Soul Sleep yes or no?

[The Learner]

Colossians 2:11-13 says that being born again occurred in baptism through faith in God.

Colossians 2

New Catholic Bible

​

Chapter 2​

Closely United in Love.[a] 1 I want you to realize how greatly I am struggling for you as well as for those in Laodicea[b] and all the others who have never seen me face to face. 2 I want their hearts to be encouraged and united in love so that they may grow rich in their complete understanding as they come to the knowledge of the mystery of God, that is, Christ, 3 in whom are hidden all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge.
4 I am telling you all this so that no one may deceive you with deceptive arguments. 5 Even if I am not physically present to you, I am with you in spirit, and I rejoice to see your unity and the resolute firmness of your faith in Christ.

Instruction about Errors That Are Circulating​

Walk in Christ.[c] 6 Therefore, just as you received Christ Jesus the Lord, continue to walk in him. 7 Be rooted and built up in him, and remain established in the faith as you were taught, overflowing with thanksgiving. 8 Make sure that no one leads you astray with an empty and deceitful philosophy that depends on human tradition[d] and worldly principles, and not on Christ.
God Has Given You Life in Christ. 9 For it is in him that the entire fullness of deity dwells in bodily form,[e] 10 and you share this fullness in him who is the head of every ruler and power. 11 In him also you were circumcised, not with a physical circumcision but with a spiritual stripping away of the old nature with the circumcision of Christ.
12 When you were buried with him in baptism, you were also raised with him through faith in the power of God who raised him from the dead. 13 And even when you were dead in your sins and your flesh was uncircumcised, God gave you new life along with him. He has forgiven us all our sins, 14 erasing the record against us[f] with its decrees that are hostile to us. He set this aside, nailing it to the cross. 15 Disarming the rulers and powers, he made a public spectacle of them, parading them in his triumphal procession.
16 The Reality Is Christ.[g] Therefore, do not allow anyone to pass judgment on you in regard to what you eat or drink, or about the observance of Festivals, New Moons, or Sabbaths.[h] 17 These are only a shadow of what is to come. The reality is Christ.
18 Do not allow yourself to be declared disqualified by those who revel in false humility and worship angels and visions, their vanity foolishly inflated by a human way of thinking. 19 They are not united with the head, from whom the whole body, supported and held together by its ligaments and sinews, achieves the growth that comes from God.
20 Since you died with Christ to the elemental principles of this world, why are you living in the world as if you were subject to it? 21 “Do not handle!” “Do not taste!” “Do not touch!” 22 All this refers to things that perish as they are used. They are simply human commands and teachings. 23 Rules of this type indeed appear to be wise in promoting self-imposed piety, false humility, and harsh treatment of the body, but they are of no value in combating the flesh.

Footnotes​

1. Colossians 2:1 The Apostle draws his strength from faith, and believers draw their unity from that same faith: i.e., knowledge of the mystery of God, whose riches love will never cease uncovering. It is not a case of speculating about abstract ideas or empty words, but of recognizing the action of God in history and in the hearts of human beings—today as yesterday—so as to save them.
2. Colossians 2:1 Laodicea: a town about 11 miles away from Colossae; the Letter was to be read there, too (Col 4:16).
3. Colossians 2:6 Paul states that human laws, even the Law of Moses, could forbid sin but not overcome it; they drive human beings to sin and are like a sentence of death. We could imagine all sorts of hidden forces that might rule the world, but they can only add to the alienation of humans. Christ has liberated believers from this tyranny of observances and myths. In his Resurrection, he is the sole master through whom human beings are raised, and all the imaginable forces are subjected to him. For Christians, the conception of the world and life has changed; having been baptized, they share in the very life of God. This is a much more profound turnaround than the ancient circumcision. Why then do the Colossians insist on seeking salvation in material observances, human theories, and myths?
4. Colossians 2:8 Human tradition: literally, “philosophy,” a word that occurs only here in the New Testament. In this context, it refers not to systematic thought but to religious speculations.
5. Colossians 2:9 The entire fullness of deity dwells in bodily form: i.e., in the risen and glorified body of Christ.
6. Colossians 2:14 Record against us: the reference is perhaps to the Mosaic Law. The latter pointed out the way of the commandments but did not give the power to observe; as a result, it became the source of indictment.
7. Colossians 2:16 Certain Colossian Christians of Jewish extraction minutely observed the customs of the Jewish religion, others were partial to visions and revelations, and still others gave themselves over to ascetical practices. All of them acted as if their method was necessary for salvation. But wasn’t it Christ who saved them and who enabled his Church to live as a new seed in the world? To believe is to be set free and to dedicate oneself entirely to the Lord. What can human rites, exercises, usages, and theories do in this respect?
8. Colossians 2:16 Observance of Festivals, New Moons, or Sabbaths: observances that were in vogue on a yearly, monthly, or weekly basis. These were usually reckoned according to heavenly bodies, sun, moon, and stars (see Col 2:8).

