Spiritual Abuse and Christmas Trees
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tim_from_pa
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Good point. Too bad they did not stay in Assyria where they had plenty of olive trees in their native land.Mungo said:
:lol:
tim_from_pa
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They may be, but they are subtropical, no? Maybe in Florida, but they are not native here in Pa or Germany. But I really meant get a small one for the house, then maybe transplant it in Israel or somewhere when one is done with it. :lol:dragonfly said:
When are people going to figure out that the many attacks against the idea of Christmas are actually attacks against The Saviour Jesus Christ, for He is what the Christmas of the western Christian nations is about. These same attackers will then go and listen to heavy metal music, watch movies with all sorts of pagan and vampire themes, think cartoons like Family Guy is quality entertainment, etc. Hypocrites.
tim_from_pa
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That's right. Those other things are pagan as well. So, if my family celebrates xmas, I equally consider it a pagan or secular holiday. I don't see why that's an attack against Christ. I don't mind celebrating it as a secular holiday and getting drunk. I get nice gifts, but it is not Christian. It's like the 4th of July or Memorial Day. So, tell me where I am unbiblical in all this? I just recognize it for what it is, and I'm not attacking Christ. The real sin is if we think that getting gifts and celebrating it in a worldly fashion is wrong, but seriously, that's another topic.veteran said:
Pilgrimer
Active Member
Hello. I would like to see the historical and/or archaeological data that supports your claims.Raeneske said:
Thank you.
In Christ,
Pilgrimer
But many do mistake His Word about the traditions and cultures of the ancient peoples among whom the Israelites lived. Probably most do so innocently enough, out of simple ignorance. Some, however, out of motives far less innocent. Such as claiming that the Christmas tree, which only dates back some 400 years, is an adoption of ancient pagan idols that date back over 3000 years ago and which long since disappeared from the earth along with the gods and goddesses they represented. That theory was first postulated by the sensational and grossly uninformed author Alexander Hislop. I say grossly uninformed because the man had no training in either the history or the archaeology of the ancient Judean/Canaanite cultures and his statements regarding their beliefs and practices have all been completely refuted by well-known authorities in both disciplines.Raeneske said:
Jeremiah 10, mistakenly used in an effort to support the anti-Christmas theory, is speaking of an idol or image that was frequently used throughout anicient Canaan during the bronze and iron age and is referred to by archaeologists and the foremost scholars on ancient Judean/Canaanite religions as “Judean pillar-figurines,” or “Asherah poles,” but the specific Hebrew term used in Scripture is the plural form “Asherim.” They are mentioned in several Old Testament books, in Exodus, Deuteronomy, Judges, the Kings, the Chronicles, Isaiah, Jeremiah and Micah, and played a rather large role in the religious practices of the region. These "Asherim" are translated in the King James Version as “groves” giving an erroneous impression of a grove or stand of trees, but the New Revised Standard Version translates them more accurately as “poles," rightly conveying the idea that these images were in fact Mediterranean style totem poles, objects carved from a solid length of tree trunk, or a “stock," which is the word used in Jeremiah 10. They varied in length and size, depending on the type and size of the tree used, and were variously decorated depending upon the wealth and artistic ability of the manufacturer. They contained images carved into the wood, faces and bodies of the local deities, in the case of the ancient Canaanite lands the goddess Asherah, and they could be decorated with silver and gold plating and adorned with clothing. They could also be made from stone pillars or columns of various sizes and lengths, ergo the archaeological reference to "pillar figurines."
The more common wooden Asherah poles have not survived. However, a carving on a stone sarcophagus depicts a pillar-figurine of the god Dionysus, shown being raised up to be dropped into a stand that was fashioned to make it stand upright, exactly as described in Jeremiah …
View attachment 143
But that’s not all. Archaeologists have dug up literally hundreds of small asherim, the small household version of the pillar images, which shows us exactly what the asherim looked like …
View attachment 144
Very often in the Old Testament Scriptures the prophets of God mocked these "gods" who had “eyes but could not see, ears but could not hear, a mouth that could not speak, and feet but had to be carried everywhere they went and fastened in a stand so they could stand upright” . . .
“The customs of the people are vain: for one cutteth a tree out of the forest, the work of the hands of the workman, with the axe. They deck it with silver and with gold; they fasten it with nails and with hammers, that it move not. They are upright as the palm tree, but speak not: they must needs be carried, because they cannot go. Be not afraid of them; for they cannot do evil, neither can they do good.”
Anyone who asserts that Jeremiah 10, which was speaking about pagan gods and goddesses carved out of tree trunks was instead speaking about anything remotely resembling the Christmas tree is, at best, woefully uninformed, or at worst, plain dishonest.
For the most thorough treatment on these Asherah poles I refer you to the important work by Raz Kletter of the Israel Antiquities Authority, the foremost archaeologist and scholar on Bronze and Iron Age archaeology.
In Christ,
Pilgrimer
Attachments
Axehead said:
I assume if GOD didn't specifically mention not to do.... then it must be ok, right. . Some christian folk, believe it's an offense to have or do anything in resemblance of evil. 1 Thess 5: 22 - Romans 14:17
Finally and most importantly.
