Something my pastor said during service

[Wormwood]

True. But is it necessary to put hedges around things like alcohol? Is the pastor right saying that a sip of alcohol sends a person to hell? Clearly the Bible makes drunkenness the issue, not responsible drinking. I don't think that erecting laws for all Christians because we have a culture that indulges in drunkenness is healthy...especially when it leads some to stand as judges over others who drink without the purpose or desire of getting drunk.

 

[Secondhand Lion]

KIngJ,

IF, and I hope you notice how big of an if that is, Matthew 15:11 means what you guys are saying it does, then who is to say taking "just one" of any illicit drug is bad? By the way, many have used that verse to justify just about anything you can imagine, if it is one of the verses the world uses to justify behavior...maybe we should think twice before throwing it out there to justify something, or maybe I am wrong. If we are discussing "degrees of sin", may we try to bear that out to see if it makes any sense?

Are you able to get drunk to revelry without ever taking the first drink?

How much closer are you to drunk to revelry with one drink than you were with none? (infinite)

So then, does it stand to reason, that the first drink does have an impact on you and any amount of drunkenness beyond 0 is drunkenness?

Therefore, we find a principle at work. 0=0 sin, 1=infinitely more sin

Alcohol (especially as we know it today) is a drug, we can not get around it. What is worse it is a known depressant. You have to keep drinking and keep drinking to maintain that "high" and your body always goes through a depressed state on the way back down, even beyond when your blood alcohol level evens out. Why are Christians putting a known depressant into their bodies? Are you not the dwelling of the Holy Spirit of God? http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/you-illuminated/201006/your-brain-alcohol <--not a christian publication

Why didn't anyone address my questions about why you do not give it to your 6 year old? Certainly he or she wouldn't be defiled by it if you put it in through their mouths right?

As I already stated in another post. Many will point you out as being a hypocrite as a Christian just for one drink. I will say the equal and opposite is true for those who wanted to take exception to that. Not drinking makes people automatically assume you are a Christian. Before Christ ever grabbed ahold of me, when I told people I didn't drink...they "accused" me of being a Christian. Just food for thought.

SL

 

[gerryrenaud]

May I be the first to congratulate you on using your first post on a Christian forum board to defend drinking alcohol. Of all the topics, all the threads, this is one your heart led you to. Amazing.

Hi CJ: Thanks for your reply. I just want you to know that I personally have an appreciation for sarcasm as you may see in the future. It used to be a weapon of choice of mine two years ago before I became born again and now I more often than not "attempt" be more Christ-like in my conversations. Unfortunately, I am still a sinner, and will occasionally also act childish. I did not realize that there was a requirement to scour this site to find the "perfect first post." I had not read that in the posted rules, so I humbly submit my most heartfelt apology for thinking that quoting Christ and the Apostle Paul would be sufficient for throwing my hat into the public ring for civil discourse. I realize that no one normally gets a second chance to make a first impression, but if you could find it within your supposed Christian heart I would be grateful. Many blessings to you and I look forward to possibly sharing some light heartened sarcasm with you in the future.

BTW, I entered this conversation because it was at the top of the list and I had not even yet looked at other on-going conversations.

P.S. My intention with this "first" post was to initiate a response on the greater point that I began with concerning Judaism's negative impact on Christianity and how pastors and other Christian leaders are not discerning the appropriate differences concerning what Christ taught, what Moses forced upon the Jews and what similarly is being incorrectly stuffed into Christianity. Pastors and other Christian leaders are allowing their Judaism to influence their and our Christianity with detrimental consequences. When I communicate with you in the future I will try to type s-l-o-w-e-r and and use smaller, easier to understand words. You will see as we move forward that this is the fact that I will drive home in all my postings. I know that this will be controversial but it will always be done in an attempt to bring Christ forward as the soul "author of our Faith."

P.S.S. I hope that this was enough sarcasm for you in one post. God bless!!!

 

[ChristianJuggarnaut]

Gerry (probably not even your real name)

Jesus said I would (sorry wormwood) I mean we would know a tree by its fruit. What is the fruit of alcohol? I hate drugs with a strong righteous indignation. I have little patience with believers who will defend seemingly to the death their right to abuse these substances.

I think if you look, you will see examples of sarcasm by many righteous biblical characters. I will give you one now and post more later.

"Perhaps your god is deaf, maybe he went on a long journey or trip."

