as I stated earlier, if he gave his sermon any real thought, he would have included that important footnote. Considering the topic. To avoid any confusion. Such as what occurred in my eager to soak up the word little mind.

.





Footnote.

Maybe after a being a preacher for a while you forget to go the extra mile and make your sermons as seamless as they once were.

Just guessing cause I'm trying to give him the benefit of the doubt. :)

Hope it doesn't sound like I'm judging. I guess sometimes it's a fine line between that and holding one another accountable as Christians. Sigh.....

But like I said, it really doesn't matter anymore for I'm looking for another church.

Partial to Pentecostal myself. :)

 

[KingJ]

Mortal sin = grave sin and Venial sin = lessor sin. I am not Catholic, but I agree with a lot of their teachings.

We have every right to judge those within 1 Cor 5:12. What we have done above is judge properly but not condemned. Punishment is God's baby.

For me the lesson here is to heed the need for elders in a church. Paul appointed them in every church Titus 1:5. No church can / should run without them Prov 11:14.

 

[River Jordan]

So where is the scripture that says even one drink is a sin? Here in the Pacific Northwest, there are some churches that have bible study/craft beer tasting nights (craft beers are a big thing out here).

 

[kjw47]

I would hate to think that we were both correct. That would mean I would have to earn my salvation.

My point is my confusion. Was the pastor being a hypocrite by pointing out others sins while over looking his? I could be missing something for I do not know him personally.

No, I won't be judged for my actions based on the sins of my pastor. I am white as snow thanks to Jesus.

Hope I answered your questions adequately.

Anyone who gets salvation will earn it. ---Jesus taught--Matt 7:21-23--Those who do the will of my Father in heaven will enter his kingdom--Gods will =-- go sin no more( Jesus taught this a few times.)-- how easy is it for a mortal to not sin in a satan controlled world? this easy---Jesus taught-- enter through the narrow gate, for cramped is the road that leads off into life( eternal)--FEW WILL FIND IT--- you see only few do Gods will. Not a single mortal on earth knows who does Gods will--sop no mortal can tell another they are saved--it is a lie if they do.

 

[aspen]

i do not think that the sin of gluttony is defined by the Romans. Consumerism is a form of gluttony so is alcoholism. also, we are all sinners even if we do not wear our sin on our waist, gut, thighs. Not that i envy obese people, but they do have a unique opportunity for spiritual growth. i think suffering from our own natural consequences brings tremendous personal awareness, humility, and spiritual growth if we are willing to take responsibility for our destructive actions.

 

[River Jordan]

Should Christians picket all you can eat buffets? Should we seek to shut them down? Should we be given the "freedom" to deny obese people services?

 

[aspen]

well bloomberg tried to ban large soda sizes in NY.... i am just saying...

 

[Hashe]

Mortal sin = grave sin and Venial sin = lessor sin. I am not Catholic, but I agree with a lot of their teachings.

We have every right to judge those within 1 Cor 5:12. What we have done above is judge properly but not condemned. Punishment is God's baby.

For me the lesson here is to heed the need for elders in a church. Paul appointed them in every church Titus 1:5. No church can / should run without them Prov 11:14.

In context, the judging is to be done by the church not just by an individual.

 

[ChristianJuggarnaut]

This thread has been reduced to a drunken like conversation at the corner pub.

As a matter of fact, I am reading all your posts with this drunken old guy voice. I wish you all could hear it. I am elbowing myself as I read and pretending the drunk guy is invading my personal space. Let's try out I will quote below some of the ideas and you read them in a drunken voice.

"Hey buddy, dontcha think, hey, dontcha think we should picket all you can buffets? I mean I hate legalism, dontcha hate legalism buddy, I sure do. I had this fat pastor oncet he was a legalistic, he tried to tell me not to drink, hey buddy, he said don't drink. Who does he think he is. Some fat gluttonous pig, but I am not being mean, no sir, that's not how I am. Hey buddy, hey want to come to a bible study at my Pacific Northwest church. We get really wasted and nobody is fat."

 

[River Jordan]

Of course the problem is, no one is advocating getting drunk (except KingJ with his wife).

I personally don't drink much, except maybe one or two craft beers a month, but I don't see drinking as a sin. Drunkenness OTOH is a sin. Ephesians 5:18

 

[aspen]

ok - THAT was funny CJ hahahaha