Soul Sleep yes or no?

[TheHC]

Thanks - I looked up those references. They're solid support for the idea of continuing soul-sleep.

I think perhaps my bickering with Aunty has obscured my position - which is that I-don't-know. There are certainly verses that support soul-sleep, but there are also verses that seem to indicate some level of consciousness from the dead.

All I ask for is that Christians don't exclude one another based on a doctrine which isn't necessarily clear from Scripture. Whatever one believes, we will all find out one day... whether at death or at the resurrection.

What you said, about “all” finding out “one day”…. of course, I believe it will be at the Resurrection, but I agree.

When you keep in mind who the Bible says is really controlling the world, at 1John 5:19, Revelation 12:9, et.al., Jehovah is aware of the extent of their influence. Since He’s “merciful and gracious” (Exodus 34:6), Jehovah always looks at the heart, people’s real motives.

And here’s a thought that you might find interesting: the judgement that both Jesus & Paul mentioned @ John 5:28,29 & Acts 24:15? It’s not about what the unrighteous ones did in the past. Death was the payment for that (Romans 6:7). No, these ones will be judged after their resurrection, after all misleading influences have been removed. Their judgement will be based on how they behave at that future time, knowing all things accurately.

Does that not display loving concern on the part of our Father, Jehovah, and His Son Jesus?

 

[Wick Stick]

Because God is Sovereign and has dominion over all that exists.

God can do what He wants, but it appears that what He wants is to work THROUGH people, not around them.

 

[Wick Stick]

And here’s a thought that you might find interesting: the judgement that both Jesus & Paul mentioned @ John 5:28,29 & Acts 24:15? It’s not about what the unrighteous ones did in the past. Death was the payment for that (Romans 6:7). No, these ones will be judged after their resurrection, after all misleading influences have been removed. Their judgement will be based on how they behave at that future time, knowing all things accurately.

Does that not display loving concern on the part of our Father, Jehovah, and His Son Jesus?

The highlighted bit (above) seems wrong. The verse you cited in support literally says it IS about what they've done in the past:

Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation. John 5:28,19

 

[Aunty Jane]

The highlighted bit (above) seems wrong. The verse you cited in support literally says it IS about what they've done in the past:

Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation. John 5:28,19

It’s all in the way you understand scripture and where the doctrines of Christendom have altered the meaning of many scriptures. The same was true of the Pharisees...they taught from God’s word but messed up the interpretation to suit their own beliefs, which led to the adoption of traditions and teachings that were out of harmony with the very scripture they claimed to teach... (Matt 15:7-9) It invalidated their worship.

English (mis)translations of the Bible contributed more to the confusion.

The resurrections that Jesus spoke of in John 5:82-29 mean something completely different to what many have been taught by Christendom.....first of all, there are not two resurrections to different destinations...all are called from the same place...”their graves”.

In order for them to be called from their graves, the dead must all still be in them......secondly, Jesus indicated that this was to take place at a future time “the hour is coming” which puts the immortal soul teaching in the trash where it belongs. The dead have not gone anywhere, they sleep in death until it is time for them to be resurrected. That “hour” will not come until all that is written about the end of this current world system, when all its wickedness is finished, and God’s kingdom rules this earth. (“Thy kingdom come, thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven”.)

The translation you used talks about “damnation” which is a bad translation of a word that means “judgment”. The two classes of people resurrected are separated by what they did in their past....whether they were faithful to God or not. A vast majority of humans who have ever lived were not exposed to the God of Israel unless they had direct dealings with them.

Most have died without any knowledge of God or his Christ and therefore died in ignorance. Many served false gods and as a result participated in bloodshed and conquest. So in the resurrection, since God holds ignorance against no one, these will get a second chance to get to know the true God and to adjust their ways and thinking to align with his. These “unrighteousness” ones will have a thousand years to prove their worth to God, which the “righteous” have already done.

“The god of this world” (2 Cor 4:3-4) is responsible for the ignorance that has afflicted so many in history past, but God is not unjust, so he will give those ignorant ones an opportunity, in a period of “judgment” that will follow their resurrection, so that none will ever be able to say that God’s justice is not fair.