 

[gerryrenaud]

KIngJ,

IF, and I hope you notice how big of an if that is, Matthew 15:11 means what you guys are saying it does, then who is to say taking "just one" of any illicit drug is bad? By the way, many have used that verse to justify just about anything you can imagine, if it is one of the verses the world uses to justify behavior...maybe we should think twice before throwing it out there to justify something, or maybe I am wrong. If we are discussing "degrees of sin", may we try to bear that out to see if it makes any sense?

Are you able to get drunk to revelry without ever taking the first drink?

How much closer are you to drunk to revelry with one drink than you were with none? (infinite)

So then, does it stand to reason, that the first drink does have an impact on you and any amount of drunkenness beyond 0 is drunkenness?

Therefore, we find a principle at work. 0=0 sin, 1=infinitely more sin

Alcohol (especially as we know it today) is a drug, we can not get around it. What is worse it is a known depressant. You have to keep drinking and keep drinking to maintain that "high" and your body always goes through a depressed state on the way back down, even beyond when your blood alcohol level evens out. Why are Christians putting a known depressant into their bodies? Are you not the dwelling of the Holy Spirit of God? http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/you-illuminated/201006/your-brain-alcohol <--not a christian publication

Why didn't anyone address my questions about why you do not give it to your 6 year old? Certainly he or she wouldn't be defiled by it if you put it in through their mouths right?

SL

My response is that Christ will be our judge when we sin and it will not be determined by man and his personal determining factors. Drinking alcohol may be a sin in Judaism but it does not rise to a judgmental sin in the New Testament by any standard of those teachings. Moderation is the key to all human activity that is not directly accorded as sinful by Christ's teachings. When it comes to determining my moderation it will be judged by myself and by Christ in the future.

As for you unanswered question concerning alcohol and six year old children is this. They do not have the maturity to understand moderation in anything and adults are supposed to protect them from harm. Also, there are reasons why the pharmaceutical industry makes children's aspirin and mandates lower dosages for all medicines when issuing to a child. Certain things are harmful to the development of a child that does not equally impact an adult. It is the same reason why children should not be given condoms in school-sorry, society is apparently already doing that. Maybe you will be allowed to give alcohol to a minor in the future based upon current practices of morality in this country, but I pray that will not happen. God bless.

Gerry (probably not even your real name)

Jesus said I would (sorry wormwood) I mean we would know a tree by its fruit. What is the fruit of alcohol? I hate drugs with a strong righteous indignation. I have little patience with believers who will defend seemingly to the death their right to abuse these substances.

I think if you look, you will see examples of sarcasm by many righteous biblical characters. I will give you one now and post more later.

"Perhaps your god is deaf, maybe he went on a long journey or trip."

Hi CJ: My name is Gerry as it appears. I feel no need at the present time to hide my name on a Christian site. I may change those thoughts in the future if Christians fail to live up to standards of following in Christ's footsteps.

BTW, righteousness is a judgment best left up to the Lord to decide. Your opinion on righteous indignation will always be just that, your opinion, unless you get the support from the teachings of Christ.

 

[Secondhand Lion]

My response is that Christ will be our judge when we sin and it will not be determined by man and his personal determining factors. Drinking alcohol may be a sin in Judaism but it does not rise to a judgmental sin in the New Testament by any standard of those teachings. Moderation is the key to all human activity that is not directly accorded as sinful by Christ's teachings. When it comes to determining my moderation it will be judged by myself and by Christ in the future.

As for you unanswered question concerning alcohol and six year old children is this. They do not have the maturity to understand moderation in anything and adults are supposed to protect them from harm. Also, there are reasons why the pharmaceutical industry makes children's aspirin and mandates lower dosages for all medicines when issuing to a child. Certain things are harmful to the development of a child that does not equally impact an adult. It is the same reason why children should not be given condoms in school-sorry, society is apparently already doing that. Maybe you will be allowed to give alcohol to a minor in the future based upon current practices of morality in this country, but I pray that will not happen. God bless.

Gerry,

You seem to be attributing a couple of arguments to me that I have not used. I have not brought the law into it, nor Judaism. Thank you for your admission that it would be doing harm to your children (as adults are supposed to protect them from harm), it is to an adult also. So would your argument also include any other drugs or is it just limited to alcohol? How about pornography? That goes in through the eyes...would just one look hurt? Jesus does not mention that. Is silence license? Is anything Jesus didn't mention fair game? Or do we have a schoolmaster that we can take example from?

If you haven't read all my previous posts I will restate a couple of things.

