You proooobably should've looked at that site, because it's loaded with quotes, tons of quotes from numerous sources. And yes, the sources are documented.Pilgrimer said:
Spiritual Abuse and Christmas Trees
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Pilgrimer
Active Member
I beg your pardon, I did look at that site although I am generally loathe to have to wade through such a quagmire because if someone posting such claims on forums like this is unable or unwilling to put together a post containing the pertinent information why should I have to do their work for them? Every reference in that propaganda piece cites authors and works composed within the past 100-150 years. There is nowhere on the site an actual reference to an historical document or an archaeological artifact. The most prevalent source used was the thoroughly debunked work of Alexander Hislop, "The Two Babylons," which is riddled with misinformation, errors, and absolute fabrications.Raeneske said:
And your "source" can't even keep it's stories straight. It says on one hand "yule" is Babylonian and then turns around just a few lines later and claims "yule" is Scandinavian!
Raeneske, there is a wealth of historical documents from the late and middle iron age and archaeological artifacts from the early iron and bronze age that give us a glimpse into the ancient world, their culture, their religions, their beliefs, their observances. And the only things we know for sure about these ancient peoples and their religions is what is contained in that record. So when you come across books and websites and articles that claim this or that and yet they do not offer any evidence from the vast body of records left to us, then you should exercise at least a little bit of skepticism.
Why don't you pick out something from that site you feel is convincing and let's talk about it.
In Christ,
Pilgrimer
Those who "debunk" things, can "debunk" them into oblivion if they wish too. That doesn't change the facts. If it is a very deep concern of yours, then look through the book on your own (if you have not already). I'm not going to pretend to be an expert on these things, I am not. Such is not my main focus. But with my own two cents, I will post that which I believe, and point to what I believe. This is not the only site I have looked, but this is simply the first link I thought of.Pilgrimer said:
aspen
“"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few
Christmas trees are symbols. We have the power to define the symbols we adhere to - objects do not have the power - believing objects have power is superstitious.
Thanks for your effort in the OP Axe. The thread really catches ones attention lol! ''Spiritual Abuse and Christmas Trees'' 
.
.
Pilgrimer
Active Member
"I honestly believe it is better to know nothing than to know what ain't so." (Josh Billings)Raeneske said:
In Christ,
Pilgrimer
From what pagan religion did Christianity take December 25 ... and when?Raeneske said:
In Christ,
Pilgrimer
Please provide some proof and let's examine it.Raeneske said:
In Christ,
Pilgrimer
Deut 13:6 "If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend ... entice thee secretly saying, Let us go and serve other gods ... thou shalt surely kill him."John_8:32 said:
Deut 13:12 "If thou shalt hear say in one of thy cities ... certain men ... are gone out from among you, and have withdrawn the inhabitants of their city, saying, Let us go and serve other gods ... thou shalt surely smite the inhabitants of that city with the edge of the sword, destroying it utterly."
Deut 15:7 If there be among you a poor man of one of thy brethren within any of the gates in thy land ... thou shalt surely lend him sufficient for his need."
Duet 16:1 Observe the month of Abib, and keep the passover ... thou shalt sacrifice the passover ... in the place which the Lord shall choose to put his name there (Jerusalem)."
Deut 22:12 Thou shall not wear a garment of divers sorts, as of woolen and linen together.
Deut 22:13 Thou shalt make three fringes upon the four quarters of thy vesture.
Deut 27:26 Cursed be he that confirmeth not all the words of this law to do them.