There are two destinations for the dead according to the Bible......the grave (sheol/hades) and Gehenna (not hell but eternal death) Only God knows who he has placed in Gehenna. These are the ones who knew God but opposed him in their conduct....like the Pharisees (Matt 23:33) These have proven by their conduct that they are unworthy of a resurrection. They have opposed God outright and denied the operation of his spirit. God has no need to punish them further...eternal death is enough....yet for some humans, it isn’t.

The Jews knew what Gehenna meant because the resurrection was important to them......being remembered in the resurrection meant burial in a clearly marked tomb with one’s name and lineage inscribed on it. Those considered unworthy of a decent burial were cast into the flames of Gehenna...which was Jerusalem’s garbage dump, where the fires were kept burning day and night by the addition of brimstone (Sulfur)...what the flames missed, the maggots finished off...that is what became Christendom’s “hell”. It was no such thing....just simply a symbol of eternal death.

So the scripture you quoted, doesn’t mean what many have been taught about the dead.

 

[Wick Stick]

So the scripture you quoted, doesn’t mean what many have been taught about the dead.

Shall we look at it?

28 μὴ   θαυμάζετε τοῦτο ὅτι          ἔρχεται    ὥρα ἐν ᾗ        πάντες οἱ    ἐν τοῖς μνημείοις ἀκούσονται τῆς φωνῆς αὐτοῦ
28 Not wonder      at-this because is-coming hour in which each     that in the  graves       shall-hear     the voice    of-him

29 καὶ ἐκπορεύσονται οἱ      τὰ   ἀγαθὰ ποιήσαντες  εἰς   ἀνάστασιν   ζωῆς    οἱ       δὲ    τὰ φαῦλα πράξαντες εἰς ἀνάστασιν       κρίσεως
29 and shall-go-out     those the good   having-done into resurrection of-life  those but the worthless acting into   resurrection     of-condemnation

κρίσις (krisis) is indeed judgment - but it's only judgment against, and it carries an idea of the condemned being carried away.

 

[TheHC]

The highlighted bit (above) seems wrong. The verse you cited in support literally says it IS about what they've done in the past:

Then why bother resurrecting them? (Leave them “impotent in death.” Proverbs 2:18)

No, those who are dead in Sheol have been “acquitted / freed from sin.” Romans 6:7.

Once a person is acquitted of a crime, they are not still held accountable, are they?

EDIT:

I may have misunderstood your meaning…
Yes, they will be considered as in the unrighteous category…. But their Judgment will be from the actions after their resurrection, which you could call their second chance.


You don’t see the mercy & justice in that?

 

[Aunty Jane]

Shall we look at it?

Of course.....I love to do research...

28 μὴ   θαυμάζετε τοῦτο ὅτι          ἔρχεται    ὥρα ἐν ᾗ        πάντες οἱ    ἐν τοῖς μνημείοις ἀκούσονται τῆς φωνῆς αὐτοῦ
28 Not wonder      at-this because is-coming hour in which each     that in the  graves       shall-hear     the voice    of-him

29 καὶ ἐκπορεύσονται οἱ      τὰ   ἀγαθὰ ποιήσαντες  εἰς   ἀνάστασιν   ζωῆς    οἱ       δὲ    τὰ φαῦλα πράξαντες εἰς ἀνάστασιν       κρίσεως
29 and shall-go-out     those the good   having-done into resurrection of-life  those but the worthless acting into   resurrection     of-condemnation

κρίσις (krisis) is indeed judgment - but it's only judgment against, and it carries an idea of the condemned being carried away.

From Strongs Concordance....

“κρίσις, κρίσεως, ἡ, the Sept. for דִּין, רִיב (a suit), but chiefly for מִשְׁפָּט; in Greek writings ((from Aeschylus and Herodotus down))
1. a separating, sundering, separation; a trial, contest.
2. selection.
3. judgment; i. e. opinion or decision given concerning anything, especially concerning justice and injustice, right and wrong”.

So yes, “krisis” means judgment and if you look at the way this word is rendered in other verses it always has to do with judgment or justice. How is God’s justice rendered in the case of the unrighteous ones? They are resurrected with a clean slate.....they have paid the highest penalty for any crime and are raised with an opportunity to prove themselves worthy to become human citizens of God’s kingdom. How is that unfair?

