Speculating on ... "the lie" ... (endtimes)

[veteran]

II Th 2:3-4
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
(KJV)

Amazing how so many here just skip, hop, and jump... right over that Scripture in bold.

That "temple" there is NOT about Rome nor any pope! The idea of a "bishop of bishops" (the Pope) didn't even exist... in Apostle Paul's days! Rome was still pagan, not Christianized.

The ONLY "temple of God" Paul could refer to was the Jerusalem temple that was still standing in Paul's days!

We certainly... know that "temple" is not about the spiritual temple metaphor of Ephesians, for the spiritual temple Paul and Peter declared as Christ, the prophets and Apostles as the foundation, and that can NEVER be corrupted by ANY man.

And the idea of that coming Antichrist exalting himself over all that is even 'called' God, or that is worshipped, means over ALL KNOWN RELIGIONS AND BELIEF SYSTEMS OF MAN, over even the concept of GOD. Paul is truly pointing to a WORLD ANTICHRIST FIGURE sitting in a rebuilt temple in Jerusalem for the end.

Were we not warned of that coming Antichrist through prophecy given to Daniel? and then by our Lord Jesus Himself and by His Apostle John in Revelation? and that in relation to the city of Jerusalem?

So ONCE that 2 Thess.2:4 verse is properly understood, then it's a very simple matter of looking at the 2 Thess.2:3 verse again about that 'apostasy' idea ("falling away" = Greek apostasia - Strong's 646), and who all... it will affect.

So, will deceived brethren in Christ fall away to worship that coming Antichrist who is coming to play God in Jerusalem in our near future? YES! We've already been warned in many other Scriptures of how many brethren will fall away to no longer heed sound doctrine in the last days.

Brethren in Christ, you want to get 'prunned' by Christ Jesus when He appears a second time in our near future? if you do, then just keep on jumping right over that 2 Thess.2:4 verse warning that Apostle Paul gave Christ's Church for the end of this world about that coming Antichrist sitting in Jerusalem. Keep dreaming up all sorts of erroneous ideas of what the "strong delusion" and "lie" of 2 Thess.2:11 is totally disconnected from that 2 Thess.2:4 verse.

 

[BLACK SHEEP]

I appreciate modern day Christian's conjure up all manner of ungodly notions regarding this word "satan" or "adversary" but the reality of its symbolism if not seen in fallen angel whose abode is a fiery caldron.

What is "the work of Satan"? It is the work of an adversary! Paul uses the same language, when writing to the Corinthians, in describing Jewish adversaries who had assumed apostolic powers, disguising themselves as servants of righteousness (2Co 10:12-15). "To come with the work of Satan", therefore, is to disguise one's true character.

Likewise, the Roman Catholic "Church" claims to be the Bride of Christ, showing his love and glorifying God -- but all the while it is only a guise. The Catholic system is in reality the "Satan", or "Adversary", of all true religion - claiming divine authority where it has none, persecuting believers of all other faiths, and actively suppressing the printing, distributing and reading of the Bible and many other atrocities to their name.

All will be revealed upon his coming 2 Thes 1:8

You've been indoctrinated by your mentors and that's the way the devil wants it!. He wants you to demonize other Christians. That's his style. DECEPTION! He has people in your camp believing that the Pope and some European is going to emerge as the false prophet and anti-christ. AND! That the so called "apostate Church" will welcome the man of sin. Can you show me one verse of prophecy where that or Rome is implied in the bible?

What is it that's demonic about the creeds of the Catholic Church? We believe in the same God. You believe the Prejudice Protestant view of Catholicism. So if the experts can't get it right. I'm sure you won't either.

The Apostles Creed
I believe in God, the Father Almighty, Creator of heaven and earth. I believe in Jesus Christ his only Son, our Lord. He was conceived by the power of the Holy Spirit and born of the Virgin Mary. He suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, died and was buried. He descended into hell. On the third day he rose again. He ascended into heaven, and is seated at the right hand of the Father. He will come again to judge the living and the dead. I believe in the Holy Spirit, the holy catholic Church, the Communion of Saints, the forgiveness of sins, the Resurrection of the body and life everlasting. Amen.