In Christ,
Pilgrimer
If Christmas being pagan is a "verifiable fact" then verify it.Raeneske said:
In Christ,
Pilgrimer
"How much the date of the festival depended upon the pagan Brumalia (December 25th) following the Saturnalia (December 17th-24th), and celebrating the shortest day of the year and the 'new sun'...cannot be accurately determined. The pagan Saturnalia and Brumalia were too deeply entrenched in popular custom to be set aside by Christian influence...The pagan festival with it's riot and merrymaking was so popular that Christians were glad of an excuse to continue its celebration with little change in spirit and in manner. Christian preachers of the West and the Near East protested against the unseemly frivolity with which Christ's birthday was celebrated, while Christians of Mesopotamia ACCUSED THEIR WESTERN BRETHREN OF IDOLATRY AND SUN WORSHIP FOR ADOPTING AS CHRISTIAN THIS PAGAN FESTIVAL" Emphasis added. -The New Schaff-Herzog Encyclopedia of Religious KnowledgePilgrimer said:
"The interchange of presents between friends is alike characteristic of Christmas and the Saturnalia, and MUST HAVE BEEN ADOPTED BY CHRISTIANS FROM THE PAGANS, as the admonition of Tertullian plainly shows." Emphasis added. -Bibliotheca Sacra (vol 12 pp 153-155)
"From the first institution of this festival, the Western nations seem to have transferred to it many of the follies and censurable (XXX) practises which prevailed in the pagan festivals of the same season such as adorning the churches fantastically, mingling puppet-shows and dramas with worship, universal feasting and merrymaking, Christmas visits and salutations, Christmas presents and jocularity, and Christmas revelry and drunkenness.... The Christmas holy days, which by a law of Tehodosius the Greek (emperor A.D. 383-395) were to comprise fourteen days, ...have borne so close a resemblance wherever they have been observed to the Roman Saturnalia, Sigillaria, etc., and to the yule feast of the ancient Goths, as to afford strong presumption of an unhappy alliance between them from the first."-- Ecclesiastical History, by Mosheim, Vol. 1, page 280.
"The wassailing-bowl of Christmas had its precise counterpart in the 'Drunken Festival' of Babylon; The candles, in some parts of England, lighted at Christmas eve and used so long as the festive season lasts, were equally lighted by the pagans on the eve of the festival of the Babylonian god, to do honor to him, for it was one of the distinguishing peculiarities of his worship to have lighted candles on his alters. The Christmas tree, now so common among us, was equally common in pagan Rome and pagan Egypt. In Egypt that tree was the palm tree; in Rome it was the fir; the palm tree denoted the pagan Messiah, as Baal-Tamar; the fir referring to him as Baal-Berith.... On Christmas day the continental Saxons offered a boar in sacrifice to the sun, to propitiate her. In Rome a similar observance had evidently existed; for a boar formed a great article of Saturn, as appears form the words form Martial, 'That boar will make you a good Saturnalia.' Hence the boar's head is still a standing dish in England at the Christmas dinner, when the reason of it is long since forgotten. Yea, the 'Christmas goose' and 'yule cake' were essential articles in the worship of the Babylonian Messiah, as that worship was practiced both in Egypt and at Rome."-- Ibid., pages 97, 100, 101.
"The third one of the great feasts of the church, Christmas, doesn't seem to be kept during the first three centuries. In contrast to it a memorial of Christ's baptism was celebrated in the Orient as a revelation of his Messiahship and glory of his divinity called Epiphania, the sixth of January. This festival was, in Egypt, also given the meaning as a memorial of Christ's birth, and in that way they had in a certain sense a substitute for Christmas, which had not yet begun."-- Ecclesiastical History, by C.A. Cornelius, part 1, page 139.
"It began first to be celebrated in the Roman Church about 360, and from there it spread to the Orient," After he has mentioned "Saturnalia," the Roman feast of joy, which began the seventeenth and ended the twenty-fourth of December with the "Sigillaria," he continues: "At last the so-called 'Brumalia,' or the winter solstice, was celebrated the twenty-fifth of December. It was also called 'deus natalis invicti solis' (the birth feast of the unconquered sun), because in that season when the short days are gone, the sun again comes forth victorious from the gloomy night to travel on its orbit like an unconquered hero."--Ibid, part 2, page 91.
"A star cult, sun-worship, became (in the third century A.D.) the dominant official creed, paving the road for the ultimate triumph of Judaeo-Christian monotheism. So strong was the belief in the Invincible Sun (Sol Invictus) that for example Constantine I (d. 337), himself at first a devotee of the sun cult, found it, indeed perfectly compatible with his pro-Christian sympathies to authorize his own portrayal as Helios. And in 354 the ascendant Christian church in the reign of his pious but unsavory son, Constantius II, found it prudent to change the celebration of the birth of Jesus from the traditional date (January 6) to December 25, in order to combat the pagan Sun god’s popularity—his "birthday" being December 25." -Frederick H. Cramer, Astrology in Roman Law and Politics, p. 4. Copyright 1954 by the American Philosophical Society, Philadelphia.
I find it bothersome that when I posted Scripture about not serving God according to the ways of the Pagans, that you posted verses which most consider we have no reason to adhere to. For example, not wearing wool and linen together, or killing someone who tries to persuade you to worship other gods. That is a disturbing tactic, to state that we do not have to adhere to what is said in the Scriptures in regards to worshipping God according to how he says and how we should not blend pagan practices with God's worship.