Where does the idea of “the condemned being carried away” come from?.....they are not condemned unless they fail to obey God and his appointed king. If they abuse their free will, and disobey their Sovereign, then there will be no place for them.

All God has ever asked of his children is that they obey him, not because they are forced to, but because they want to, out of love and appreciation for all that he has done for them.....it is all he requires....and no one can force or coerce someone to love them...it has to come from the heart, which God can read like a book.

 

[Ritajanice]

As a Born Again, I believe that as soon as this earthly body dies, my spirit will be reunited back to my Father God...my spirit will go immediately back to God from where it came.

I also Praise God that i have been reconciled back to God on the earth today, as in, I know him in my spirit, when he made me “ Born Of The Spirit “...

 

[Wick Stick]

From Strongs Concordance....

“κρίσις, κρίσεως, ἡ, the Sept. for דִּין, רִיב (a suit), but chiefly for מִשְׁפָּט; in Greek writings ((from Aeschylus and Herodotus down))
1. a separating, sundering, separation; a trial, contest.
2. selection.
3. judgment; i. e. opinion or decision given concerning anything, especially concerning justice and injustice, right and wrong”.

So yes, “krisis” means judgment and if you look at the way this word is rendered in other verses it always has to do with judgment or justice. How is God’s justice rendered in the case of the unrighteous ones? They are resurrected with a clean slate.....they have paid the highest penalty for any crime and are raised with an opportunity to prove themselves worthy to become human citizens of God’s kingdom. How is that unfair?

No, no, no... judgment and justice are opposites. Two sides of the same coin, but "justice" is when the judge rules in your favor, and "judgment" is when he rules against you. Those are Biblical definitions; not modern English.

Where does the idea of “the condemned being carried away” come from?.....

It's the primary definition of the word. You posted it yourself (above) - a separating, sundering, separation. It is used for legal judgment in the sense of "bailiff, take him away!"

 

[Aunty Jane]

No, no, no... judgment and justice are opposites. Two sides of the same coin, but "justice" is when the judge rules in your favor, and "judgment" is when he rules against you. Those are Biblical definitions; not modern English.


It's the primary definition of the word. You posted it yourself (above) - a separating, sundering, separation. It is used for legal judgment in the sense of "bailiff, take him away!"

You misunderstand…..in the general resurrection of the dead, (John 5:28-29) no one is held accountable for past sins unless God discerns that they are incorrigibly wicked. The destination for the wicked is “Gehenna” (eternal death…no resurrection, which means they are judged already) whereas those who are “unrighteous” are not necessarily wicked, but could have been acting in ignorance, never knowing the true God or the truth of God’s word. God does not desire even the death of the wicked, but because of the righteous, he must remove those who would be a bad influence on others.

This period of judgment is to determine what is in their heart and whether they can be transformed by accepting God’s truth in a world where no wickedness will be practiced….there will be no satan or demons to interfere with God’s purpose to fill the world with righteous, reliable and faithfully obedient children of God, like Adam and Eve were supposed to be. What God began in Genesis is given back to mankind in Revelation, (Rev 21:2-4) thanks to the efforts of God and his obedient son in rescuing us from the stain of sin and the sting of death…..everlasting life for humans in paradise on earth was God’s first purpose….it never went away. (Isa 55:11)

 

[Aunty Jane]

As a Born Again, I believe that as soon as this earthly body dies, my spirit will be reunited back to my Father God...my spirit will go immediately back to God from where it came.

I also Praise God that i have been reconciled back to God on the earth today, as in, I know him in my spirit, when he made me “ Born Of The Spirit “...

Why were you “born again”….what is the purpose of it, and what does it mean in the big picture? Why does anyone need to be “born again”? How is it connected to the Kingdom?….as Jesus told Nicodemus?

 

[Ritajanice]

Why were you “born again”….what is the purpose of it, and what does it mean in the big picture? Why does anyone need to be “born again”? How is it connected to the Kingdom?….as Jesus told Nicodemus?

I’ve already posted the answer to this question you have asked countless times......if you aren’t Born Again, then you couldn’t possibly understand,......we are on completely different levels of spiritual understanding........that’s why I ignore you.....you are entitled to post your opinion as am I....