 

[The Learner]

Romans 8​

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King James Version​

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8 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.
18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.
19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?
25 But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.
26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.
27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.
28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?
32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?
33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.
34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.
35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.
37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.
38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.





As I’ve already explained, I’m here to “ Glorify “ God..and will continue to do so, as and when I’m prompted to do so by his Spirit..I’m “ Born Again “, you have openly admitted you are not, you don’t understand what it means...a carnal mind is void of the Spirit in their heart/ spirit.....therefore I have posted scripture to support why you don’t understand..., I understand your reply and was expecting it...it’s always the same repetitive reply, it lacks spiritual knowledge, and is your “ own” version of Gods word....it’s not Spirit led,imo...

....I’m not interested in listening to a person going through God’s word via their “ own understanding “...it’s boring...I can only learn in the Spirit and by the Spirit.....enjoy the rest of your day.
PS...I’m “ Born Again”..I am not a Christian.being Born Again can only be testified to our spirit...by the Holy Spirit..it’s biblical ...only non understandable to those who aren’t...and completely understandable ....you can’t make someone understand spiritual matters, therefore best to walk away from them...and pray that God makes them Born Again by his Spirit....if it’s his will then it will be done.

Gods word says about arguing..it’s not edifying or fruitful, ...threads have already been locked in the past because of you and i arguing ...I am now going to hit the ignore button.took me a long time to walk away from arguing....best thing I’ve ever done and Praise God he at last got that message through ( his Living word) to my heart/ spirit.....only the Spirit, Gods word can penetrate the heart of his child..for them to “ HEAR” his “ Living” word, ( he speaks directly to our spirit) and when his word does, we are then without excuses...I’d be the biggest fool if I continued to ignore his word , ..bye bye.

 

[Hobie]

Yes, I am proposing an interpretation. The Bible does not lay out 'what-happens-between-death-and-the-judgment' very clearly. All the positions are based on someone's interpretation of the text.


I agree with you on this point and was not suggesting otherwise.

Phaedo is the name of Plato's work outlining the immortality and non-corporeality of the human soul in Greek thought.


The thing that appears NOWHERE in the Bible OR even in Greek philosophy or classical studies... is the idea of an "other reality." Even the Greeks who believed in a separate immortal soul did not assign it to some other realm, but to the heavens of THIS realm.


I don't think the Bible is clear at all with regards to thanatology. The whole Old Testament uniformly preaches Sheol, the pit where one ceases to exist. But the New Testament adopts much of the Greek idea of a layered underworld, with Hades and Tartarus and Paradise and Outer Darkness and Gehenna and perhaps even an in-between place.

If you want a clear picture of Jewish beliefs on the afterlife in that era, the book you want is 1Enoch. There, 4 holding places exist - for the martyrs, for the righteous, for the wicked, and for those who were neither wicked nor righteous. According to Enoch, the martyrs receive a physical resurrection before the White Throne judgment. The righteous go on to paradise after the Judgment, the wicked are purged before going on to non-existence, and the rest of the average people just go straight on into oblivion.


Which canon? The catholic church didn't officially declare it's canon til 1563 AD. The common canon of most Protestant churches didn't exist in present form til the 19th century. Perhaps you mean Athanasius' canon, or Origen's, or Jerome's?

There IS a reason why the book of Enoch wasn't included in those canons... it was lost to European civilization from the 1st century til the 19th century. However, it WAS part of the canon of the Coptic church from the 1st century onwards, appears to have been known to the Egyptian church, and copies were found in the Dead Sea Scrolls.


Yet the New Testament makes dozens of references to it.


The idea of a period of silence between the Old and New Testaments is FALSE - a bit of propaganda pushed by some who would like to ignore what came in between.


You do a lot of mansplaining for a woman.

You can't depend on Plato or any of the pagan Greek philosophy as that's what got Christians so confused in the first place..

 

[JBO]

All the positions are based on someone's interpretation of the text.

What doesn't?

 

[JBO]

I am not a Christian.

Then why are you even here on a Christian forum?

 

[Ritajanice]

View attachment 43371

Amen!!....a Born Again has been chosen by God all according to his purpose and plan...we are here to witness for God, the Holy Spirit is the witness , he uses us as his vessel...we just submit our will over to his will...all takes time to learn and understand.