The Nicene Creed
We believe in one God, the Father, the Almighty, maker of heaven and earth, of all that is seen and unseen. We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ, the only Son of God, eternally begotten of the Father, God from God, Light from Light, true God from true God, begotten not made, one in Being with the Father. Through him all things were made. For us men and for our salvation he came down from heaven: by the power of the Holy Spirit he was born of the Virgin Mary, and became man. For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate; he suffered, died, and was buried. On the third day he rose again in fulfillment of the Scriptures; he ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father. He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead, and his kingdom will have no end. We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life, who proceeds from the Father and the Son. With the Father and the Son he is worshiped and glorified. He has spoken through the Prophets. We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church. We acknowledge one Baptism for the forgiveness of sins. We look for the resurrection of the dead and the life of the world to come. Amen.

You said...

persecuting believers of all other faiths,

WOW! You really are misinformed!

Tell me how many people were murdered at the hands of Catholics in the last 30 days? Or even the last hundred years?

Lets start in 1922....

Baron Bodissey said,

That is. The week of September 11-17, to be precise. During that period the city was occupied by the forces of Mustafa Kemal, a.k.a. Kemal Attaturk. The Christian areas of the city were looted and torched, and the Armenians and the Greeks were driven from their homes to flee the city or be slaughtered. Of the 400,000 Christians resident in the city beforehand, virtually none remained, and more than 190,000 were never accounted for. The Archbishop Chrysostomos was among the victims, murdered at the hands of a mob while under the “protection” of French marines. The city, except for the Turkish quarter, was reduced to a smoking ruin.

At the beginning of the 20th century there were an estimated 4.5 million Christians in what is now Turkey, most of them Greek. In 1979 the Greek Orthodox population in Turkey was thought to be no more than 7,000, and is now down to about 2,000.
Where did all those Greeks go? Demetrios didn’t just turn to Sofia one day and say, “Darling, let’s load all our worldly goods onto the donkey cart and we’ll move to Athens or Thessalonica.” It’s not like Smyrna was proselytized by gentle imams who were so persuasive that the entire Greek population converted to Islam, gave up their Greek surnames, and took on Turkish ones instead.

No, Asia Minor was cleared of Greeks and Armenians in the traditional manner, by blood and fire, by the sword and the bullet, by rapine and looting and unimaginable slaughter. But this didn’t happen in 670, or 1084, or 1453, or 1683. It was in 1922, in the recently departed 20th century. It was the Rwanda and Darfur of the 1920s, and it occurred within living memory. Or it would be living, if the memory of it hadn’t been dumped down the oubliette along with all the other inconvenient facts that the bien-pensants would rather not think about.
_________________________________________
Now lets go to the last 30 days... ACCORDING TO THE RELIGION OF PEACE

The Ramadan Bombathon 2013.
There were 310 Jihad Attacks: In 19 Countries: Against 5 religions: with 1652 dead bodies and 3048 people Critically Injured:

Now. Give me your statistics from the last 100 years and the last 30 days! If you like I can give you hundreds of other Islamic attacks between the two I just mentioned!

You also said...

and actively suppressing the printing, distributing and reading of the Bible and many other atrocities to their name.

How are Catholic's doing that???

I'M SURE THAT YOU DON'T KNOW THAT ABOUT 5 YEARS AGO IN INDONESIA MUSLIM'S STARTED PRINTING BIBLES WITH THE WORD ALLAH IN IT INSTEAD OF GOD. IT WAS THE CATHOLIC'S WHO TOOK THEM TO COURT OVER IT........AND WON!

YOU, BROTHER TOM, AND SEVERAL OTHERS REALLY OUGHT TO CHILL OUT, GO BACK TO SCHOOL, AND STOP DEMONIZING GOD'S PEOPLE.

Show me Rome in Prophecy and I'll show you Islam in prophecy!

 

[veteran]

I guess we need to re-visit the concept of what officially makes one an "antichrist".

I Jn 2:22
22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.
(KJV)

I Jn 4:3
3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.
(KJV)


John's idea is about those who REFUSE to confess that Jesus of Nazareth IS THE CHRIST-MESSIAH, God having come in the flesh.

It is not simply about belief that Jesus of Nazareth was born in the flesh, it's about Jesus Himself being God with us, having come in the flesh through Mary's womb (Hebrew meaning of His name "Immanuel" in the Isaiah Scripture is 'with us is God').


That means anyone... who refuses to believe that Jesus of Nazareth is God, born of woman in the flesh having walked among us, is an "antichrist". Even the devil knows Jesus came in the flesh. But the devil would deny that Jesus is God. Likewise do those not of God, they deny that Jesus of Nazareth is God having come in the flesh.