Jesus said you must be “ Born Again “ to see the Kingdom Of God.....ask him not me.....as I’ve said, I’ve explained this countless times to you..and I’m certainly not arguing with you....I’m Born Of The Spirit and will NEVER deny that I’m Born Again.......you can’t understand the word without the Holy Spirit making us Born Again....the word is spiritual, therefore can only be understood in the Spirit.... therefore.

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◄ 1 Corinthians 2:14 ►

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Audio Crossref Comment Greek Verse (Click for Chapter) New International Version The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit. New Living Translation But people who aren’t spiritual can’t receive these truths from God’s Spirit. It all sounds foolish to them and they can’t understand it, for only those who are spiritual can understand what the Spirit means. English Standard Version The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned. Berean Standard Bible The natural man does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God. For they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned. Berean Literal Bible But the natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God; for they are foolishness to him, and he is not able to understand them, because spiritually they are discerned. King James Bible But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

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◄ 1 Corinthians 2:13 ►

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Bible verses related to The Plans God Has For Us from the King James Version (KJV) by Relevance​

- Sort By Book Order




Jeremiah 29:11 - For I know the thoughts that I think toward you, saith the LORD, thoughts of peace, and not of evil, to give you an expected end.

Proverbs 3:5-6 - Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding. (Read More...)

Romans 8:28 - And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

Ecclesiastes 3:1-22 - To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven: (Read More...)

Proverbs 16:9 - A man's heart deviseth his way: but the LORD directeth his steps.

Isaiah 58:11 - And the LORD shall guide thee continually, and satisfy thy soul in drought, and make fat thy bones: and thou shalt be like a watered garden, and like a spring of water, whose waters fail not.

Jeremiah 1:5 - Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

Proverbs 3:5 - Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.

Romans 12:2 - And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

Psalms 27:14 - Wait on the LORD: be of good courage, and he shall strengthen thine heart: wait, I say, on the LORD.

Psalms 32:8 - I will instruct thee and teach thee in the way which thou shalt go: I will guide thee with mine eye.

Isaiah 40:31 - But they that wait upon the LORD shall renew their strength; they shall mount up with wings as eagles; they shall run, and not be weary; and they shall walk, and not faint.

1 Corinthians 2:9 - But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.

Proverbs 19:21 - There are many devices in a man's heart; nevertheless the counsel of the LORD, that shall stand.

Psalms 37:23 - The steps of a good man are ordered by the LORD: and he delighteth in his way.

John 15:7 - If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.

Audio Crossref Comment Greek Verse (Click for Chapter) New International Version This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, explaining spiritual realities with Spirit-taught words. New Living Translation When we tell you these things, we do not use words that come from human wisdom. Instead, we speak words given to us by the Spirit, using the Spirit’s words to explain spiritual truths. English Standard Version And we impart this in words not taught by human wisdom but taught by the Spirit, interpreting spiritual truths to those who are spiritual. Berean Standard Bible And this is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom, but in words taught by the Spirit, expressing spiritual truths in spiritual words. Berean Literal Bible which also we speak, not in words taught of human wisdom, but in those taught of the Spirit, communicating spiritual things by spiritual means.

 

[JBO]

I’ve already posted the answer to this question you have asked countless times......if you aren’t Born Again, then you couldn’t possibly understand,......we are on completely different levels of spiritual understanding........that’s why I ignore you.....you are entitled to post your opinion as am I....

Jesus said you must be “ Born Again “ to see the Kingdom Of God.....ask him not me.....as I’ve said, I’ve explained this countless times to you..and I’m certainly not arguing with you....I’m Born Of The Spirit and will NEVER deny that I’m Born Again.......you can’t understand the word without the Holy Spirit making us Born Again....the word is spiritual, therefore can only be understood in the Spirit.... therefore.