1. I am not condemning anything. Do what you want, you will stand before Christ for yourself. I am making a counter argument that I have found works for my own life. What Christ has given for instruction for my life...not yours. Christ kept me from alcohol before I ever came to Him, mainly because He knew I would use it to excess with my personality type even after I came. He kept me from the struggle. I certainly do not believe anyone here is trying to get me to take a first drink, but rather, just stating what they believe. Please don't assume I am trying to get you to stop because I state a standard for my life. Or am I wrong? Would you like for me to take that first drink since I know I won't be defiled? If not...why? In Christ...as my brother...do you want to encourage me to take that first drink ever? I will....just for you. How much do you believe it? Will you send me down that path?

2. I am very in tune with the Grace and Mercy of Christ. You are talking to a man who used more than the average persons share to come to Christ. I am foolish, weak, base and most days despised, I am as simple of a man as you have ever met. I am nothing. Walk as Christ has led you. I merely relate how He leads me.

SL

 

[Wormwood]

Gerry (probably not even your real name)

Jesus said I would (sorry wormwood) I mean we would know a tree by its fruit. What is the fruit of alcohol? I hate drugs with a strong righteous indignation. I have little patience with believers who will defend seemingly to the death their right to abuse these substances.

I think if you look, you will see examples of sarcasm by many righteous biblical characters. I will give you one now and post more later.

"Perhaps your god is deaf, maybe he went on a long journey or trip."

Alcohol is not a "drug." If it is a "drug" than Jesus was a "drug pusher" who miraculously made the finest "drug" on the market.

I have little patience for those who overstate their position when the OP is clearly about taking a "sip" of alcohol and not an attempt to "defend seemingly to the death their right to abuse these substances." As far as I know, no one has yet to post something in defense of drunkenness or abusing alcohol. Its easy to push over straw men, but none of these arguments you are attacking are the ones being defended here.

"Perhaps your god is deaf..." was mocking done toward pagans about the validity of their god that was leading Israel astray. Hardly a text to use as a basis for being mean-spirited to other believers with whom we are to express love, patience and forbearance and for whom Christ died. I'd quote a few passages about how Christians should speak to each other, but I am sure you are aware of them.

 

[River Jordan]

Is there a verse that says, "Take one drink of what you define alcohol as and it is sin"? No.

Surely if it were such an important issue, God would see fit to say so.

The Greek word used for wine is non-conclusive in my opinion. It is a general word for wine. It can not be proven that it is non-alcoholic any more than it can be proven it was absolutely alcoholic.

IMO, that's ridiculous. Wine, by definition, contains alcohol. The Greek word used to describe Christ's miracle is oinos, which is the same word used in Ephesians 5:18 ("do not get drunk with wine").

Would Jesus have made wine that people (maybe not even everyone), but anyone would get drunk on? Would not someone have drank to excess? Would Jesus put Himself into a position where He could be blamed for drunkenness (sin)? I certainly do not think so.

When Jesus did the miracle of feeding the multitudes, isn't it possible that someone there could have gorged themselves and been guilty of gluttony? Or taken the bread and fish, marked them up, sold them, and kept the profits, thereby being guilty of greed?

Lets assume for the time being that I am completely wrong about the above conclusion and the Greek word there absolutely indicates alcoholic wine, literally...no questions about it. Shouldn't we also take the exhortation in I Peter 5 super literally about being sober? The word sober http://biblehub.com/greek/3525.htm also doesn't necessarily only mean "no wine", but it is the main definition.

Taking one drink does not eliminate one from the category of "of sober mind".

Why do so many Christians who preach abstinence in so many areas seem to drop this standard when it comes to drinking?

Because there's no scriptural admonition against drinking alcohol, only against being drunk.

Why do we not allow our kids to drink alcohol?

Because they are still developing, and because one drink to a 6 year old is enough to get them drunk.

if it hurts the cause of Christ...it is not something we should be doing...and the number one thing an unsaved person wants to point out about "that hypocrite who claims to be a Christian over there" is that he drinks...

Perhaps the problem is with the misconception that Christians aren't allowed to drink at all. Perhaps we should correct that.

So you believe drinking more then one beer on the odd occasion is a sin? Because of Eph 5:18 .

It specifically says, don't get drunk. Do you not take that passage literally?

 

[ChristianJuggarnaut]

Wormwood,

Please do your diligence and try to keep up.

Some (myself included) are defending the position that Jesus made non alcoholic wine.