 

[afaithfulone4u]

I guess we need to re-visit the concept of what officially makes one an "antichrist".

I Jn 2:22
22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.
(KJV)

I Jn 4:3
3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.
(KJV)


John's idea is about those who REFUSE to confess that Jesus of Nazareth IS THE CHRIST-MESSIAH, God having come in the flesh.

It is not simply about belief that Jesus of Nazareth was born in the flesh, it's about Jesus Himself being God with us, having come in the flesh through Mary's womb (Hebrew meaning of His name "Immanuel" in the Isaiah Scripture is 'with us is God').


That means anyone... who refuses to believe that Jesus of Nazareth is God, born of woman in the flesh having walked among us, is an "antichrist". Even the devil knows Jesus came in the flesh. But the devil would deny that Jesus is God. Likewise do those not of God, they deny that Jesus of Nazareth is God having come in the flesh.

And I think we need to read down a little further to get the concept of what COME IN THE FLESH MEANS!

1 John 4:1-4
4:1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.
2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:
3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.
4 Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.
KJV

Do you know that even the demons know who Jesus is and seen him in the flesh.... but if the Word does not live in your flesh then then you are DEAD and the TRUTH is NOT in you!
Test the spirits and you will see who truly allows the Word to be received in them, to come in their flesh.

 

[veteran]

And I think we need to read down a little further to get the concept of what COME IN THE FLESH MEANS!

1 John 4:1-4
4:1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.
2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:
3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.
4 Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.
KJV

Do you know that even the demons know who Jesus is and seen him in the flesh.... but if the Word does not live in your flesh then then you are DEAD and the TRUTH is NOT in you!
Test the spirits and you will see who truly allows the Word to be received in them, to come in their flesh.

We cannot just slip by John's declaring the fact of what disbelief makes one an "antichrist".

It is specifically the disbelief that Jesus of Nazareth is God having come in the flesh, as "Immanuel" (God with us per Matt.1:23).

Those who deny Jesus of Nazareth as God in the flesh have that "spirit of antichrist" in them, showing Christ's servants those are not 'of God'.

 

[afaithfulone4u]

We cannot just slip by John's declaring the fact of what disbelief makes one an "antichrist".

It is specifically the disbelief that Jesus of Nazareth is God having come in the flesh, as "Immanuel" (God with us per Matt.1:23).

Those who deny Jesus of Nazareth as God in the flesh have that "spirit of antichrist" in them, showing Christ's servants those are not 'of God'.

I did not try to slip past anything. I am telling you that an antichrist IS anyone who is against/anti- the Word/Christ of God who is the WAY is the Truth and the Life. If the Word abides in you and you abide in the Word then HE WHO IS IN YOU(COME IN YOUR FLESH) IS GREATER THAN he who is in the world.
Even the demons believed that Jesus was the Son of God.. but are they saved?
Luke 4:40-41
40 Now when the sun was setting, all they that had any sick with divers diseases brought them unto him; and he laid his hands on every one of them, and healed them.
41 And devils also came out of many, crying out, and saying, Thou art Christ the Son of God. And he rebuking them suffered them not to speak: for they knew that he was Christ.
KJV

 

[Purity]

Show me Rome in Prophecy and I'll show you Islam in prophecy!

Can you show me Hinduism, Buddhism or Sikhism?

Kaotic, what was the apostate religion which irritated the Apostle Paul in his preaching of the true Gospel of Christ during his ministry?

 

[This Vale Of Tears]

Apostle Paul already told us what the "lie" of 2 Thess.2:11 is about; it's right there written in the Scripture...

II Th 2:3-4
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
(KJV)

II Th 2:8-11
8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
(KJV)

The "lie" is that pseudo-Christ coming to play God on earth, which is also what that "strong delusion" is.

it will be a work of "strong delusion" upon those who will BELIEVE on that coming Antichrist in place of Christ Jesus.

But the Pre-Trib secret fly away Rapture, though related to that pseudo-Christ, still also is a lie. It is how many will be persuaded to go with that coming Antichrist.

I love how your phrased that!

 

[BLACK SHEEP]

Can you show me Hinduism, Buddhism or Sikhism?

Kaotic, what was the apostate religion which irritated the Apostle Paul in his preaching of the true Gospel of Christ during his ministry?