God is our spiritual Father...everything is about God, Jesus, we are led by the Spirit, he is the revealer of spiritual knowledge ,in his word , our knowledge does not come from us, it comes from the Holly Spirit,....we learn to understand God’s word as we grow and mature, for we are Born Of The Spirit....a Born Again is biblical.....

As his word also says those of the carnal mind have no understanding of spiritual matters....therefore wouldn’t understand what “ Born Again “ means.....they have no knowledge of what the supernatural spiritual rebirth means....it would sound alien to them....as it did to me, before God made me Born Again.....

 

[JunChosen]

What exactly does the Bible say happens to us when we die? What does the Bible tell us directly rather than by suggestion or assertion?

For those who are in Christ Jesus, the Bible stipulates: "To be absent from the body is to present with the Lord." 2 Corinthians 5:8.
That is, there is a separation of body and spirit where the spirit goes to heaven to be with the Lord. while his body returns to the dust to await resurrection on the last day.

On the other hand, those NOT in Christ Jesus, their body, soul, and spirit will return to the dust. We read in Psalms 115:16-18
16 The heaven, [even] the heavens, [are] the LORD’S: but the earth hath he given to the children of men.
17 The dead (spiritually dead) praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence.
18 But we will bless the LORD from this time forth and for evermore. Praise the LORD.

To God Be The Glory

 

[Aunty Jane]

For those who are in Christ Jesus, the Bible stipulates: "To be absent from the body is to present with the Lord." 2 Corinthians 5:8.

Who was Paul talking about? All Christians? And was it an admission that some invisible part of man would leave the dead body to immediately be “present with the Lord” upon their death? If that is what you think Paul was saying, then you have swallowed a very big, but ancient LIE.

That is, there is a separation of body and spirit where the spirit goes to heaven to be with the Lord. while his body returns to the dust to await resurrection on the last day.

First we have to understand what this “spirit” is…..have you been led to believe that the soul and the spirit are one and the same thing? They are not. Go back to Genesis and see what God said about Adam….
Gen 1:17…
“And God went on to form the man out of dust from the ground and to blow into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living soul.”

Adam was not given a “soul” but “became” one when God started him breathing….the “spirit” (breath) is what animates a soul.

What happened next?…..
Gen 2:15-17…
”God took the man and settled him in the garden of Eʹden to cultivate it and to take care of it. 16 Jehovah God also gave this command to the man: “From every tree of the garden you may eat to satisfaction. 17 But as for the tree of the knowledge of good and bad, you must not eat from it, for in the day you eat from it you will certainly die.”

What was death? Did Adam know what God meant? Was he to die, or was he warned about two opposite destinations that awaited him?
If he obeyed God and refused to eat of the one tree in the garden that God had claimed as his own, would he have died at all? Was he told about heaven if he was good, or hell if he was bad?
What was “the tree of life”? And why was it placed as ‘off limits’ once the humans were evicted from the garden? They had the choice between life and death in the two trees that God had placed there.

Gen 3: 17-19….
“And to Adam he said: “Because you listened to your wife’s voice and ate from the tree concerning which I gave you this command, ‘You must not eat from it,’ cursed is the ground on your account. In pain you will eat its produce all the days of your life. 18 It will grow thorns and thistles for you, and you must eat the vegetation of the field. 19 In the sweat of your face you will eat bread until you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken. For dust you are and to dust you will return.”

What was the expectation, based on what God had told him? There is no mention in any verse of the Bible to indicate that some part of man survives death…..death is the very opposite of life. There is no heaven or hell and there never was.
Immortality of the soul was invented by the devil to counter God’s penalty of death. The devil told the woman..”you surely will not die”…..(but they eventually did within God’s counting of a “day” at 2 Pete 3:8) , and so has every human that has ever drawn breath.
Nothing survives death. (Eccl 9:5, 10)

On the other hand, those NOT in Christ Jesus, their body, soul, and spirit will return to the dust. We read in Psalms 115:16-18
16 The heaven, [even] the heavens, [are] the LORD’S: but the earth hath he given to the children of men.
17 The dead (spiritually dead) praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence.
18 But we will bless the LORD from this time forth and for evermore. Praise the LORD.

Is this what that Psalm is saying? Is this what the writer believed?
The ancient Jews had no belief in an immortal soul that left the body at death, because their scripture never mentioned life after death in the way it is taught in Christendom. Their belief was in “the resurrection”….not a continuation of life in some spiritual realm, but a restoration of life such as the ones Jesus and his apostles demonstrated.

The most famous of these was the raising of Lazarus from his tomb.
What does the account say?
John 11:11-14…
”After he said these things, he added: “Lazʹa·rus our friend has fallen asleep, but I am traveling there to awaken him.” 12 The disciples then said to him: “Lord, if he is sleeping, he will get well.” 13 Jesus, however, had spoken about his death. But they imagined he was speaking about taking rest in sleep. 14 Then Jesus said to them plainly: “Lazʹa·rus has died”.

