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Soul Sleep yes or no?

Discussion in 'Unorthodox Doctrine Forum' started by friend of, Nov 18, 2021.

Is there such a thing as "soul sleep"?

This poll will close on Nov 18, 2022 at 9:51 PM.
  1. Yes

    8 vote(s)
    44.4%
  2. No

    9 vote(s)
    50.0%
  3. Other

    1 vote(s)
    5.6%
  1. Truth7t7

    Truth7t7 Well-Known Member

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    Your claim is error, Jesus raised Lazarus from the dead, no resurrection took place as you claim

    There has only been "One" resurrection of the dead that being Jesus Christ the firstfruits, and all men will be resurrected on the future last day at the second coming

    John 12:1KJV
    Then Jesus six days before the passover came to Bethany, where Lazarus was, which had been dead, whom he raised from the dead.
     
    Last edited: Nov 25, 2021
  2. Truth7t7

    Truth7t7 Well-Known Member

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    You claim no persons soul is currently in "Hell" your claim is wrong

    Scripture clearly teaches the wicked dead are in "Hell" as death and "Hell" deliver up the dead "IN THEM"

    Read it real slow, hell delivered up the dead which were in them:


    Revelation 20:13KJV
    13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

    Luke 16:22-25KJV
    22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
    23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments,
    and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
    24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
    25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.

    Psalm 55:15KJV
    15 Let death seize upon them, and let them go down quick into hell: for wickedness is in their dwellings, and among them.
     
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  3. Truth7t7

    Truth7t7 Well-Known Member

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    Your claim is "Error", scripture clearly teaches the "Souls" of the righteous are "Conscious" and communicating with and in the presence of God, as humans are living upon a physical earth

    Revelation 6:9-11KJV
    9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
    10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
    11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.
     
    Last edited: Nov 25, 2021
  4. Heart2Soul

    Heart2Soul Spiritual Warrior Staff Member

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    You have proved my statement about Jesus....Jesus was in His physical body while He remained for 40 days teaching.
    The angels had to materialize in human form, Gabriel took on human form...
    In other words, in the physical realm, they needed to be in a physical body to participate in it.

    And back to the fact that Jesus was the first to be resurrected in the flesh and after His ascension He took on His glorified body..
     
    Last edited: Nov 25, 2021
  5. Heart2Soul

    Heart2Soul Spiritual Warrior Staff Member

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    This is how it can be claimed that He overcame the curse of sin and death.
     
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  6. friend of

    friend of Well-Known Member

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    Ah yes. Good old Spurgeon
     
  7. FluffyYellowDuck

    FluffyYellowDuck Well-Known Member

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    Love Spurgeon.
     
  8. quietthinker

    quietthinker Well-Known Member

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    It's not possible T7t7 to communicate meaning if one takes what is meant as metaphorical and interprets it as literal.
     
  9. BARNEY BRIGHT

    BARNEY BRIGHT Well-Known Member

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    friend of said:
    Today you will be with me in paradise. (Jesus to the thief on the cross)[/Quote\]

    The scriptures show us that Jesus wasn't resurrected from the dead until three days after his death and didn't go into heaven until 40 days after his resurrection. So when Jesus said What he said to the thief when he was being put to death Jesus wasn't saying that on that literal day that thief would be in paradise with Jesus. What Jesus did was he promised the thief that in his thousand year reign when the resurrection of the righteous and unrighteous began the thief would get a resurrection.

    friend of said:
    Absent the body, present with the Lord. (Apostle Paul) 2 Corinthians 5:8 [/Quote\]

    When Paul was inspired by God to write this scripture Paul wasn't saying that at the moment of his death he would be in heaven with Jesus. When Paul was writing 2 Corinthians 5:1-10 he was talking about the hope in common to all anointed Christians, which was that they were to be in heaven. This was to happen not because man has some immortal soul, but through a resurrection during Christs second presence. (1 Corinthians 15:23, 42-44) At John 14:1-3 also shows that Jesus would prepare a place for his Apostles and disciples and come back to get them to take them to heaven. When it says Jesus is to come back at John 14:1-3 it's talking about Jesus return, which is his second presence. The point is at the moment of death those who belong to Jesus and are judged as righteous will sleep in death until the second presence of Jesus Christ. It is when the Apostles and disciples of Jesus are resurrected during his second presence they are with Jesus and they receive immortality and inherit incorruption.