Between the worship of the Pagan and Christmas day, there are countless proofs which show that Christmas has pagan origins, and has borrowed from Pagan practices. I choose not to partake in theses practices. And it has been verified. The question is, do the people here choose to believe the verification, or do they cast it aside? There will always be a reason to doubt, if one is so willing to doubt. God never removes that choice from people. They are free to choose. But with all the evidence surrounding Christmas and its Pagan origins, I must ask why does someone continue to doubt it?
Pilgrimer
Active Member
And I find it bothersome that you would judge others by a law which you yourself refuse to live by. If you are subject to the Law, you are subject to all the Law, not just parts you have decided people have to adhere to while you cast aside the rest.Raeneske said:
And I must ask why we Christians should be expected to accept all these claims against our faith on the basis of nothing more than obviously anti-Christian assumptions with not one shred of historical or archaeological evidence to support them? There are no “proofs,” which is why not one of your sources actually cites one, but perhaps out of a desire to at least give some semblance of impartiality, they all state in couched terms that their opinions are, after all, speculation lacking any real evidence:Raeneske said:
"How much the date of the festival depended upon the pagan Brumalia (December 25th) following the Saturnalia (December 17th-24th), and celebrating the shortest day of the year and the 'new sun'...cannot be accurately determined …”
Of course any “dependence on paganism cannot be accurately determined,” because Christianity is not and never has been dependent on paganism and there is not one shred of actual historical or archaeological evidence to support it, which is why this source didn’t cite any but for credibility sake added this disclaimer.
Your sources don’t even have the facts right about the Brumalia festival. It was not celebrated on December 25. It was in fact a month-long festival that began on November 24 and ended with the winter solstice on the night of December 21/22. It is explained by the Byzantine administrator John of Lydia in Book IV of his work “On Roman Months:”
“The Romans customarily divided their citizenry into three [groups] and distinguished those who were suitable for arms, those [who were suitable] for farming, and those [who were suitable] for hunting; and the season of winter brings an end to these [pursuits]. For in it, neither do they arm themselves, nor do they practice farming, because of the season’s cold and the shortness of the days—and hence in the old days they named it bruma, meaning ‘short day.’ And Brumalia means “winter festivals”; so at that time, until the Waxing of the Light, ceasing from work … the farming people would slaughter pigs for the worship of Cronus and Demeter—and hence even now the “Pig-Slaughter” is observed in December. And the vine-dressers would sacrifice goats in honor of Dionysus—for the goat is an enemy of the vine; and they would skin them, fill the skin-bags with air and jump on them. And the civic officials would also [offer as] the firstfruits of the collected harvest wine and olive oil, grain and honey and as many [products] of trees as endure and are preserved—they would make loaves without water and they would bring [all] these things to the priests of the [Great] Mother. And this sort of custom is still observed even now; and in November and December, until the “Waxing of the Light,” they bring [these] things to the priests. For the [custom] of greeting [people] by name at the Brumalia is rather recent; and, the truth [is], they call them “Cronian festivals”—and because of this the Church turns away from them.”
Here you have a written record from a 6th century Roman administrator who testifies that Brumalia was celebrated from November 24 until the final night on the night of the winter solstice, December 21/22.
He further states that the Christian Church “turned away from” these festivals which totally contradicts what your sources are claiming that Christians “adopted” these festivals for the celebration of Jesus’ birth.
This is why we Christians “continue to doubt” these claims about Christmas having pagan origins, because it’s not true and all the actual historical evidence proves not only that it’s not true, but quite the opposite.
