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Son of Perdition

Discussion in 'Bible Study Forum' started by found in Alaska, Aug 30, 2008.

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  1. Jordan

    Jordan Active Member

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    (Red_Letters88;57837)
    (Kriss;57836)
    Whats the point if God has not yet judged anyone why would he break his own word and tell us this information ?we know Judas repented and are we to assume then that his repentance wasn't accepted? Is this Gods message? that only some repentance is accepted?I just think it requires alot speculation to believe this.God judges by ones heart after Satan left Judas do you really believe his heart was so evil that God rejected his repentance? This is what you have to speculate is true.
    I dont think anyone is so evil that God would all together reject their repentance. Once again- this goes back into did Judas try to recieve repentance from men in his own actions or from God. It also goes back to- Judas had the Choice to follow Jesus- God did not trap him into some deal....in this context of John, Judas COULD fit it.Might I add this scripture(s)?Matthew 12:31- Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.Matthew 12:32 - And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.*Ahem*Matthew 27:3 - Then Judas, which had betrayed him, when he saw that he was condemned, repented himself, and brought again the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and elders,Matthew 27:4 - Saying, I have sinned in that I have betrayed the innocent blood. And they said, What is that to us? see thou to that.(Red_Letters88;57838)
    (kriss;57832)
    Im saying it was Satan that entered Judas God says there is only one Son that is condemned to utter destruction already and that is Satan the same person as in 2 Thess ONE is ONE all of the rest of us including Judas are judged at the White throne Judgement So if there is only one already Judged to utter destruction and that is Satan we are speaking of this same person in John an 2 Thess. and Rev.By your own words which I agree with we do not necessarily know if Judas will be Judged to hell eternally But that's exactly what perdition means .... utterly destrotyed/ forever condemed .... There is only One already given this fate.
    Btw something caught my attention in this post: you say it was SATAN that entered Judas- making me think you might have come to the conclusion that the only one that did real evil here was satan. Didnt Jesus say woe to those that are used to bring sin into the world. We all know satan is full of lies and evil- but there is much blame on who he used as well. You can not say this person was merely kidnapped by satan in the flesh. I now understand why you think believers can be possessed (if memory serves me correctly)- because it wouldnt line up with your take on Judas' stance with God.John 4:42 - And said unto the woman, Now we believe, not because of thy saying: for we have heard him ourselves, and know that this is indeed the Christ, the Saviour of the world.I John 4:14 - And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world.
     
  2. Red_Letters88

    Red_Letters88 New Member

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    Might I add this scripture(s)?Matthew 12:31- Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.Matthew 12:32 - And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.*Ahem*Matthew 27:3 - Then Judas, which had betrayed him, when he saw that he was condemned, repented himself, and brought again the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and elders,Matthew 27:4 - Saying, I have sinned in that I have betrayed the innocent blood. And they said, What is that to us? see thou to that.John 4:42 - And said unto the woman, Now we believe, not because of thy saying: for we have heard him ourselves, and know that this is indeed the Christ, the Saviour of the world.I John 4:14 - And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world.
    Jordan.....nobody said Judas didnt feel guilt- and regret. I am purposely staying away from this part- because there is only so much we can know about it.
     
  3. Jordan

    Jordan Active Member

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    Jordan.....nobody said Judas didnt feel guilt- and regret. I am purposely staying away from this part- because there is only so much we can know about it.
    How is it you can talk to Kriss about this conversation, and not me?
     
  4. Red_Letters88

    Red_Letters88 New Member

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    How is it you can talk to Kriss about this conversation, and not me?
    Im not avoiding you Jordan, you know I love talking with you as well. Its just- me and Kriss werent really on that particular point.
     