Why is it that when I ask people questions they never answer mine but respond with another question?
Islam is specifically mentioned. The others are not!

You also have a complete misunderstanding of apostasy.
There's no such thing as an "apostate" religion! APOSTATE is generally applied to individuals in a rebellion. The only way a religion can be apostate is for it to convert to another completely different religion. Here's an example of what an apostate is. Apostasy also means "to go from one thing to another."

From WIKI....
This is a list of notable persons that have followed a religion and then publicly abandoned or publicly criticized it and attracted notable attention by this defection, or had a notable influence on society with their defection; or if the person has been notably been referred to as an apostate by other groups or people regardless whether the person accepts this label or not.
Ambedkar an ex-Hindu who became a Buddhist
Karen Armstrong ex-Roman Catholic nun who became an atheist
Julian the Apostate ex-Christian and Roman emperor
Aurelius Augustine (Augustine of Hippo) Former adherent of Manicheism who converted to Christianity and criticized Manicheism in his book called Confessions, though generally not labeled as an apostate because the term is originally used for people who leave Christianity, not for people who convert to it
Marjoe Gortner ex-Christian
Ayaan Hirsi Ali ex-Muslim
Maria Monk Sometimes considered an apostate, though little evidence exists that she ever belonged to the religion she supposedly fled
Taslima Nasrin born in a Muslim family who became an atheist
Friedrich Nietzsche grew up in a Lutheran family and became a confirmed Christian in his teens but later became a staunch atheist
Salman Rushdie Accused of being an apostate of Islam by Ruhollah Khomeini due to the publication of his book The Satanic Verses
Baruch Spinoza excommunicated from the Jewish community
Ibn Warraq ex-Muslim
And I would like to add Walid Shoebat who is a former Palestinian terrorist.

NOW! Show me one verse of prophecy where Rome is directly implied as having anything to do with the last days

 

[iamlamad]

I did not try to slip past anything. I am telling you that an antichrist IS anyone who is against/anti- the Word/Christ of God who is the WAY is the Truth and the Life. If the Word abides in you and you abide in the Word then HE WHO IS IN YOU(COME IN YOUR FLESH) IS GREATER THAN he who is in the world.
Even the demons believed that Jesus was the Son of God.. but are they saved?
Luke 4:40-41
40 Now when the sun was setting, all they that had any sick with divers diseases brought them unto him; and he laid his hands on every one of them, and healed them.
41 And devils also came out of many, crying out, and saying, Thou art Christ the Son of God. And he rebuking them suffered them not to speak: for they knew that he was Christ.
KJV

Veteran has the word of God behind what he wrote. Do you?

1 John 2:22
Who is a liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist who denies the Father and the Son.

So in this definition, it is someone who denies the Father AND the Son. So if someone believes in the Father but Denies the Son, they are Antichrist. If someone beleives in the Son but denies the Father, they are Antichrist.

1 John 4:3
and every spirit that does not confess that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is not of God. And this is the spirit of the Antichrist, which you have heard was coming, and is now already in the world.

2 John 1:7
For many deceivers have gone out into the world who do not confess Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.



What does this really mean? I readily confess that Jesus came from heaven to earth, to be born of man; that He was God incarnate - God in the flesh. False religions and cults deny this truth. The spirit behind them is the spirit of antichrist.

Now can you show us scripture backing your belief?

Lamad

I appreciate modern day Christian's conjure up all manner of ungodly notions regarding this word "satan" or "adversary" but the reality of its symbolism if not seen in fallen angel whose abode is a fiery caldron.

What is "the work of Satan"? It is the work of an adversary! Paul uses the same language, when writing to the Corinthians, in describing Jewish adversaries who had assumed apostolic powers, disguising themselves as servants of righteousness (2Co 10:12-15). "To come with the work of Satan", therefore, is to disguise one's true character.

Likewise, the Roman Catholic "Church" claims to be the Bride of Christ, showing his love and glorifying God -- but all the while it is only a guise. The Catholic system is in reality the "Satan", or "Adversary", of all true religion - claiming divine authority where it has none, persecuting believers of all other faiths, and actively suppressing the printing, distributing and reading of the Bible and many other atrocities to their name.

All will be revealed upon his coming 2 Thes 1:8

I was making reference to "the lie." Not to Satan. I could find no other translations that said "the lie." In reference to the subject, the work of Satan will be deceiving miracles. Miracles done by Satan to deceive the people into thinking the Antichrist really IS the Christ to come. Do you not believe this?