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◄ 1 Corinthians 2:14 ►

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Audio Crossref Comment Greek Verse (Click for Chapter) New International Version The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit. New Living Translation But people who aren’t spiritual can’t receive these truths from God’s Spirit. It all sounds foolish to them and they can’t understand it, for only those who are spiritual can understand what the Spirit means. English Standard Version The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned. Berean Standard Bible The natural man does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God. For they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned. Berean Literal Bible But the natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God; for they are foolishness to him, and he is not able to understand them, because spiritually they are discerned. King James Bible But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

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◄ 1 Corinthians 2:13 ►

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Audio Crossref Comment Greek Verse (Click for Chapter) New International Version This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, explaining spiritual realities with Spirit-taught words. New Living Translation When we tell you these things, we do not use words that come from human wisdom. Instead, we speak words given to us by the Spirit, using the Spirit’s words to explain spiritual truths. English Standard Version And we impart this in words not taught by human wisdom but taught by the Spirit, interpreting spiritual truths to those who are spiritual. Berean Standard Bible And this is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom, but in words taught by the Spirit, expressing spiritual truths in spiritual words. Berean Literal Bible which also we speak, not in words taught of human wisdom, but in those taught of the Spirit, communicating spiritual things by spiritual means.

Colossians 2:11-13 says that being born again occurred in baptism through faith in God.

 

[Ritajanice]

Being baptised in the Spirit is a one time event, only God can Baptise us via his Spirit, he brings us to believe in Jesus and gives us God given faith that’s how we know we are Born Of The Spirit....it’s not something you read, it’s a supernatural Living spiritual rebirth....can’t be explained how God does it, his Spirit is like the wind, you can’t see being Born Again as the Spirit testifies with our spirit that we are Gods children....we are Gods children by his Spirit.....you can’t see the spiritual rebirth as the Spirit testifies with our spirit....therefore spiritual as Gods word is spiritual....it cannot be understood in the carnal mind or understanding.
..it can only be understood when “ Spirit gives birth to spirit “
Without God given Faith and receiving his Holy Spirit into our heart when he makes us Born Again...you can’t know him in Spirit and as his word says, without the Spirit we are none of his..period.

 

[Aunty Jane]

Being baptised in the Spirit is a one time event, only God can Baptise us via his Spirit, he brings us to believe in Jesus and gives us God given faith that’s how we know we are Born Of The Spirit....it’s not something you read, it’s a supernatural Living spiritual rebirth....can’t be explained how God does it, his Spirit is like the wind, you can’t see being Born Again as the Spirit testifies with our spirit that we are Gods children....we are Gods children by his Spirit.....you can’t see the spiritual rebirth as the Spirit testifies with our spirit....therefore spiritual as Gods word is spiritual....it cannot be understood in the carnal mind or understanding.
..it can only be understood when “ Spirit gives birth to spirit “
Without God given Faith and receiving his Holy Spirit into our heart when he makes us Born Again...you can’t know him in Spirit and as his word says, without the Spirit we are none of his..period.

And after all that, you did not answer my questions as before. If YOU can’t explain what being “born again” means in connection with the Kingdom of God...that is where you fall down. It can’t be a mystery to YOU even if it is to me. All I have heard from you is a fairy story of something that “happened” to you to convince you that you are of that ‘class’ of Christians.....is that what being “born again” actually means?

It isn’t something that happens to bring you to Christ and to give you faith.....becoming a believer is not what it means. The apostles were believers for three and a half years in close company with the son of God, but being “born again” did not happen to them until Pentecost. So what happened at Pentecost that was a game changer for them?

It’s very convenient to say that you can’t understand with a carnal mind.....but it’s you who needs to convey what that means to others who do have a carnal mind......the whole purpose of being a Christian is to “make disciples” for Christ.....it was a command to do so (Matt 28:19-20) so that the whole world would get a witness...”to the most distant part of the earth”. It doesn’t mean being a member of an exclusive club who have no idea what their choosing means, or what is expected of them in the role they are chosen for....

I have asked you before ...”what is God’s Kingdom?” Can you tell me what it is that “born again” Christians “see” that those not “born again”, can’t? And what the purpose of this rebirth is in connection with God’s Kingdom? You have snatches of a story where all the interconnecting pieces are missing. What is your role as one who is “born again”?
The Bible tells us, so why can’t you? Do you see why I ask?

The most fundamental information a Christian can have is knowing what God’s kingdom is, what it will do, and how it “comes” as Jesus said in the Lord’s Prayer so that God’s will is “done on earth as it is in heaven”.....It’s “the good news of the kingdom” that is to be preached right up until “the end”. (Matt 24:14) Please tell us what that “good news” (gospel) is..... because you can post scripture till the cows come home.....but unless you can explain them, they are just words to those who may be just starting their journey. If nothing else, I want to move you to study God’s word so as to answer my questions for yourself.