Where did Jesus say Lazarus was? He had been dead for four days and his sister said that by now bodily decayed had begun. But also interesting is her statement about where she anticipated her brothers future to be…..
John 11: 21-24….
“Martha then said to Jesus: “Lord, if you had been here, my brother would not have died. 22 Yet even now I know that whatever you ask God for, God will give you.” 23 Jesus said to her: “Your brother will rise.” 24 Martha said to him: “I know he will rise in the resurrection on the last day.”

What is “the resurrection on the last day”? Jesus had mentioned this earlier in John 6:40….
“For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who recognizes the Son and exercises faith in him should have everlasting life, and I will resurrect him on the last day.”

So when is “the last day”? It is the thousand year reign of the Christ when he promised…
”Do not be amazed at this, for the hour is coming in which all those in the memorial tombs will hear his voice 29 and come out, those who did good things to a resurrection of life, and those who practiced vile things to a resurrection of judgment.”

The dead are to be raised from their tombs, but at a future time….they are not in heaven or hell, but merely “sleeping” in their graves awaiting the call to “come out”, as Jesus said of his friend, Lazarus.

The apostle Paul, (in the scripture you quoted) was not saying what you have been taught to believe….he was part of a specific group of Christians who are “chosen” (elected) for a role in heaven. These will be “kings and priests” who will rule with Christ during the thousand years it will take to “undo the works of the devil” here on earth. (Rev 20:6) It is during this time when the dead will rise but this is not “the first resurrection”….that takes place upon Christ’s return. He was to call them out of their graves to begin their assignments in heaven. (1 Thess 4:13-17) Kings need subjects and priests need sinner for whom to perform their priestly duties. There are no sinners in heaven…..and kings do not rule each other.

For the majority of mankind, everlasting life will be here on earth as God first purposed…..that will become their reality once released from the curse of sin and death….paradise will be restored as it was meant to be…and who would complain about that?
A return to this life with sin and all its associated troubles, including death, completely removed. (Rev 21:2-4)
It was what God purposed in the beginning, and he will restore it at the end. (Isa 55:11)

To God Be The Glory

Indeed…but truth must triumph over falsehood.…only then will God’s glory shine on the human race.

 

[Hobie]

What you said, about “all” finding out “one day”…. of course, I believe it will be at the Resurrection, but I agree.

When you keep in mind who the Bible says is really controlling the world, at 1John 5:19, Revelation 12:9, et.al., Jehovah is aware of the extent of their influence. Since He’s “merciful and gracious” (Exodus 34:6), Jehovah always looks at the heart, people’s real motives.

And here’s a thought that you might find interesting: the judgement that both Jesus & Paul mentioned @ John 5:28,29 & Acts 24:15? It’s not about what the unrighteous ones did in the past. Death was the payment for that (Romans 6:7). No, these ones will be judged after their resurrection, after all misleading influences have been removed. Their judgement will be based on how they behave at that future time, knowing all things accurately.

Does that not display loving concern on the part of our Father, Jehovah, and His Son Jesus?

The thing is when probation closes its done at that point, the just shall remain just and the unjust will remain unjust. The judgement will be what confirms where they are and the punishment...

 

[Hobie]

Colossians 2​

​

New Catholic Bible​

​

​

Chapter 2​

Closely United in Love.[a] 1 I want you to realize how greatly I am struggling for you as well as for those in Laodicea[b] and all the others who have never seen me face to face. 2 I want their hearts to be encouraged and united in love so that they may grow rich in their complete understanding as they come to the knowledge of the mystery of God, that is, Christ, 3 in whom are hidden all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge.
4 I am telling you all this so that no one may deceive you with deceptive arguments. 5 Even if I am not physically present to you, I am with you in spirit, and I rejoice to see your unity and the resolute firmness of your faith in Christ.