Again, that is a complete fabrication completely refuted by the record of John of Lydia and also disproven by the Roman Emperor Julian in a letter he wrote to his pagan high priest Arsacius in late June/early July in 362 A.D. Called by Christianity “Julian the Apostate,” this emperor tried to revive the worship of the old pagan Roman gods that so many Romans had abandoned but found his chief obstacle to this was the pervasive and prevalent influence of Christianity. The emperor spent lavishly to rebuild and refurbish the pagan temples that had fallen to ruin and trained a small army of pagan priests to restore the old pagan worship. He was successful and yet the newly restored pagan worship had not gained back the mass of Roman citizenry who had converted to Christ so the Emperor wrote this letter to his High Priest. In it, and in many other communications, the Emperor stated that the reason the Christian faith had proven so popular was that the Christians lived such sober and pious and honest lives, showing respect and benevolence to strangers and not only to their own poor but even taking care of the poor among the pagans, exactly the opposite of what your sources are claiming about these same Christians who they claim were busy compromising the Gospel and adopting pagan beliefs and customs in order to win converts, which is the complete opposite of the truth. So the emperor admonishes his high priest to order all the pagan priests to begin to emulate the lives of the Christians in order to win back the Roman people to the gods of their fathers:Raeneske said:
“The Hellenic religion [Roman pagan worship] does not yet prosper as I desire, and it is the fault of those who profess it; for the worship of the gods [reinstitution of temples and priestly services] is on a splendid and magnificent scale , surpassing every prayer and every hope. May Adrasteia pardon my words, for indeed no one, a little while ago, would have ventured even to pray for a change of such a sort or so complete within so short a time. Why, then, do we think that this is enough, why do we not observe that it is their benevolence to strangers, their care for the graves of the dead and the pretended holiness of their lives that have done most to increase atheism [Christianity]? I believe that we [pagans] ought really and truly to practise every one of these virtues. And it is not enough for you alone to practise them, but so must all the priests in Galatia, without exception. Either shame or persuade them into righteousness or else remove them from their priestly office, if they do not, together with their wives, children and servants, attend the worship of the gods but allow their servants or sons or wives to show impiety towards the gods and honour atheism [Christianity] more than piety. In the second place, admonish them that no priest may enter a theatre or drink in a tavern or control any craft or trade that is base and not respectable. Honour those who obey you, but those who disobey, expel from office. In every city establish frequent hostels in order that strangers may profit by our benevolence; I do not mean for our own people only, but for others also who are in need of money. I have but now made a plan by which you may be well provided for this; for I have given directions that 30,000 modii of corn shall be assigned every year for the whole of Galatia, and 60,000 pints 3 of wine. I order that one-fifth of this be used for the poor who serve the priests, and the remainder be distributed by us to strangers and beggars. For it is disgraceful that, when no Jew ever has to beg, and the impious Galilaeans support not only their own poor but ours as well, all men see that our people lack aid from us. Teach those of the Hellenic faith [pagans] to contribute to public service of this sort, and the Hellenic villages to offer their first fruits to the gods; and accustom those who love the Hellenic religion to these good works by teaching them that this was our practice of old. At any rate Homer makes Eumaeus say: "Stranger, it is not lawful for me, not even though a baser man than you should come, to dishonour a stranger. For from Zeus come all strangers and beggars. And a gift, though small, is precious." Then let us not, by allowing others to outdo us in good works, disgrace by such remissness, or rather, utterly abandon, the reverence due to the gods. If I hear that you are carrying out these orders I shall be filled with joy.
As for the government officials, do not interview them often at their homes, but write to them frequently. And when they enter the city no priest must go to meet them, but only meet them within the vestibule when they visit the temples of the gods. Let no soldier march before them into the temple, but any who will may follow them; for the moment that one of them passes over the threshold of the sacred precinct he becomes a private citizen. For you yourself, as you are aware, have authority over what is within, since this is the bidding of the divine ordinance. Those who obey it are in very truth god-fearing, while those who oppose it with arrogance are vainglorious and empty-headed.
I am ready to assist Pessinus1 if her people succeed in winning the favour of the Mother of the Gods. But, if they neglect her, they are not only not free from blame, but, not to speak harshly, let them beware of reaping my enmity also. "For it is not lawful for me to cherish or to pity men who are the enemies of the immortal gods." 2 Therefore persuade them, if they claim my patronage, that the whole community must become suppliants of the Mother of the Gods.”
In this letter from the Emperor of Rome it is clear that the reason Christianity had gained so many converts among the Romans was not because they were adopting pagan festivals and practices, as your sources would have us believe, nor was your source accurate in stating that these Roman pagan holidays “were too deeply entrenched in popular custom to be set aside by Christian influence.” Indeed, the truth is the exact opposite. The Romans had abandoned the old pagan Roman gods and festivals and turned to Christ because of the holy lives and benevolence shown by the Christians.