Lamad

 

[dragonfly]

In reference to the subject, the work of Satan will be deceiving miracles. Miracles done by Satan to deceive the people into thinking the Antichrist really IS the Christ to come.

Putting AntiChrist into the future is part of the lie which is being perpetrated on believers, don't you all know?

There is an elaborate campaign of misinformation being carried on over decades, long before any of us were alive, leading to the situation we have now, and as part of that bandwagon, Arnie feels free to 'speculate' and invite speculations. To what end? Who is being edified by this exercise?

Where in scripture is 'speculation' encouraged?



Anyone?

 

[BLACK SHEEP]

Putting AntiChrist into the future is part of the lie which is being perpetrated on believers, don't you all know?

There is an elaborate campaign of misinformation being carried on over decades, long before any of us were alive, leading to the situation we have now, and as part of that bandwagon, Arnie feels free to 'speculate' and invite speculations. To what end? Who is being edified by this exercise?

Where in scripture is 'speculation' encouraged?



Anyone?

Where in scripture is it discouraged? There's nothing wrong with speculation or theorizing especially when it comes to prophescy. It's good to consider the possibilities and it helps to have a reliable method of interpretation.

 

[dragonfly]

Where in scripture is it discouraged?

Here are a few thoughts from God's word to Jeremiah 23:15 Therefore thus saith the Lord of hosts concerning the prophets; Behold, I will feed them with wormwood, and make them drink the water of gall: for from the prophets of Jerusalem is profaneness gone forth into all the land.
16 Thus saith the Lord of hosts, Hearken not unto the words of the prophets that prophesy unto you: they make you vain: they speak a vision of their own heart, and not out of the mouth of the Lord.
17 They say still unto them that despise me, The Lord hath said, Ye shall have peace; and they say unto every one that walketh after the imagination of his own heart, No evil shall come upon you.
18 For who hath stood in the counsel of the Lord, and hath perceived and heard his word? who hath marked his word, and heard it?
19 Behold, a whirlwind of the Lord is gone forth in fury, even a grievous whirlwind: it shall fall grievously upon the head of the wicked.
20 The anger of the Lord shall not return, until he have executed, and till he have performed the thoughts of his heart: in the latter days ye shall consider it perfectly.
21 I have not sent these prophets, yet they ran: I have not spoken to them, yet they prophesied.
22 But if they had stood in my counsel, and had caused my people to hear my words, then they should have turned them from their evil way, and from the evil of their doings.
23 Am I a God at hand, saith the Lord, and not a God afar off?
24 Can any hide himself in secret places that I shall not see him? saith the Lord. Do not I fill heaven and earth? saith the Lord.
25 I have heard what the prophets said, that prophesy lies in my name, saying, I have dreamed, I have dreamed.
26 How long shall this be in the heart of the prophets that prophesy lies? yea, they are prophets of the deceit of their own heart;
27 Which think to cause my people to forget my name by their dreams which they tell every man to his neighbour, as their fathers have forgotten my name for Baal.
28 The prophet that hath a dream, let him tell a dream; and he that hath my word, let him speak my word faithfully. What is the chaff to the wheat? saith the Lord.
29 Is not my word like as a fire? saith the Lord; and like a hammer that breaketh the rock in pieces?
30 Therefore, behold, I am against the prophets, saith the Lord, that steal my words every one from his neighbour.
31 Behold, I am against the prophets, saith the Lord, that use their tongues, and say, He saith.
32 Behold, I am against them that prophesy false dreams, saith the Lord, and do tell them, and cause my people to err by their lies, and by their lightness; yet I sent them not, nor commanded them: therefore they shall not profit this people at all, saith the Lord.

33 And when this people, or the prophet, or a priest, shall ask thee, saying, What is the burden of the Lord? thou shalt then say unto them, What burden? I will even forsake you, saith the Lord.
34 And as for the prophet, and the priest, and the people, that shall say, The burden of the Lord, I will even punish that man and his house.
35 Thus shall ye say every one to his neighbour, and every one to his brother, What hath the Lord answered? and, What hath the Lord spoken?
36 And the burden of the Lord shall ye mention no more: for every man's word shall be his burden;
for ye have perverted the words of the living God, of the Lord of hosts our God.
37 Thus shalt thou say to the prophet, What hath the Lord answered thee? and, What hath the Lord spoken?
38 But since ye say, The burden of the Lord; therefore thus saith the Lord; Because ye say this word, The burden of the Lord, and I have sent unto you, saying, Ye shall not say, The burden of the Lord;
39 Therefore, behold, I, even I, will utterly forget you, and I will forsake you, and the city that I gave you and your fathers, and cast you out of my presence:
40 And I will bring an everlasting reproach upon you, and a perpetual shame, which shall not be forgotten.