Instruction about Errors That Are Circulating​

Walk in Christ.[c] 6 Therefore, just as you received Christ Jesus the Lord, continue to walk in him. 7 Be rooted and built up in him, and remain established in the faith as you were taught, overflowing with thanksgiving. 8 Make sure that no one leads you astray with an empty and deceitful philosophy that depends on human tradition[d] and worldly principles, and not on Christ.
God Has Given You Life in Christ. 9 For it is in him that the entire fullness of deity dwells in bodily form,[e] 10 and you share this fullness in him who is the head of every ruler and power. 11 In him also you were circumcised, not with a physical circumcision but with a spiritual stripping away of the old nature with the circumcision of Christ.
12 When you were buried with him in baptism, you were also raised with him through faith in the power of God who raised him from the dead. 13 And even when you were dead in your sins and your flesh was uncircumcised, God gave you new life along with him. He has forgiven us all our sins, 14 erasing the record against us[f] with its decrees that are hostile to us. He set this aside, nailing it to the cross. 15 Disarming the rulers and powers, he made a public spectacle of them, parading them in his triumphal procession.
16 The Reality Is Christ.[g] Therefore, do not allow anyone to pass judgment on you in regard to what you eat or drink, or about the observance of Festivals, New Moons, or Sabbaths.[h] 17 These are only a shadow of what is to come. The reality is Christ.
18 Do not allow yourself to be declared disqualified by those who revel in false humility and worship angels and visions, their vanity foolishly inflated by a human way of thinking. 19 They are not united with the head, from whom the whole body, supported and held together by its ligaments and sinews, achieves the growth that comes from God.
20 Since you died with Christ to the elemental principles of this world, why are you living in the world as if you were subject to it? 21 “Do not handle!” “Do not taste!” “Do not touch!” 22 All this refers to things that perish as they are used. They are simply human commands and teachings. 23 Rules of this type indeed appear to be wise in promoting self-imposed piety, false humility, and harsh treatment of the body, but they are of no value in combating the flesh.

Footnotes​

1. Colossians 2:1 The Apostle draws his strength from faith, and believers draw their unity from that same faith: i.e., knowledge of the mystery of God, whose riches love will never cease uncovering. It is not a case of speculating about abstract ideas or empty words, but of recognizing the action of God in history and in the hearts of human beings—today as yesterday—so as to save them.
2. Colossians 2:1 Laodicea: a town about 11 miles away from Colossae; the Letter was to be read there, too (Col 4:16).
3. Colossians 2:6 Paul states that human laws, even the Law of Moses, could forbid sin but not overcome it; they drive human beings to sin and are like a sentence of death. We could imagine all sorts of hidden forces that might rule the world, but they can only add to the alienation of humans. Christ has liberated believers from this tyranny of observances and myths. In his Resurrection, he is the sole master through whom human beings are raised, and all the imaginable forces are subjected to him. For Christians, the conception of the world and life has changed; having been baptized, they share in the very life of God. This is a much more profound turnaround than the ancient circumcision. Why then do the Colossians insist on seeking salvation in material observances, human theories, and myths?
4. Colossians 2:8 Human tradition: literally, “philosophy,” a word that occurs only here in the New Testament. In this context, it refers not to systematic thought but to religious speculations.
5. Colossians 2:9 The entire fullness of deity dwells in bodily form: i.e., in the risen and glorified body of Christ.
6. Colossians 2:14 Record against us: the reference is perhaps to the Mosaic Law. The latter pointed out the way of the commandments but did not give the power to observe; as a result, it became the source of indictment.
7. Colossians 2:16 Certain Colossian Christians of Jewish extraction minutely observed the customs of the Jewish religion, others were partial to visions and revelations, and still others gave themselves over to ascetical practices. All of them acted as if their method was necessary for salvation. But wasn’t it Christ who saved them and who enabled his Church to live as a new seed in the world? To believe is to be set free and to dedicate oneself entirely to the Lord. What can human rites, exercises, usages, and theories do in this respect?
8. Colossians 2:16 Observance of Festivals, New Moons, or Sabbaths: observances that were in vogue on a yearly, monthly, or weekly basis. These were usually reckoned according to heavenly bodies, sun, moon, and stars (see Col 2:8).

Like what it says on tradition of man yet they insist it be followed when it suits them..

 

[JBO]

Colossians 2​

​

New Catholic Bible​

​

​

Chapter 2​

Closely United in Love.[a] 1 I want you to realize how greatly I am struggling for you as well as for those in Laodicea[b] and all the others who have never seen me face to face. 2 I want their hearts to be encouraged and united in love so that they may grow rich in their complete understanding as they come to the knowledge of the mystery of God, that is, Christ, 3 in whom are hidden all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge.
4 I am telling you all this so that no one may deceive you with deceptive arguments. 5 Even if I am not physically present to you, I am with you in spirit, and I rejoice to see your unity and the resolute firmness of your faith in Christ.