Some (myself included) are defending the position that defining a sip is absurd. We are asking what is drunkenness?

Alcohol and other drugs are leading "Israel" astray. So. Sarcasm allowed.

Don't let me live in your head rent free. I'm not worth it.

 

[gerryrenaud]

Gerry,

You seem to be attributing a couple of arguments to me that I have not used. I have not brought the law into it, nor Judaism. Thank you for your admission that it would be doing harm to your children (as adults are supposed to protect them from harm), it is to an adult also. So would your argument also include any other drugs or is it just limited to alcohol? How about pornography? That goes in through the eyes...would just one look hurt? Jesus does not mention that. Is silence license? Is anything Jesus didn't mention fair game? Or do we have a schoolmaster that we can take example from?

If you haven't read all my previous posts I will restate a couple of things.

1. I am not condemning anything. Do what you want, you will stand before Christ for yourself. I am making a counter argument that I have found works for my own life. What Christ has given for instruction for my life...not yours. Christ kept me from alcohol before I ever came to Him, mainly because He knew I would use it to excess with my personality type even after I came. He kept me from the struggle. I certainly do not believe anyone here is trying to get me to take a first drink, but rather, just stating what they believe. Please don't assume I am trying to get you to stop because I state a standard for my life. Or am I wrong? Would you like for me to take that first drink since I know I won't be defiled? If not...why? In Christ...as my brother...do you want to encourage me to take that first drink ever? I will....just for you. How much do you believe it? Will you send me down that path?

2. I am very in tune with the Grace and Mercy of Christ. You are talking to a man who used more than the average persons share to come to Christ. I am foolish, weak, base and most days despised, I am as simple of a man as you have ever met. I am nothing. Walk as Christ has led you. I merely relate how He leads me.

SL

I will honestly respect your testimony here and I do not criticize you for the choices you make which are admirable for knowing your weaknesses. But, your weaknesses are not the same as others. My personal journey to Christ started after 54 years of being lost while following an unnamed false Christian religion. I no longer follow any of mans made religions, but rather attend a Bible based church with nothing but the teachings and practices of Christ as my guide. My struggling journey to Christ so impacted my life that I have recently finished my manuscript for what I hope will lead to publishing. We as Christians make huge mistakes when we force upon others the doctrines of men. BTW, I never admitted to drinking any alcohol of any kind. All I have been saying is that Christ nor did any of His Apostles say or insinuate that it is sinful to do and that is the distinction that I am trying to quantify. I do believe that Christ was known to have shared wine with His disciples from time to time and that He even was known to make wine for special occasions. Christ even used wine to celebrate the Last Supper as a symbol of His blood. God Bless!

P.S. If I inadvertently attributed a remark that was not yours, I do apologize. I am still trying to get comfortable with the use of this site and I am not much of computer person. I hope that I did not grab the wrong quote to respond when I wrote. When I am wrong I will always graciously apologize if my mistake is reported in a Christ-like way.

 

[Wormwood]

CJ,

So far I have seen nothing but sarcasm from you and nothing that resembles the defense of a position. Who is the "we"? Do you have a frog in your pocket? How am I supposed to connect your sarcastic jabs to the arguments of another person here. If you have a point to make, make it. I cannot connect your imaginary dots between your posts and that of another which whom you are supposedly in league.

Definitions of "drunkenness" are easy enough to come by...are we really going down the road of defining what "is" is?

Baal worship = a glass of wine. Ahh... I see the connection. Go ahead, eviscerate the enemy.

You think you're "in my head?" Don't flatter yourself.

 

[ChristianJuggarnaut]

You seem angry Bro.

There are classes one can take for this.

It is nothing to be ashamed of.

Some, in the past, have mistakenly equated anger with mental illness. I assure you that teaching is misguided.

Apparently I can read all the posts in this thread, while you are only privy to some (mine).

Furthermore, I do have a frog in my pocket. What kind of magic is this that you already knew?

 

[laid renard]

You seem angry Bro.

There are classes one can take for this.

It is nothing to be ashamed of.

Some, in the past, have mistakenly equated anger with mental illness. I assure you that teaching is misguided.

Apparently I can read all the posts in this thread, while you are only privy to some (mine).

Furthermore, I do have a frog in my pocket. What kind of magic is this that you already knew?

Brother, please don't get my thread locked.

Take a step back, take a deep breathe, and please try to see how you are truly coming across.


In His love,

laid renard ~

 

[Wormwood]

Agreed LR. Lets keep this on the issues laid out in the OP.