More could be said, but suffice it to point out that there is a gift of prophecy in the Church today and to be given it is serious. To deny it or quench it is serious. To misrepresent it is serious. The gift of interpretation of tongues is a variety of prophecy. In short, don't mess with words from God. Don't add to them. Don't take away from them. Receive the whole word and obey it.

 

[BLACK SHEEP]

You quoted 34 verses and didn't comment on one. I just don't see a connection between the verses you emphasized and the idea of speculation. One who speculates also contemplates. There's so much that we don't know for sure about prophecy, and there's so much that we've been taught that's incorrect that I consider it a virtue for any student of God's word to be open minded and speculative. I have always considered other views. And I often reconsider my views and change my mind. Nobody has all the truth. I've always said the the biggest impediment most people have in discovering truth in the bible is that they think they already have it. I contemplate about God on a daily basis.

To speculate means to consider...

2 Timothy 2:7 Consider what I say; and the Lord give thee understanding in all things.

Proverbs 15:22 Without counsel purposes are disappointed: but in the multitude of counsellors they are established.

Job 5:13 He taketh the wise in their own craftiness: and the counsel of the froward is carried headlong.

I'm not afraid to speculate because speculation doesn't mean you make up your mind.

 

[Purity]

Kaotic, what was the apostate religion which irritated the Apostle Paul in his preaching of the true Gospel of Christ during his ministry?

I believe this questions has been asked twice now...why avoid it?

 

[veteran]

Putting AntiChrist into the future is part of the lie which is being perpetrated on believers, don't you all know?

There is an elaborate campaign of misinformation being carried on over decades, long before any of us were alive, leading to the situation we have now, and as part of that bandwagon, Arnie feels free to 'speculate' and invite speculations. To what end? Who is being edified by this exercise?

Where in scripture is 'speculation' encouraged?



Anyone?

You're really joking with that, right?

I thought you well understood the prophecy of the future coming "another beast", "another Jesus", false Christ (pseudochristos), "man of sin", "son of perdition", "vile person", "king of fierce contenance", the "dragon", that "Wicked", etc.

Shall we just try and throw away all those relevant Scriptures of that specific Antichrist just because of how man interprets the word "antichrist" to mean all other wicked besides that certain false one to come?

 

[dragonfly]

Hi veteran,

I thought you well understood the prophecy of the future coming "another beast", "another Jesus", false Christ (pseudochristos), "man of sin", "son of perdition", "vile person", "king of fierce contenance", the "dragon", that "Wicked", etc.

Shall we just try and throw away all those relevant Scriptures of that specific Antichrist just because of how man interprets the word "antichrist" to mean all other wicked besides that certain false one to come?

My point is, the spirit of anti-Christ was present during Christ's ministry on earth and long before that. The apostle John writes about it in the present tense. The focus on a future anti-Christ, as if there is nothing 'anti-Christ' in the present tense for all Christians in every century past, is just one aspect of the way the enemy has successfully lulled church-goers into a sense of false security over their spiritual condition. Luke 12:39

I don't deny there is an elaborate scheme afoot to make it seem as if Satan is still winning a contest with God for supremacy, but the more that that (false impression) is emphasised to people today, the more it fosters fear; while the truth is that Satan's head was fatally wounded through the death of Jesus Christ, and every appearance of his health and well-being is a lie; Christ abolished death for those who will aligne themselves with His victory.

Unless we (Christians) do the doctrine of Jesus Christ in our daily lives, who (let alone God) is going to believe that we are following Him?

This cuts into every aspect of our testimony, from the moment we open our eyes in the morning to the moment we fall asleep at night, and Satan and his armies (half the size of God's armies) are out to molest every good thing away from a believer right now, today, tomorrow and the next day.

What I'm saying is: if people know the Lord, they will not be deceived by the usurper, no matter what shape he shifts into.

Continually focusing on the attributes and example of Jesus Christ, is the best all-time defence against being deceived by His counterfeits.