 

[Ritajanice]

And after all that, you did not answer my questions as before. If YOU can’t explain what being “born again” means in connection with the Kingdom of God...that is where you fall down. It can’t be a mystery to YOU even if it is to me. All I have heard from you is a fairy story of something that “happened” to you to convince you that you are of that ‘class’ of Christians.....is that what being “born again” actually means?

It isn’t something that happens to bring you to Christ and to give you faith.....becoming a believer is not what it means. The apostles were believers for three and a half years in close company with the son of God, but being “born again” did not happen to them until Pentecost. So what happened at Pentecost that was a game changer for them?

It’s very convenient to say that you can’t understand with a carnal mind.....but it’s you who needs to convey what that means to others who do have a carnal mind......the whole purpose of being a Christian is to “make disciples” for Christ.....it was a command to do so (Matt 28:19-20) so that the whole world would get a witness...”to the most distant part of the earth”. It doesn’t mean being a member of an exclusive club who have no idea what their choosing means, or what is expected of them in the role they are chosen for....

I have asked you before ...”what is God’s Kingdom?” Can you tell me what it is that “born again” Christians “see” that those not “born again”, can’t? And what the purpose of this rebirth is in connection with God’s Kingdom? You have snatches of a story where all the interconnecting pieces are missing. What is your role as one who is “born again”?
The Bible tells us, so why can’t you? Do you see why I ask?

The most fundamental information a Christian can have is knowing what God’s kingdom is, what it will do, and how it “comes” as Jesus said in the Lord’s Prayer so that God’s will is “done on earth as it is in heaven”.....It’s “the good news of the kingdom” that is to be preached right up until “the end”. (Matt 24:14) Please tell us what that “good news” (gospel) is..... because you can post scripture till the cows come home.....but unless you can explain them, they are just words to those who may be just starting their journey. If nothing else, I want to move you to study God’s word so as to answer my questions for yourself.

Romans 8​

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King James Version​

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8 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.
18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.
19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?
25 But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.
26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.
27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.
28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?
32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?
33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.
34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.
35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.
37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.
38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.





As I’ve already explained, I’m here to “ Glorify “ God..and will continue to do so, as and when I’m prompted to do so by his Spirit..I’m “ Born Again “, you have openly admitted you are not, you don’t understand what it means...a carnal mind is void of the Spirit in their heart/ spirit.....therefore I have posted scripture to support why you don’t understand..., I understand your reply and was expecting it...it’s always the same repetitive reply, it lacks spiritual knowledge, and is your “ own” version of Gods word....it’s not Spirit led,imo...

....I’m not interested in listening to a person going through God’s word via their “ own understanding “...it’s boring...I can only learn in the Spirit and by the Spirit.....enjoy the rest of your day.
PS...I’m “ Born Again”..I am not a Christian.being Born Again can only be testified to our spirit...by the Holy Spirit..it’s biblical ...only non understandable to those who aren’t...and completely understandable ....you can’t make someone understand spiritual matters, therefore best to walk away from them...and pray that God makes them Born Again by his Spirit....if it’s his will then it will be done.

Gods word says about arguing..it’s not edifying or fruitful, ...threads have already been locked in the past because of you and i arguing ...I am now going to hit the ignore button.took me a long time to walk away from arguing....best thing I’ve ever done and Praise God he at last got that message through ( his Living word) to my heart/ spirit.....only the Spirit, Gods word can penetrate the heart of his child..for them to “ HEAR” his “ Living” word, ( he speaks directly to our spirit) and when his word does, we are then without excuses...I’d be the biggest fool if I continued to ignore his word , ..bye bye.

 

[The Learner]

Of course.....I love to do research...


From Strongs Concordance....

“κρίσις, κρίσεως, ἡ, the Sept. for דִּין, רִיב (a suit), but chiefly for מִשְׁפָּט; in Greek writings ((from Aeschylus and Herodotus down))
1. a separating, sundering, separation; a trial, contest.
2. selection.
3. judgment; i. e. opinion or decision given concerning anything, especially concerning justice and injustice, right and wrong”.