1Co 3:10 -15 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.
For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
Too extensive to post and quote:Pilgrimer said:Hello. I would like to see the historical and/or archaeological data that supports your claims.
Thank you.
In Christ,
Pilgrimer
But many do mistake His Word about the traditions and cultures of the ancient peoples among whom the Israelites lived. Probably most do so innocently enough, out of simple ignorance. Some, however, out of motives far less innocent. Such as claiming that the Christmas tree, which only dates back some 400 years, is an adoption of ancient pagan idols that date back over 3000 years ago and which long since disappeared from the earth along with the gods and goddesses they represented. That theory was first postulated by the sensational and grossly uninformed author Alexander Hislop. I say grossly uninformed because the man had no training in either the history or the archaeology of the ancient Judean/Canaanite cultures and his statements regarding their beliefs and practices have all been completely refuted by well-known authorities in both disciplines.
Jeremiah 10, mistakenly used in an effort to support the anti-Christmas theory, is speaking of an idol or image that was frequently used throughout anicient Canaan during the bronze and iron age and is referred to by archaeologists and the foremost scholars on ancient Judean/Canaanite religions as “Judean pillar-figurines,” or “Asherah poles,” but the specific Hebrew term used in Scripture is the plural form “Asherim.” They are mentioned in several Old Testament books, in Exodus, Deuteronomy, Judges, the Kings, the Chronicles, Isaiah, Jeremiah and Micah, and played a rather large role in the religious practices of the region. These "Asherim" are translated in the King James Version as “groves” giving an erroneous impression of a grove or stand of trees, but the New Revised Standard Version translates them more accurately as “poles," rightly conveying the idea that these images were in fact Mediterranean style totem poles, objects carved from a solid length of tree trunk, or a “stock," which is the word used in Jeremiah 10. They varied in length and size, depending on the type and size of the tree used, and were variously decorated depending upon the wealth and artistic ability of the manufacturer. They contained images carved into the wood, faces and bodies of the local deities, in the case of the ancient Canaanite lands the goddess Asherah, and they could be decorated with silver and gold plating and adorned with clothing. They could also be made from stone pillars or columns of various sizes and lengths, ergo the archaeological reference to "pillar figurines."
The more common wooden Asherah poles have not survived. However, a carving on a stone sarcophagus depicts a pillar-figurine of the god Dionysus, shown being raised up to be dropped into a stand that was fashioned to make it stand upright, exactly as described in Jeremiah …
Sarcophagus carving of Dionysus pole being liftsed.jpg
But that’s not all. Archaeologists have dug up literally hundreds of small asherim, the small household version of the pillar images, which shows us exactly what the asherim looked like …
1asherah.jpg
Very often in the Old Testament Scriptures the prophets of God mocked these "gods" who had “eyes but could not see, ears but could not hear, a mouth that could not speak, and feet but had to be carried everywhere they went and fastened in a stand so they could stand upright” . . .
“The customs of the people are vain: for one cutteth a tree out of the forest, the work of the hands of the workman, with the axe. They deck it with silver and with gold; they fasten it with nails and with hammers, that it move not. They are upright as the palm tree, but speak not: they must needs be carried, because they cannot go. Be not afraid of them; for they cannot do evil, neither can they do good.”
Anyone who asserts that Jeremiah 10, which was speaking about pagan gods and goddesses carved out of tree trunks was instead speaking about anything remotely resembling the Christmas tree is, at best, woefully uninformed, or at worst, plain dishonest.
For the most thorough treatment on these Asherah poles I refer you to the important work by Raz Kletter of the Israel Antiquities Authority, the foremost archaeologist and scholar on Bronze and Iron Age archaeology.
In Christ,
Pilgrimer
http://www.remnantofgod.org/xmas.htm
There you are my friend.
Pilgrimer
Active Member
That's neither an historical nor yet an archaeological website nor does it cite any historical or archaeological data.Raeneske said:
I didn't ask you what your source was for your views, that's obvious, I asked you to provide the historical and archaeological data that supports those views.
In Christ,
Pilgrimer
aspen
“"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few
All creation is good. Who cares if satan has misinterpreted creation in his own image - we can reclaim it for God.
Sorry, I cannot provide what you ask for. I can only provide sources, of which point back to Christmas being PAGAN, and not Christian.Pilgrimer said:
Pilgrimer
Active Member
But why would you simply believe what someone says about the origins of Christian worship when they don't provide any kind of actual evidence to prove it? Surely you realize that the body of Christ has many enemies, and they do not come dressed as wolves. How do you know if they are telling the truth ... or blaspheming Christ's body?Raeneske said:
In Christ,
Pilgrimer
Excellent logic. Now, since Satan is one of God's creations we can reclaim him for God. {sarcasm off} :mellow:aspen2 said:
The same logic can be applied to you, friend. As to the origins or practices of Christian worship, 'Church History' I would think would be the authoritative voice/source on it, not archeology or any other ology.Pilgrimer said:
Pilgrimer
Active Member
Oh, but that’s not true! These are matters of historical issue. For example, claims are thrown around ad nauseam that December 25 is an adoption of (insert one of a dozen different pagan religions) which, the story goes, celebrated some pagan holiday on that date. And yet, there is no actual historical or archaeological evidence that (insert one of a dozen different pagan religions) ever celebrated a holiday on December 25. Indeed, the actual historical and archaeological record tells quite a different story than what these anti-Christian voices (outside the church) and anti-Catholic voices (inside the church) would have us believe.JB_ said:
The same logic can be applied to you, friend. As to the origins or practices of Christian worship, 'Church History' I would think would be the authoritative voice/source on it, not archeology or any other ology.