The teaching of Paul on this is true. He states that those who deceive can be deceived; therefore, one of the simplest ways to remain undeceived, is to rid one's life of all deception, dishonesty, lying, misrepresentation of oneself or one's heartstate, lay aside hypocrisy, own up to errors, take responsibility when one is at fault, do not justify oneself in any situation of false accusation (etc). It is God who justifies. Justified by faith, we have peace with God.

These things may not seem to be related, but the focus of the New Testament is on each of us allowing our hearts to be thoroughly dealt with by the Lord through the work of the Holy Spirit in bringing our hearts' affections into line with God's desires for His sons - conformity to Jesus Christ. Romans 8:13, 36, 37, 38, 39.

 

[veteran]

Hi veteran,


My point is, the spirit of anti-Christ was present during Christ's ministry on earth and long before that.

Yes of course that part is true per Scripture. In OT times they are the subject of the "workers of iniquity". Per Apostle Paul in 2 Thess.2, that's his subject of the "mystery of iniquity". It's about Satan's followers here on earth since Cain murdered Abel.

The apostle John writes about it in the present tense. The focus on a future anti-Christ, as if there is nothing 'anti-Christ' in the present tense for all Christians in every century past, is just one aspect of the way the enemy has successfully lulled church-goers into a sense of false security over their spiritual condition. Luke 12:39

This is where men's doctrines are wrong about the 1 John 2:18 Scripture. Within the first part of that verse John was reminding them how they had ALREADY heard that "antichrist" was to come. That part is in the future tense for them, and the word "antichrist" is used in the singluar tense with that first part, and that even per the English grammar of it.

But in the last part of that same verse, John then tells them that there are at present (in their day) already "many antichrists". And that part about antichrist is plural, even with the Greek word polus ("many") in front of it to make it plural.

This is why the later disciples of Apostle John of the early Church fathers also looked for the future coming of a singular Antichrist in contrast to the 'many antichrists' (workers of iniquity already at work). The doctrine of a coming singular coming Antichrist, a specific individual, is as old as the Christian Church itself. This is why the Protestants and those of the Reformation started thinking the Pope was the Antichrist to come (because of persecutions by the Roman Church then).

 

[[email protected]]

Everyone feel free to speculate on what they think .."the lie".. will be

I am referring to the endtimes "lie" ... and the coming of the lawless one .

I began this topic in response to folks who seem to think .."the lie".. is pre-trib-rapture doctrine

I feel it is something completely different

Let us start in 2 Thessalonians 2 .... I quote portions below ....

2 Thess 2:9 .... The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with how Satan works. He will use all sorts of displays of power through signs and wonders that serve the lie

2 Thess 2:11... For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie

2 Thess 2:12... and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.

The lie - is a clear reference to the false messiah figure and his agenda, whoever that may be.

Many have speculated on divergent scenarios, but few have taken into consideration the religious and political scope within which this false messiah may arise. Nearly all of them have utilized some form of Christian or western civilization. Few of them consider the nature of other major religious, specifically Islam.

The point at which Christian scenarios of 'the lie' break down is that many parts of the Christian community would not believe it. In point of fact they'd not be surprised at all when the true agenda is revealed as the Bible says it will be. For example, Adolph Hitler portrayed himself to be the savior of the German people. In motion picture propaganda, he was portrayed as descending from the clouds to save the nation - a clear allusion to the second coming of Jesus Christ. The German people bought it hook line and sinker - but the rest of Christendom did not. When Hitler's true agenda was revealed, it came as no surprise to anyone except the Germans.

When the great lie is passed upon the world, the entire group that supports it will be terribly shocked when the truth is revealed.

Enter Mohammad al-Mahdi.

According to Islamic eschatology the messiah figure of Islam will unite Muslims everywhere and conquer the world. Al-Mahdi will be their leader and will be loved and respected AND BELIEVED by all until he reveals his true agenda. The revelation will be when al-Mahdi claims to be Allah in the flesh.

The Qur'an is adamant that no man can claim to be Allah, be descended of Allah or be the son of Allah, which is the principle objection Muslims have against Christian claims of the person and nature of Jesus Christ. When al-Mahdi stands up on his hind legs and claims to be Allah or the son of Allah the shock will ripple across Islam like a global tsunami. Their faith will be shaken, but it will be too late. The lie will have placed the man in charge and they will have to follow their lie to its logical conclusion - confrontation with the truth. The man of lies will have to confront the man of truth.

and that's just me, hollering from the choir loft...