So yes, “krisis” means judgment and if you look at the way this word is rendered in other verses it always has to do with judgment or justice. How is God’s justice rendered in the case of the unrighteous ones? They are resurrected with a clean slate.....they have paid the highest penalty for any crime and are raised with an opportunity to prove themselves worthy to become human citizens of God’s kingdom. How is that unfair?

Where does the idea of “the condemned being carried away” come from?.....they are not condemned unless they fail to obey God and his appointed king. If they abuse their free will, and disobey their Sovereign, then there will be no place for them.

All God has ever asked of his children is that they obey him, not because they are forced to, but because they want to, out of love and appreciation for all that he has done for them.....it is all he requires....and no one can force or coerce someone to love them...it has to come from the heart, which God can read like a book.

Purgatory comes to mind.

 

[The Learner]

No, no, no... judgment and justice are opposites. Two sides of the same coin, but "justice" is when the judge rules in your favor, and "judgment" is when he rules against you. Those are Biblical definitions; not modern English.


It's the primary definition of the word. You posted it yourself (above) - a separating, sundering, separation. It is used for legal judgment in the sense of "bailiff, take him away!"

Matthew 25:31-46

New Catholic Bible

​

31 The Solemn Judgment at the End of Time.[a]“When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on the throne of his glory. 32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will place the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.
34 “Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat; I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink; I was a stranger and you welcomed me; 36 I was naked and you clothed me; I was ill and you took care of me; I was in prison and you came to visit me.’
37 “Then the righteous will say to him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and give you something to eat, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you? 39 When did we see you ill or in prison and come to visit you?’ 40 And the King will answer, ‘Amen, I say to you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brethren of mine, you did for me.’
41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you accursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you did not give me anything to eat; I was thirsty and you did not give me anything to drink; 43 I was a stranger and you did not welcome me; I was naked and you did not give me any clothing; I was ill and in prison and you did not visit me.’
44 “Then they will ask him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or ill or in prison and not minister to you?’ 45 He will answer them, ‘Amen, I say to you, whatever you failed to do for one of the least of these brethren of mine, you failed to do for me.’ 46 And they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous will enter eternal life.”
Read full chapter

Footnotes​

1. Matthew 25:31 This passage constitutes the conclusion of the eschatological discourse with the description of the Last Judgment. In the second part of the great discourse (Mt 24:37), the individual judgment was repeatedly indicated. Now there comes before us the supreme Judge, Jesus Christ in glory, who at the end of time will judge all peoples, without distinction between Jew and Gentile, and will separate the good from the wicked in accord with everyone’s works.

 

[The Learner]

You misunderstand…..in the general resurrection of the dead, (John 5:28-29) no one is held accountable for past sins unless God discerns that they are incorrigibly wicked. The destination for the wicked is “Gehenna” (eternal death…no resurrection, which means they are judged already) whereas those who are “unrighteous” are not necessarily wicked, but could have been acting in ignorance, never knowing the true God or the truth of God’s word. God does not desire even the death of the wicked, but because of the righteous, he must remove those who would be a bad influence on others.

This period of judgment is to determine what is in their heart and whether they can be transformed by accepting God’s truth in a world where no wickedness will be practiced….there will be no satan or demons to interfere with God’s purpose to fill the world with righteous, reliable and faithfully obedient children of God, like Adam and Eve were supposed to be. What God began in Genesis is given back to mankind in Revelation, (Rev 21:2-4) thanks to the efforts of God and his obedient son in rescuing us from the stain of sin and the sting of death…..everlasting life for humans in paradise on earth was God’s first purpose….it never went away. (Isa 55:11)

Interresting, I cor 15 teaches all are raised with the same kind of body.

This is something JW's got almost right. It is a spiritual body with many phyiscal characterisics. We need only look at the Resurrected body of our Lord and Savior, JC..

 

[The Learner]

Why were you “born again”….what is the purpose of it, and what does it mean in the big picture? Why does anyone need to be “born again”? How is it connected to the Kingdom?….as Jesus told Nicodemus?

When one is born again, The Holy Spirit person indwells them --- they enter the Kingdom.