  5. Jordan

    Jordan Active Member

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    How is it you can talk to Kriss about this conversation, and not me?
    Im not avoiding you Jordan, you know I love talking with you as well. Its just- me and Kriss werent really on that particular point.Neither am I talking about that subject, it has something about a conversation called son of perdition. [​IMG]
     
  6. Red_Letters88

    Red_Letters88 New Member

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    Neither am I talking about that subject, it has something about a conversation called son of perdition. [​IMG]
    Son of Perdition, who brought that up? lol [​IMG]
     
  7. Christina

    Christina New Member

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    Holy cow you guys did so much posting in the time it takes me to answer my post gets lost(LOL)All I know is there is only one God has prejudged and calls the SON of PERDITION in scripture and that is Satan. And you are right I believe God knew Judas had this weakness and that perhaps is why he was chosen, but then we have to consider would God have put this evil deed to his(Judas) credit if he knew it would condemn him to hell forever? In a sense would that have been fair to just a simple man? Who as far as we know committed no other major sin and had to have had some good works he was loved by Jesus and the other apostles, He also could have had no Idea it was going to result in Christs death as Pontus Pilate found no crime Jesus had committed it was the people lead by the priests that called for his death, there is no way Judas could have known the outcome before hand. I dont think God would have enginered his eternal damnation. I think God knew he would be repentant for his actions.
     
  8. waquinas

    waquinas New Member

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    Am still trying to figure out how Jesus gave Satan the Word while He was here on earth and Satan kept it.Mar 14:21 The Son of man indeed goeth, as it is written of him: but woe to that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! good were it for that man if he had never been born. That does not sound like someone that is saved to me but I guess we cannot really know.
     
  9. Christina

    Christina New Member

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    You are assuming Judas had no repentance what is repentance?? If so then what hope do any have who have stumbled You are assuming alot because as Red says someoine had to do this as Christ had to die. So if his weakness was used as Pharoh was used to bring about Gods Plan how can you assume that he has already received the same punishment as Satan gets
     
  10. waquinas

    waquinas New Member

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    actually I said we cannot know. However, again "better he never be born" does not sound like a good thing to me.Back to John recording Jesus prayer for his disciples. How in the middle of that can we seem Him switching to speaking of Satan? How is it possible that Satan be counted amoung those He gave the Word to and who "kept it"?
     
  11. tomwebster

    tomwebster New Member

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    (found in Alaska;57786)
    While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled. John 17:12Jesus said "None of them is lost, but the son of perdition", who was the son of perdition and how was he lost?
    Joh 17:12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition;(G684); that the scripture might be fulfilled. G684apōleiaap-o'-li-aFrom a presumed derivative of G622; ruin or loss (physical, spiritual or eternal): - damnable (-nation), destruction, die, perdition, X perish, pernicious ways, waste.G622apollumiap-ol'-loo-meeFrom G575 and the base of G3639; to destroy fully (reflexively to perish, or lose), literally or figuratively: - destroy, die, lose, mar, perish.G3639ὄλεθροςolethrosol'-eth-rosFrom ὄλλυμι ollumi a primary word (to destroy; a prolonged form); ruin, that is, death, punishment: - destruction.Rev 9:11 And they had a king over them, which is the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in the Hebrew tongue is Abaddon,(G3), but in the Greek tongue hath his name Apollyon.(G623). G3Abaddōnab-ad-dohn'Of Hebrew origin [H11]; a destroying angel: - Abaddon.G3639olethrosol'-eth-rosFrom ὄλλυμι ollumi a primary word (to destroy; a prolonged form); ruin, that is, death, punishment: - destruction.G623Apolluōnap-ol-loo'-ohnActive participle of G622; a destroyer (that is, Satan): - Apollyon.
    How was he lost?
    Ezekiel 28Eze 28:1 The word of the LORD came again unto me, saying, Eze 28:2 Son of man, say unto the prince of Tyrus, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Because thine heart is lifted up, and thou hast said, I am a God, I sit in the seat of God, in the midst of the seas; yet thou art a man, and not God, though thou set thine heart as the heart of God: Eze 28:3 Behold, thou art wiser than Daniel; there is no secret that they can hide from thee: Eze 28:4 With thy wisdom and with thine understanding thou hast gotten thee riches, and hast gotten gold and silver into thy treasures: Eze 28:5 By thy great wisdom and by thy traffick hast thou increased thy riches, and thine heart is lifted up because of thy riches: Eze 28:6 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Because thou hast set thine heart as the heart of God; Eze 28:7 Behold, therefore I will bring strangers upon thee, the terrible of the nations: and they shall draw their swords against the beauty of thy wisdom, and they shall defile thy brightness. Eze 28:8 They shall bring thee down to the pit, and thou shalt die the deaths of them that are slain in the midst of the seas. Eze 28:9 Wilt thou yet say before him that slayeth thee, I am God? but thou shalt be a man, and no God, in the hand of him that slayeth thee. Eze 28:10 Thou shalt die the deaths of the uncircumcised by the hand of strangers: for I have spoken it, saith the Lord GOD. Eze 28:11 Moreover the word of the LORD came unto me, saying, Eze 28:12 Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty. Eze 28:13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created. Eze 28:14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire. Eze 28:15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee. Eze 28:16 By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire. Eze 28:17 Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee. Eze 28:18 Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee. Eze 28:19 All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more. Eze 28:20 Again the word of the LORD came unto me, saying, Eze 28:21 Son of man, set thy face against Zidon, and prophesy against it, Eze 28:22 And say, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against thee, O Zidon; and I will be glorified in the midst of thee: and they shall know that I am the LORD, when I shall have executed judgments in her, and shall be sanctified in her. Eze 28:23 For I will send into her pestilence, and blood into her streets; and the wounded shall be judged in the midst of her by the sword upon her on every side; and they shall know that I am the LORD. Eze 28:24 And there shall be no more a pricking brier unto the house of Israel, nor any grieving thorn of all that are round about them, that despised them; and they shall know that I am the Lord GOD. Eze 28:25 Thus saith the Lord GOD; When I shall have gathered the house of Israel from the people among whom they are scattered, and shall be sanctified in them in the sight of the heathen, then shall they dwell in their land that I have given to my servant Jacob. Eze 28:26 And they shall dwell safely therein, and shall build houses, and plant vineyards; yea, they shall dwell with confidence, when I have executed judgments upon all those that despise them round about them; and they shall know that I am the LORD their God.
     