 

[veteran]

The lie - is a clear reference to the false messiah figure and his agenda, whoever that may be.

Many have speculated on divergent scenarios, but few have taken into consideration the religious and political scope within which this false messiah may arise. Nearly all of them have utilized some form of Christian or western civilization. Few of them consider the nature of other major religious, specifically Islam.

The point at which Christian scenarios of 'the lie' break down is that many parts of the Christian community would not believe it. In point of fact they'd not be surprised at all when the true agenda is revealed as the Bible says it will be. For example, Adolph Hitler portrayed himself to be the savior of the German people. In motion picture propaganda, he was portrayed as descending from the clouds to save the nation - a clear allusion to the second coming of Jesus Christ. The German people bought it hook line and sinker - but the rest of Christendom did not. When Hitler's true agenda was revealed, it came as no surprise to anyone except the Germans.

When the great lie is passed upon the world, the entire group that supports it will be terribly shocked when the truth is revealed.

Enter Mohammad al-Mahdi.

According to Islamic eschatology the messiah figure of Islam will unite Muslims everywhere and conquer the world. Al-Mahdi will be their leader and will be loved and respected AND BELIEVED by all until he reveals his true agenda. The revelation will be when al-Mahdi claims to be Allah in the flesh.

The Qur'an is adamant that no man can claim to be Allah, be descended of Allah or be the son of Allah, which is the principle objection Muslims have against Christian claims of the person and nature of Jesus Christ. When al-Mahdi stands up on his hind legs and claims to be Allah or the son of Allah the shock will ripple across Islam like a global tsunami. Their faith will be shaken, but it will be too late. The lie will have placed the man in charge and they will have to follow their lie to its logical conclusion - confrontation with the truth. The man of lies will have to confront the man of truth.

and that's just me, hollering from the choir loft...

Problem with that is the false one Apostle Paul is pointing to in 2 Thess.2:3-4 is about one the orthodox Jews will receive as Messiah.

That man of sin will have to come in the role of The Christ, which is exactly the idea our Lord Jesus warned us of in His Olivet Discourse about events for the end of this world.

In Matthew 24, our Lord Jesus showed that coming pseudochristos ("false Christs") will work such a grand deception that it would deceive even Christ's very elect IF it were possible. That is a prophecy our Lord Jesus gave us to know just how strong the "lie" will be. If it will be powerful enough to almost... deceive even Christ's elect (who know the Truth), then what does it mean for everyone else?


It's time again to reveal the idea the secret societies of occult initiation have been pushing for a long time...

The secret societies teach the concept of 'Christ' as a force, not as the man Jesus of Nazareth Whom we know as The Christ of God's Word. "Christ Consciousness" is one of their monikers for their idea of Christ. They teach anyone can become their own 'Christ' by attuning to The Christ force or spirit. This they teach that Jesus of Nazareth did to become a Christ. Likewise, they teach that Buddha, Krishna, Mohammed, et al, did the same to become Christs.

It is in that way which they create a universal brotherhood within their membership roles, teaching all members regardless of one's country of birth or religion, that ALL the founders of the world's major religions all attuned to The Christ Spirit and became Christs. They even go so far as to teach that once very 2,000 years or so, another Avatar is born to the world to lead mankind further along the path of spiritual enlightenment.

In this way, the coming Antichrist will be 'all' to all... religiions on earth. To Christian brethren he will be our Lord Jesus. To orthodox Judaism he will the prophesied Messiah to come, to Muslims he will be their Mahdi, etc., etc. This is why Apostle Paul said in 2 Thess.2:3-4 that coming Antichrist will exalt himself as God and above all that is worshipped or even 'called' God.


II Th 2:4
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
(KJV)


If some primordial tribe on an isolated island expected the coming of their god, that is how all-inclusive the coming Antichrist will be.

In the Book of Daniel we were foretold a little about this concept with the "God of forces" idea...

Dan 11:38
38 But in his estate shall he honour the God of forces: and a god whom his fathers knew not shall he honour with gold, and silver, and with precious stones, and pleasant things.
(KJV)

The idea of a "God of forces" is what this concept of the coming Antichrist being all to all religions is about. If that coming false one represented just ONE religious people on earth, the others would reject him as God.