Instruction about Errors That Are Circulating​

Walk in Christ.[c] 6 Therefore, just as you received Christ Jesus the Lord, continue to walk in him. 7 Be rooted and built up in him, and remain established in the faith as you were taught, overflowing with thanksgiving. 8 Make sure that no one leads you astray with an empty and deceitful philosophy that depends on human tradition[d] and worldly principles, and not on Christ.
God Has Given You Life in Christ. 9 For it is in him that the entire fullness of deity dwells in bodily form,[e] 10 and you share this fullness in him who is the head of every ruler and power. 11 In him also you were circumcised, not with a physical circumcision but with a spiritual stripping away of the old nature with the circumcision of Christ.
12 When you were buried with him in baptism, you were also raised with him through faith in the power of God who raised him from the dead. 13 And even when you were dead in your sins and your flesh was uncircumcised, God gave you new life along with him. He has forgiven us all our sins, 14 erasing the record against us[f] with its decrees that are hostile to us. He set this aside, nailing it to the cross. 15 Disarming the rulers and powers, he made a public spectacle of them, parading them in his triumphal procession.
16 The Reality Is Christ.[g] Therefore, do not allow anyone to pass judgment on you in regard to what you eat or drink, or about the observance of Festivals, New Moons, or Sabbaths.[h] 17 These are only a shadow of what is to come. The reality is Christ.
18 Do not allow yourself to be declared disqualified by those who revel in false humility and worship angels and visions, their vanity foolishly inflated by a human way of thinking. 19 They are not united with the head, from whom the whole body, supported and held together by its ligaments and sinews, achieves the growth that comes from God.
20 Since you died with Christ to the elemental principles of this world, why are you living in the world as if you were subject to it? 21 “Do not handle!” “Do not taste!” “Do not touch!” 22 All this refers to things that perish as they are used. They are simply human commands and teachings. 23 Rules of this type indeed appear to be wise in promoting self-imposed piety, false humility, and harsh treatment of the body, but they are of no value in combating the flesh.

Footnotes​

1. Colossians 2:1 The Apostle draws his strength from faith, and believers draw their unity from that same faith: i.e., knowledge of the mystery of God, whose riches love will never cease uncovering. It is not a case of speculating about abstract ideas or empty words, but of recognizing the action of God in history and in the hearts of human beings—today as yesterday—so as to save them.
2. Colossians 2:1 Laodicea: a town about 11 miles away from Colossae; the Letter was to be read there, too (Col 4:16).
3. Colossians 2:6 Paul states that human laws, even the Law of Moses, could forbid sin but not overcome it; they drive human beings to sin and are like a sentence of death. We could imagine all sorts of hidden forces that might rule the world, but they can only add to the alienation of humans. Christ has liberated believers from this tyranny of observances and myths. In his Resurrection, he is the sole master through whom human beings are raised, and all the imaginable forces are subjected to him. For Christians, the conception of the world and life has changed; having been baptized, they share in the very life of God. This is a much more profound turnaround than the ancient circumcision. Why then do the Colossians insist on seeking salvation in material observances, human theories, and myths?
4. Colossians 2:8 Human tradition: literally, “philosophy,” a word that occurs only here in the New Testament. In this context, it refers not to systematic thought but to religious speculations.
5. Colossians 2:9 The entire fullness of deity dwells in bodily form: i.e., in the risen and glorified body of Christ.
6. Colossians 2:14 Record against us: the reference is perhaps to the Mosaic Law. The latter pointed out the way of the commandments but did not give the power to observe; as a result, it became the source of indictment.
7. Colossians 2:16 Certain Colossian Christians of Jewish extraction minutely observed the customs of the Jewish religion, others were partial to visions and revelations, and still others gave themselves over to ascetical practices. All of them acted as if their method was necessary for salvation. But wasn’t it Christ who saved them and who enabled his Church to live as a new seed in the world? To believe is to be set free and to dedicate oneself entirely to the Lord. What can human rites, exercises, usages, and theories do in this respect?
8. Colossians 2:16 Observance of Festivals, New Moons, or Sabbaths: observances that were in vogue on a yearly, monthly, or weekly basis. These were usually reckoned according to heavenly bodies, sun, moon, and stars (see Col 2:8).

None of that refutes anything that I posted

 

[The Learner]

None of that refutes anything that I posted

what did you post? Maybe, I was not trying to refute anything.

 

[The Learner]

Not to get off on a tangent here, but the word "soul" is in itself very misleading (see the links: "The Creation of Adam" and "the Human Spirit"). The "soul" is the "person" or "self" rather than an independent immaterial entity (like the human spirit). But back to the point, when we read of Abraham and Lazarus in paradise below the earth, we see that they are not asleep (indeed, even the rich man in Torments is wide awake; Lk.16:19-31). In Revelation 6:9-11 and 7:9-17 we see the (physically dead) tribulational martyrs wide-awake -- in heaven. In John 12:26 et alibi Jesus says that we will be where He is . . . and He is in heaven. One could go on. The point I wish to emphasize here is that there is no reasonable way to explain these and many other passages which demonstrate most perspicuously that believers are awake in the next life, even before the resurrection. It is not just a matter of counting up verses (although that method would result in the same conclusion); we could not explain how believers could be awake in these passages if there were "soul sleep", but it is possible to explain in a reasonable, biblical way what the passages (and their like) which you quote really mean, that is, they are in fact consistent with being conscious after death. Case in point is the comparison of two of them: "the dead will be raised imperishable" (1Cor.15:52), and "God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him" (1Thes.4:14). Now the similar theme of resurrection in both passages makes it undeniable that "the dead" are the same as "those who have fallen asleep", and that is key to understanding this point:

Who knows if the spirit of man rises upward and if the spirit of the animal goes down into the earth?
Ecclesiastes 3:21 NIV

The spirit goes up; the body goes down. The spirit is alive; the body is dead. Viewing a departed loved one we view the body and the body is dead; therefore the body is asleep (since sleep, we have established, is a euphemism for death as seen in the two Pauline passages above). But because the body is asleep/dead, does not mean that the spirit is asleep/dead. In fact, the spirit is immortal, even for the truly "dead", that is, unbelievers, as is clear from the rich man in torments in Luke 16. So when the Bible speaks of "the dead" in referring to believers, we know that this refers to their physical bodies and to the fact that they are no longer in this world, but that on another much more important level believers have eternal life and will never die.

Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in me will live, even though he dies.
John 11:25 NIV

For we are most certainly not in fact "dead" to God.

Now He is not the God of the dead but of the living; for all live to Him.
Luke 20:38 NASB

The False Doctrine of Soul Sleep II.

The false notion that believers must wait until the resurrection to be with Jesus after death is refuted.

ichthys.com

 

[The Learner]

How would adherents of soul sleep explain the following verses?​

Trust me I have looked into soul sleep but these verses still bug me. Note: I currently believe that we are soul and we do not have a soul (we do have a breath of life and a life force of course, but not a disembodied existence).
Genesis 4:10:
The Lord said, “What have you done? Listen! Your brother’s blood cries out to me from the ground.
Deuteronomy 18:11:
"..or casts spells, or who is a medium or spiritist or who consults the dead."
Psalm 88:10-12:
Do you show your wonders to the dead? Do their spirits rise up and praise you? Is your love declared in Sheol, your faithfulness in Abbadon? Are your wonders known in the place of darkness, or your righteous deeds in the land of oblivion?
1 Samuel 28:14-15:
“What does he look like?” he asked.
“An old man wearing a robe is coming up,” she said.
Then Saul knew it was Samuel, and he bowed down and prostrated himself with his face to the ground.
Samuel said to Saul, “Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?”
Isaiah 14:9:
Sheol beneath is stirred up to meet you when you come; it rouses the ghosts to greet you, all who were leaders of the earth; it raises from their thrones all who were kings of the nations.
Matthew 10:28:
Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.
Matthew 12:39-41:
"For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of a huge fish, so the Son of Man will be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth."
Jonah was "in" Sheol (the grave), how come the grave be all the way to the heart (center) of the earth?
Luke 23:43:
Jesus answered him, “Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise.”
2 Peter 2:19-20:
"After being made alive, he went and made proclamation to the imprisoned spirits—to those who were disobedient long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water,"
Revelation 6:9-10:
When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained. 10 They called out in a loud voice, “How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?”

https://www.reddit.com/r/Bible/comments/13hprta

 

[The Learner]

What are the biblical arguments against soul sleep?

Quoting from this site: Soul sleep is the teaching that when a person dies that his soul "sleeps" until the time of the future resurrection. In this condition, the person is not aware or conscio...

christianity.stackexchange.com

Soul Sleep - Apologetics

By Tal Davis “To be or not to be: That is the question.” William Shakespeare One … Soul Sleep Read More »

www.namb.net

Are People Unconscious at Death? (Soul Sleep)

The doctrine of soul sleep teaches that, upon death, the soul of each person, believer and unbeliever alike, "sleeps" until the general resurrection

www.blueletterbible.org

Soul sleep or heaven? - AV1611 Bible Forum Archive

Soul sleep or heaven? Doctrine

av1611.com

 

[The Learner]

What About Soul-Sleep?