  12. tomwebster

    tomwebster New Member

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    One more (honest) question Kriss- would you really put it past the Judge of all (Jesus) to tell ones outcome before judgment day?
    In the case of Satan, YES! Satan was judged in the first earth age.
     
  13. Christina

    Christina New Member

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    (waquinas;57857)
    actually I said we cannot know. However, again "better he never be born" does not sound like a good thing to me.Back to John recording Jesus prayer for his disciples. How in the middle of that can we seem Him switching to speaking of Satan? How is it possible that Satan be counted amoung those He gave the Word to and who "kept it"?
    You are misreading the verse he is saying None is lost .......except the son of Pertion (who is not counted) that is Satan he isnt switching he is reassuring them that none of them are lost only One is already lost and that one is Satan.If he didnt make the qualification for Satan that statement would be a lie... because Satan was already Judged into Perdition ..... So if he had just said None are Lost it would have been untrue One was lost Satan ...
     
  14. waquinas

    waquinas New Member

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    My point was missed I think. But if Jesus is not switching to talking about Satan in his prayer, then we still have to ask how it is possible that Jesus, during His ministry (as that is what the rest of the prayer referes to - people that kept His Word), how is it possible that one of those individuals that KEPT JESUS WORD was Satan? That just makes no sense to me.
     
  15. tomwebster

    tomwebster New Member

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    (waquinas;57862)
    My point was missed I think. But if Jesus is not switching to talking about Satan in his prayer, then we still have to ask how it is possible that Jesus, during His ministry (as that is what the rest of the prayer referes to - people that kept His Word), how is it possible that one of those individuals that KEPT JESUS WORD was Satan? That just makes no sense to me.
    Guess you need to figure out who Satan is. Did you read about him in Eze 28? He knows well the Word of God, remember how he misquoted it when he tried to temp Christ?
     