Anyone want to share some kind of rationale as to why we should think the wine in the Bible (specifically that which Jesus made) was non-alcoholic? Is there any reason to suggest that the wine Paul told Timothy to drink was non-alcoholic as well? The Greek words used for this "wine" are pretty clear in my estimation that this was your average, everyday, fermented wine.

 

[gerryrenaud]

Does anyone know what the Greek or Hebrew words for "grape juice" are. Maybe it is juggarnaut!

 

[laid renard]

Anyone want to share some kind of rationale as to why we should think the wine in the Bible (specifically that which Jesus made) was non-alcoholic? Is there any reason to suggest that the wine Paul told Timothy to drink was non-alcoholic as well? The Greek words used for this "wine" are pretty clear in my estimation that this was your average, everyday, fermented wine.

Sometimes I think strange things..... lol. Now I'm wondering if the chemical components of the wine is important, due to the fact that the indwelling of the Holy Spirit is sometimes referred to as the "new wine", and seeing as this was Jesus' first recorded miracle, if it's one of those OT foreshadowings to events in the NT. It did take place after all at a wedding, and we are the bride of Christ. Why did God have this be the first recording of Jesus' miracles ?


Of course, I could just be tired.

Zzzzzzzzz,,,,,,,,,,


Edited to add: See! told you I was tired, I used commas after my Z's instead of periods! lol

Since I'm here, I think I'll add that in The Planet Of The Apes, Zira refers to alcoholic wine as "Grapejuice Plus" ! :lol: :lol: :lol:

 

[Wormwood]

Certainly all the miracles in John's Gospel point beyond themselves. Jesus raised Lazarus (I am the resurrection and the life), Jesus healed the blind (I am the light of the world), Jesus fed the 5,000 (I am the bread of life), etc. Clearly John's primary purpose in recording the miracle is not to make a point about alcohol consumption. It is certainly about the person and work of Jesus as Savior and Messiah, not about Jesus trying to quench the thirst of wedding participants.

However, I do think the act actually took place and the idea that this was merely non-alcoholic grape juice is more of a reflection and reaction to whats going in in our culture rather than Jesus'. In any event, there is no historical or linguistic justification for seeing this wine as anything but actual wine.

 

[laid renard]

OH MY GOSH I AM TIRED!!!

THIS IS A NT MIRACLE!!!!


I KNOW THAT!!!!



Pray for your dear sister everyone... :lol: :lol:


And no, I am not drunk on wine at the moment.

It just appears that way. :wacko:

Certainly all the miracles in John's Gospel point beyond themselves. Jesus raised Lazarus (I am the resurrection and the life), Jesus healed the blind (I am the light of the world), Jesus fed the 5,000 (I am the bread of life), etc. Clearly John's primary purpose in recording the miracle is not to make a point about alcohol consumption. It is certainly about the person and work of Jesus as Savior and Messiah, not about Jesus trying to quench the thirst of wedding participants.

However, I do think the act actually took place and the idea that this was merely non-alcoholic grape juice is more of a reflection and reaction to whats going in in our culture rather than Jesus'. In any event, there is no historical or linguistic justification for seeing this wine as anything but actual wine.

So what do you think this miracle was pointing to ? :)

 

[ChristianJuggarnaut]

Hebrew for unfermented "Tiyrosh"

For fermented "Yayin"

Greek for wine "Oinos" refers to fermented usually but also to unfermented in Matt. 9:17, Mark 2:22, Luke 5:37.

The Greek translation of the Old Testament (The Septuagint) uses Oinos for tiyrosh exclusively.

Therefore one needs to use total context.

 

[Wormwood]

[SIZE=medium]οἶνος, ου, ὁ[/SIZE] (Hom.+)
[SIZE=medium]①[/SIZE] a beverage made from fermented juice of the grape, wine; the word for ‘must’, or unfermented grape juice, is τρύξ (Anacr. et al.; pap)[SIZE=12pt][1][/SIZE]


[SIZE=12pt][1][/SIZE][SIZE=medium] William Arndt, Frederick W. Danker and Walter Bauer, A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature, 3rd ed. (Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 2000), 701.[/SIZE]

Oinos is ALWAYS in reference to grape juice that has been or is in the process of fermenting. It is never used of unfermented grape juice. That word for unfermented grape juice is τρύξ. I consulted about 15 different Greek lexicons on this word and not one gave "unfermented grape juice" as a possible translation of oinos.