    friend of said:
    The beheaded saints under the altar of God pleading with Him to avenge them. They are not in soul sleep. (Revelation 6:10) [/Quote\]

    Revelation is a very symbolic book. (Revelation 1:1) Taking this scripture literally is a mistake.
    John knows that the soul, or life, is symbolized by the blood, and when the priests at the ancient Jewish tabernacle slaughtered a sacrificial animal, they sprinkled the blood “round about upon the altar” or poured it “at the base of the altar of burnt offering.” (Leviticus 3:2, 8, 13; 4:7; 17:6, 11, 12) Hence, the animal’s soul was closely identified with the altar of sacrifice. So the souls, or blood, of these particular servants of God seen underneath a symbolic altar in heaven is because their deaths are viewed as sacrificial.
    All those who are Jesus Apostles and disciples who are of the anointed die a sacrificial death. Because of the role they are to play in Jehovah’s heavenly Kingdom, it is God’s will that they renounce and sacrifice any hope of life everlasting on earth. In this respect, they submit to a sacrificial death in behalf of Jehovah’s sovereignty. (Philippians 3:8-11; compare 2:17.) This is true in a very real sense of those whom John saw under the altar. They are anointed ones who in their day were martyred for their zealous ministry in upholding Jehovah’s Word and sovereignty. Their “souls were slaughtered because of the word of God and because of the witness work that they used to have.”






     
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  10. Aunty Jane

    Aunty Jane Well-Known Member

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    Jesus was not resurrected in a fleshly body because Peter tells us that he was "put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit". (1 Peter 3:18) As a spirit, he could materialize fleshly bodies, as other spirit beings had done in the past.

    So, what do the Scriptures tell us about the resurrected Jesus?
    The apostles had been his constant companions for three and a half years and yet after his resurrection, he only "appeared" to them. He did not dwell with them during the 40 days that he remained on earth. Sometimes his disciples recognized him and sometimes they didn't. Luke 24 is an interesting read.
    Luke 24:30-31 says that whilst dining with some of his disciples, he broke the bread in his usual way, and once they had recognized him, he simply vanished before their eyes.
    On another occasion, he materialized a body with wounds to convince a doubting Thomas.

    It is interesting that the Jews were forbidden to communicate with spirits, (Deuteronomy 18:9-12) so in order not to contravene God's law, spirit beings always appeared in a material form. The demons seem to have been stripped of that ability after the flood, as there is no further mention of them taking on human form....although they had the ability to inhabit the fleshly bodies of other humans and even animals.

    Demonic activity was particularly prevalent in the days of Jesus and his apostles.

    Jesus was the first human to be raised as a spirit, opening the way for his elect to follow at a future time.
    This is what I believe the scriptures tell us.
     
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  11. quietthinker

    quietthinker Well-Known Member

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    'Have you got something to eat he asked them and they gave him some broiled fish and he ate it in front of them' Luke 24:42
    'Look at my hands and my feet. It is I myself. Touch me and see - for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see I have...' Luke 24:39
     
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  12. charity

    charity Well-Known Member

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    Hello @friend of,

    'And the LORD said unto Moses,
    Behold, thou shalt sleep with thy fathers; ... '
    (Deu 31:16)

    And when thy days be fulfilled,
    and thou shalt sleep with thy fathers, ... '
    (2Sa 7:12)

    ' ... for now shall I sleep in the dust; ... '
    (Job 7:21)

    'If a man die, shall he live again?
    all the days of my appointed time will I wait, till my change come.
    Thou shalt call, and I will answer thee:
    thou wilt have a desire to the work of thine hands.'
    (Job 14:14)

    'And why dost thou not pardon my transgression,
    and take away mine iniquity?
    for now shall I sleep in the dust;
    and thou shalt seek me in the morning, but I shall not be.'
    (Job 7:21)

    'Consider and hear me, O LORD my God:
    lighten mine eyes, lest I sleep the sleep of death;'
    (Psa 13:3)

    'And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake,
    some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.'
    (Dan 12:2)