For example, in the early centuries, as the Christian faith spread and gained converts, it was in fact pagan religions who began to adopt Christian beliefs and observances to attempt to win back the mass of pagans who were converting to Christianity, not because Christians were adopting pagan ways to win converts, but because the Christians were living such pious lives and were so widely known for their charity that pagans were converting to Christ in droves and abandoning their old pagan worship. And we have this on no less an authority than the Emperor of Rome himself who was certainly in a position to know the facts of these things and actually wrote a letter to his pagan high priest and demanded that he instruct the pagan priests to begin to emulate the Christians in the pious and loving lives they led so that Rome could win back the former pagans who had, in the Emperor’s opinion, abandoned the ancient gods of their fathers in favor of this new religion called Christianity. Would you like to see a copy of that letter? It is extant and is published on the web or I can post it.
And to further bear this out, in the Edict of Milan, the Roman Emperor Galerius wrote that the reason for stopping the 250 years of state-sponsored Roman persecution of Christians was that even though they had tried everything from confiscating their churches, businesses, homes and lands, had arrested and imprisoned them, tortured them, and even killed them and their families, still the Christians had refused to turn from Christ or to even so much as pay token homage to the gods of Rome. Now this was in the early 4th century when our critics are claiming, ad nauseam, that Christians were busy adopting pagan holidays and beliefs and practices in order to win converts. That could not be further from the truth, and many of those godly old men who attended the Council of Nicea in 325 A.D. bore in their bodies the proof of their faithfulness to Christ and their refusal to compromise the Gospel!
So you see, an examination of the historical record is the only truly unbiased and accurate source we have that can prove definitively one way or another the truth about these things and whether or not what these people are saying about Christian beliefs and practices and observances are actually true … or mere anti-Christian propaganda.
In Christ,
Pilgrimer
Pilgrimer said:
Hi Pilgrimer,
Are you sure about the dates.
According to the Encyclopedoia Britannica the Edict of Milan was made in 313 between Constantine and Lincinius.
http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/382119/Edict-of-Milan
Pilgrimer
Active Member
Mungo said:
The persecution was actually ended by Emperor Galerius in 311 under what is referred to as the "Edict of Toleration." What Constantine did with the Edict of Milan was make Christianity a legally recognized religion and ruled that the confiscated churches and other buildings formerly owned by Christians be returned and the funds be provided out of the state coffers. Also the oft-repeated claim that Constantine made Christianity the state religion is not correct. That wasn't done until the end of that century (in 391) under Emperor Theodosius.
But as to Galerius, he was a rabid anti-Christian persecutor who instituted one of the bloodiest persecutions of Christians in history under Emperor Diocletian, referred to by most historians as "the great persecution." But then Galerius became senior Emperor and was struck down with a loathsome malady which caused his body to literally rot away. He had something of a deathbed conversion, not to Christ, but apparently to reason at least, and ruled that the persecution against Christians be stopped, apparently having connected his dire condition to his persecution of Christians and actually sought the prayers of Christians in his edict. To no avail, a week later he died. But it was he who gave the reason the persecution was stopped and that it was because it had not only failed to force Christians to renounce Christ, in spite of all the bloody tortures and death, but that Christians had instead remained faithful to the Gospel and refused to honor the pagan gods. A copy is linked below of both the Edict of Toleration of Galerius as well as the Edict of Milan of Constantine, the latter of which actually made freedom of religion the new Roman Imperial policy, as opposed to making Christianity the "state religion" of Rome as many falsely claim. You can read these edicts for yourself and thus not have to rely on someone's opinion about these matters (or for that matter an encyclopedia article of someone's opinion).
http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/source/edict-milan.asp
It was a nephew of Constantine, Julian the Apostate, who tried to revive the dying pagan religion of the Romans and wrote the letter to his high priest instructing him to have the priests emulate the Christians to try to win back the hearts of the Roman people who were flocking to Christianity. And this when Christianity's critics are claiming it was Christians who were adopting pagan holidays and beliefs in order to make Christianity more palatable to pagans! That letter and many others that are extant can be found here, it's letter #22 to the high priest Arsacius.
http://www.tertullian.org/fathers/julian_apostate_letters_1_trans.htm
There are many other documents that can be brought to bear and many other things I would love to say about all this, but I know my posts are far too long as it is ...
In Christ,
Pilgrimer
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