MoreSections
You have access Opinion piece

How deep is the rift between conscious states in sleep and wakefulness? Spontaneous experience over the sleep–wake cycle​

Jennifer M. Windt
Published:14 December 2020https://doi.org/10.1098/rstb.2019.0696

Abstract​

Whether we are awake or asleep is believed to mark a sharp divide between the types of conscious states we undergo in either behavioural state. Consciousness in sleep is often equated with dreaming and thought to be characteristically different from waking consciousness. Conversely, recent research shows that we spend a substantial amount of our waking lives mind wandering, or lost in spontaneous thoughts. Dreaming has been described as intensified mind wandering, suggesting that there is a continuum of spontaneous experience that reaches from waking into sleep. This challenges how we conceive of the behavioural states of sleep and wakefulness in relation to conscious states. I propose a conceptual framework that distinguishes different subtypes of spontaneous thoughts and experiences independently of their occurrence in sleep or waking. I apply this framework to selected findings from dream and mind-wandering research. I argue that to assess the relationship between spontaneous thoughts and experiences and the behavioural states of sleep and wakefulness, we need to look beyond dreams to consider kinds of sleep-related experience that qualify as dreamless. I conclude that if we consider the entire range of spontaneous thoughts and experiences, there appears to be variation in subtypes both within as well as across behavioural states. Whether we are sleeping or waking does not appear to strongly constrain which subtypes of spontaneous thoughts and experiences we undergo in those states. This challenges the conventional and coarse-grained distinction between sleep and waking and their putative relation to conscious states.
This article is part of the theme issue ‘Offline perception: voluntary and spontaneous perceptual experiences without matching external stimulation’.

1. Introduction​

Whether we are awake or asleep is often thought to make a difference not just to behaviour, but also to our conscious mental states. More specifically, which behavioural state a person is in at a particular time is believed to constrain which conscious state a person is in at that time and whether they are conscious at all. Both in folk-psychology and in prominent dream theories, conscious experience in sleep, in the form of dreaming, is thought to differ in characteristic ways from waking thought and experience [1]. In this view, there is a deep rift between the types of conscious states experienced in sleep and wakefulness.
Others reject the idea that differences in conscious states map onto differences in behavioural states. Often, this is framed as the idea that there is continuity between dreaming and waking. This continuity can refer to the fact that we tend to dream of things we experience, think, or worry about in waking [2–4]. Or it can mean that dreams are the same type of mental state as waking imagination and daydreams and both are distinct from perception [5]. More recently, dreaming has been described as an intensified form of waking mind wandering existing on a continuum of spontaneous experiences that ranges from creative thought and mind wandering in waking to dreaming in sleep [6–8].
Assessing these opposing positions on the relation between conscious states and behavioural states—I call this the state-dependence question—is complicated by the fact that there is no common terminology for describing spontaneous thoughts and experiences. Mind wandering [9,10] and dream research [11,12] have both been fraught by competing definitions. In recent years, there has been growing consensus on the definition of dreaming [13–15]. However, the terminology used for dreaming operates on a different level of description from that used for the definition of mind wandering. This, in turn, hampers comparisons between these states as well as their joint empirical investigation.

https://royalsocietypublishing.org/doi/10.1098/rstb.2019.0696

 

[Duck Muscles]

I believe when we die we are ushered into the presence of God. Here is my reasoning as to why there is no "soul sleep" upon death.

Absent the body, present with the Lord. (Apostle Paul) 2 Corinthians 5:8

It is appointed for men to die, then comes the judgment. Hebrews 9:27


Today you will be with me in paradise. (Jesus to the thief on the cross)

The beheaded saints under the altar of God pleading with Him to avenge them. They are not in soul sleep. (Revelation 6:10)

The story of the rich man and Lazarus. They were conscious after death. Perhaps this parable should not be taken literally, mind, I'm just throwing it out there.

What do you think? Please use scripture to justify your position. God bless!

The soul returns to God when we die. Our flesh , if not interred as it is according to Western standards for burials, decomposes back to dust.

In that sense we are with God. As are all souls.

Will we know auntie Esther, cousin Steve, mom, dad, then?

Likely not. We're within and returned to God.

 

[The Learner]

The concept of `mindfulness´ was operationalized primarily for patients with chronic stressors, while it is rarely used in reference to soldiers. We intended to validate a modified instrument on the basis of the Freiburg Mindfulness Inventory (FMI) to measure soldiers’ situational awareness (“mindfulness”) in stressful situations/missions. The instrument we will explore in this paper is termed the Conscious Presence and Self Control (CPSC) scale.

...

Conscious Presence and Self Control as a measure of situational awareness in soldiers – A validation study

The concept of `mindfulness´ was operationalized primarily for patients with chronic stressors, while it is rarely used in reference to soldiers. We intended to validate a modified instrument on the basis of the Freiburg Mindfulness Inventory ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

 

[The Learner]

I am trying to figure out while I am asleep, I dream and am still aware of movement in my room. My Family has emines out to kill us.

 

[JBO]

what did you post? Maybe, I was not trying to refute anything.

What do you mean what did I post? You referenced me. Why?