    'These things said He: and after that He saith unto them,
    Our friend Lazarus sleepeth;
    but I go, that I may awake Him out of sleep.'
    (Joh 11:11)

    'For David, after he had served his own generation by the will of God,
    fell on sleep, and was laid unto his fathers, and saw corruption:
    But He, whom God raised again, saw no corruption.'
    (Act 13:36-37)

    'For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep.'
    (1Co 11:30)

    'Behold, I shew you a mystery;
    We shall not all sleep,
    but we shall all be changed,'
    (1Co 15:51)

    'But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren,
    concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not,
    even as others which have no hope.
    For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again,
    even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with Him.
    For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord,
    that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord
    shall not prevent them which are asleep.
    For the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout,
    with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God:
    and the dead in Christ shall rise first:'
    (1Th 4:13-16)

    'For God hath not appointed us to wrath,
    but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
    Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep,
    we should live together with Him.
    Wherefore comfort yourselves together,
    and edify one another, even as also ye do.
    (1Th 5:9-11)

    Thank you
    In Christ Jesus
    Chris
     
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  13. BARNEY BRIGHT

    BARNEY BRIGHT Well-Known Member

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    At 1 Peter 3: 18,19 the Apostle Peter says, according to The New English Bible of 1961: “For Christ also died for our sins once for all. He, the just, suffered for the unjust, to bring us to God. In the body he was put to death; in the spirit he was brought to life. So Jesus was resurrected with a spiritual body, not a physical body. It was in this spiritual body he went and made his proclamation to the imprisoned spirits.”

    So, concerning Jesus’ resurrection, Peter says that “in the spirit he was brought to life.” This explains why on the resurrection morning when God’s angel rolled the stone from the door of the sepulcher the soldier guards did not see Jesus rise from the dead and come out, although they did see the materialized angel. (Matthew 28:1-4) This explains why, when the resurrected Jesus met two disciples walking that day to Emmaus and went along with them and started to take supper with them, they didn't know it was Jesus until he began to serve the bread; and then he disappeared. Luke 24:13-35. This let's us know that Jesus was resurrected as a spiritual being who had the ability to materialize physical bodies. He wasn't resurrected with a physical body.

    This explains why, when the apostles and other disciples were met together in Jerusalem behind closed doors for fear of the fanatical Jews, Jesus came right through the walls. He amazingly stood right in among them, and, after eating and talking with them, he then just vanished from them. (Luke 24: 36-44; John 20:19-24) Of course, for Jesus, who had been brought to life in the spirit, to make himself visible to his disciples, he had to materialize on each occasion a body of flesh and bones. However 1 Corinthians 15:45 shows that Jesus was resurrected with a spiritual body. It wasn't the same body he sacrificed to the world of mankind.
     
  14. Wrangler

    Wrangler Well-Known Member

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    Clearly, he does not move solely as we who are only flesh move.

    Quietthinker, why do you quote over AJ's Scriptural quote without commenting on the verses she presented, Luke 24:30-31? While Jesus was physically resurrected, it was not in a normal body, such as Lazarus, but a glorified body. The difference seems to be that a glorified body does not decay and can appear and vanish at will, yes?
     
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  15. Heart2Soul

    Heart2Soul Spiritual Warrior Staff Member

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    Luke 24 (KJV)
    ¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯
    ³⁶ And as they thus spake, Jesus himself stood in the midst of them, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you.
    ³⁷ But they were terrified and affrighted, and supposed that they had seen a spirit.
    ³⁸ And he said unto them, Why are ye troubled? and why do thoughts arise in your hearts?
    ³⁹ Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.
    ⁴⁰ And when he had thus spoken, he shewed them his hands and his feet.
    ⁴¹ And while they yet believed not for joy, and wondered, he said unto them, Have ye here any meat?
    ⁴² And they gave him a piece of a broiled fish, and of an honeycomb.
    ⁴³ And he took it, and did eat before them.

    Jesus said a spirit hath not flesh and bone, as you see me have....
    Now come on....how much more plainer can it get?
     