  16. MyTwoCents

    MyTwoCents New Member

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    "but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled"......which scripture?Reading it in context, it is clear this prayer is exclusively about the 12 disciples, and I'm going to go back on my original post about this because I feel corrected.As much as the "son of perdition" is mentioned in the bible as being the beast, this is almost surely talking about Judas IMO. Sorry, I don't have scripture to back it up, I'm just praying that I may read the Word with understanding, which comes from God, and it seems pretty clear he is talking about 12 people that he spent his ministry with. He was not praying for the world, he was praying for these 12 guys here. It can seem he might be praying about all of his followers in the future also, but he follows up with a seperate prayer for everyone else. Seems pretty clear to me...
     
  17. Jordan

    Jordan Active Member

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    (MyTwoCents;57872)
    "but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled"......which scripture?Reading it in context, it is clear this prayer is exclusively about the 12 disciples, and I'm going to go back on my original post about this because I feel corrected.As much as the "son of perdition" is mentioned in the bible as being the beast, this is almost surely talking about Judas IMO. Sorry, I don't have scripture to back it up, I'm just praying that I may read the Word with understanding, which comes from God, and it seems pretty clear he is talking about 12 people that he spent his ministry with. He was not praying for the world, he was praying for these 12 guys here. It can seem he might be praying about all of his followers in the future also, but he follows up with a seperate prayer for everyone else. Seems pretty clear to me...
    Judas being the son of perdition? Incorrect, because he is human and does not have full knowledge of Word of God at all. One who has full knowledge of Word of God besides Christ is Satan.John 17:12 - While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.EqualsEzekiel 28:18 - Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.Why?II Thessalonians 2:3-4 - Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.EqualsEzekiel 28:2 - Son of man, say unto the prince of Tyrus, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Because thine heart is lifted up, and thou hast said, I am a God, I sit in the seat of God, in the midst of the seas; yet thou art a man, and not God, though thou set thine heart as the heart of God: Ezekiel 28:6 - Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Because thou hast set thine heart as the heart of God;
     
  18. waquinas

    waquinas New Member

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    (tomwebster;57863)
    Guess you need to figure out who Satan is. Did you read about him in Eze 28? He knows well the Word of God, remember how he misquoted it when he tried to temp Christ?
    Knowing how to use the Word to his advantage and saying you understand Jesus in a prayer to be thanking God for giving him someone like Satan who has kept His Word are two different things.The other problem being raised against people agreeing with my view that it is being seen as unreasonable by the opposing view that "son of perdition" clearly does not always refer to the same person (in our view). There is nothing unreasonable about a phrase or word referring to different things or people in the Bible. That would be why, as mytwocents points out, that people keep saying John 17 must be taken in context rather than using the one verse to claim Jesus is praying about Satan. In context it makes no sense to say "son of perdition" here refers to Satan or the anti-Christ.
     
  19. tomwebster

    tomwebster New Member

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    (waquinas;57882)
    Knowing how to use the Word to his advantage and saying you understand Jesus in a prayer to be thanking God for giving him someone like Satan who has kept His Word are two different things.
    Where does it say Satan "Kept the Word"????? Certainly not in verse 6.
    The other problem being raised against people agreeing with my view that it is being seen as unreasonable by the opposing view that "son of perdition" clearly does not always refer to the same person (in our view).
    but the son of perdition; The word "THE" indicates that Christ is referring to the same being. THE is a definite article.
    There is nothing unreasonable about a phrase or word referring to different things or people in the Bible. That would be why, as mytwocents points out, that people keep saying John 17 must be taken in context rather than using the one verse to claim Jesus is praying about Satan. In context it makes no sense to say "son of perdition" here refers to Satan or the anti-Christ.
    "son of perdition" see the above.
     
  20. logabe

    logabe Active Member

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    In order to understand the son of perdition, you must understand that God has vessels of honor and vessels of dishonor for the purpose of His Plan. Example, God had to harden Pharaoh's heart several times so he could do God's Will (Exodus 11:9-10). Notice the reason why God hardened Pharoah's heart. So his wonders shall be multiplied in the land of Egypt. How can that be fair? That's what Paul said in (Romans 9:18-19) Why does He yet find fault? Paul was saying, Pharaoh didn't have a choice so how could that be fair. He had to say no to Moses because it was the will of God.Logabe
     
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