  16. Heart2Soul

    Heart2Soul Spiritual Warrior Staff Member

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    Luke 24 (KJV)
    ¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯
    ³⁶ And as they thus spake, Jesus himself stood in the midst of them, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you.
    ³⁷ But they were terrified and affrighted, and supposed that they had seen a spirit.
    ³⁸ And he said unto them, Why are ye troubled? and why do thoughts arise in your hearts?
    ³⁹ Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.
    ⁴⁰ And when he had thus spoken, he shewed them his hands and his feet.
    ⁴¹ And while they yet believed not for joy, and wondered, he said unto them, Have ye here any meat?
    ⁴² And they gave him a piece of a broiled fish, and of an honeycomb.
    ⁴³ And he took it, and did eat before them.

    Again how much more plainer does it have to get?
     
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  17. Aunty Jane

    Aunty Jane Well-Known Member

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    Well.....when an idea becomes deeply entrenched, no matter what he scriptures say as a whole, specific verses that appear to support an accepted doctrine are jumped on.

    What you have quoted above is a prime example of that. How does the rest of scripture help us to see what Jesus was saying according to Jewish belief? He was Jewish after all, and speaking exclusively to a Jewish audience.

    Do you believe that the angels who appeared to Abraham at Mamre (Genesis 18) were human beings like Abraham was? They are and drank the feast that Abraham and Sarah prepared for them, and two of them went on to Sodom to rescue Lot and his family from its impending destruction.....they also ate and drank what Lot provided for them.
    The angels that sinned in Noah’s day cohabited with women and produced children.
    They were materialised angels and yet they had human bodies which were apparently fully functional.

    Why did Jesus say that he had “flesh and bones” and not “flesh and blood”?
    He was in materialized form so he was not in spirit form when he said that...they were forbidden to communicate with spirits so Jesus and indeed all angelic messengers, made sure that they were never in spirit form when they spoke to God’s people. It was always in a material form...even a burning bush.

    Do you understand why God forbade contact with the spirit world, except to communicate with God and only through Jesus Christ as Mediator? It was because the devil had planted false ideas about death and perpetuated these lies to promote the idea that humans do not really die (as he told Eve in the garden). By impersonating the dead, wicked spirits in league with the devil, try to fool humans into thinking that some conscious part of them departs from the body at death. That was never a Jewish belief...only the pagans believed that. This is why God said to his people, on the brink of taking the Promised Land from the demon worshipping Canaanites...
    Deuteronomy 18:9-12...
    “When you have entered into the land that Jehovah your God is giving you, you must not learn to imitate the detestable practices of those nations. 10 There should not be found in you anyone who makes his son or his daughter pass through the fire, anyone who employs divination, anyone practicing magic, anyone who looks for omens, a sorcerer, 11 anyone binding others with a spell, anyone who consults a spirit medium or a fortune-teller, or anyone who inquires of the dead. 12 For whoever does these things is detestable to Jehovah, and on account of these detestable practices Jehovah your God is driving them away from before you.”

    All forms of spiritism were to be avoided under penalty of death.
    Why would it be “detestable” to God to communicate with lost loved ones who had passed? It was because these spirits were nothing of the sort....they were demonic impersonators, like the one who was conjured up by the witch of Endor impersonating the prophet Samuel.

    There is no life after death as is taught in all religions except the true one. Ecclesiastes 9:5, 10 declares that the dead do not “know” anything nor are they able to think or plan or do a thing because they are in “sheol” the grave, where all humanity ends up. It is where all the dead sleep and are called from by Jesus in the general resurrection of the dead. (John 5:28-29)

    The whole Bible has to be used to determine what is truth, not just the verses that suggest what we want to believe....
     
  18. Aunty Jane

    Aunty Jane Well-Known Member

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    Was there something in my post that I did not make clear QT? Materialised angels ate and drank in times past...they physically escorted Lot and his family out of Sodom. Jesus said he had “flesh and bones”....interesting that he didn’t say he had “flesh and blood”.
     
  19. BARNEY BRIGHT

    BARNEY BRIGHT Well-Known Member

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    Yes how much plainer does it need to get. Jesus was resurrected with a spiritual body and was able to materialize physical bodies so his Apostles and disciples could see him when he needed to.
     
  20. quietthinker

    quietthinker Well-Known Member

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    I'm sorry AJ, your argument accompanied by many words is not persuasive in the least.
     
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