So come on, this is a letter from the Emperor of Rome which states that it was in fact the pagan priests who began to adopt the Christian beliefs and practices in an attempt to win back the Roman citizens who had left the old pagan gods and turned to Christ! That is the exact opposite of what your sources are claiming, and that is from a letter written by the Emperor of Rome, against which your sources offer what as proof? What document? What archaeological artifact? What letter from some high-ranking official, either Christian or pagan? None! Nothing! Not one shred of actual historical evidence. They are even forced to admit that it “cannot be accurately determined” “how much” (if any) Christmas “depended on” these pagan festivals. The reason they “cannot accurately determine” whether or not these pagan festivals had any affect upon Christian festivals is because they didn’t, and the only people who think they did are those who at best are unaware of the actual historical record, or at worse ignore it in favor of a presupposed opinion. Just like the rest of your sources unashamedly admit. That’s why they use such carefully crafted disclaimers such as:
ADOPTED BY CHRISTIANS FROM THE PAGANS…”Raeneske said:
You should take note here that this source did not say that Christians DID adopt anything from pagans, and certainly did not offer any actual proof that they did, no letter, no document, no artifact, but they simply state that these practices MUST HAVE BEEN adopted. They pre-suppose the fact and then look for evidence, but finding none, they simply assume that it just “must have been” and then act as if it is a matter of historical fact, giving students such as yourself the impression that there is “proof” when in fact there is none, but instead the “proof” argues the exact opposite.
And again …
transferred to it…Raeneske said:
Again, notice your source cannot in good conscience state that there is any actual proof that the early Christians DID in fact transfer any pagan practices to the Christmas festival, they can only assume that the west “seems to have” done so, at least, in their eyes.
And yet again …
wherever they have been observed to the Roman Saturnalia, Sigillaria, etc., and to the yule feast of the ancient Goths, as to afford strong presumption of an unhappy alliance between them from the first.Raeneske said:
Please taken note again, the word presumption means to pre assume. So the argument your source here is using is that they pre-assume that Christianity adopted pagan practices of gift-giving, feasting, lighting candles, taking time off work, merry-making.
But notice that neither this source, nor any of the others, ever bother to point out that these modes of celebrating a festival were also BIBLICAL and were also the customary manner of festival observance of Jews for generations and that in fact the first generation of Christians were almost exclusively Jewish and therefore the Christian manner or observing festivals was much more likely to have been adopted from Biblical Jewish practices. But your source doesn’t bother to mention that. Why not? I mean any serious and fair-handed treatment of the subject of early Christian practices and where they may have derived them would have to at least consider the Jewish practices of the early church as a possible source, and yet not one of your sources bothers to even mention, let alone consider it.
The problem with this pre assumption is that the actual historical and archaeological letters and records in fact prove the opposite of what they claim, that with the spread of Christianity and the many converts to Christ in the early centuries it was in fact the pagans who adopted Christian beliefs and practices to try to win back the masses of people who received the Gospel and were converted to Christ.
But an additional problem with this pre assumption is that these modes of observing a festival are in fact Biblical. Even the gift-giving (there is no record of Romans exchanging gifts during either the Brumalia or the Saturnalia, neither of which were ever celebrated on December 25 but were winter solstice celebrations that ended on the winter solstice, the night of December 21/22, four days before the Christian Feast of the Nativity, which is what it was called prior to be called Christmas), gift-giving was not adopted from pagans since they didn’t exchange gifts on either the Brumalia or on Saturnalia. The only “gift giving” the pagans practiced was offering up sacrifices and gifts to their pagan gods. The exchanging of gifts is unique to Christianity and the source is the Magi bringing gifts to the newborn Jewish King, as well as the Christian belief that salvation itself is a gift from God and that salvation came into the world the night Jesus was born. These are very fundamental and sacred beliefs for Christians, and to have them trampled underfoot by those who have no appreciation for either these great truths, or the One whose birth heralded them, is not only hurtful, but a fearsome commentary on those who call evil that which is of God.
But to offer a final couple of comments:
Christians did not adopt the Sol Invictus holiday to celebrate Jesus’ birth, quite the opposite. Historical documents prove that Christians were celebrating the birth of Jesus on December 25 more than 200 years before the first mention of any holiday on that date by the Romans, including the celebrations of Sol. In fact, there were no religious holidays for Sol until 274 A.D., at a time when Christianity was spreading throughout the Roman Empire, and in an attempt to restore the cult of the sun-god Sol, Aurelian (270 – 275 A.D.) inaugurated a day of festivities which included chariot races. The date these games were celebrated, according to the calendar of Filocalus, was October 19 – 22.
The first mention of a “birthday” for Sol (Natalis Invicti) on December 25 wasn’t until 354/362 A.D., almost 200 years AFTER three ancient Christians documents stated that the birth of Jesus was being observed on December 25 (Hippolytus, ca. 165 – 235 C.E., in his commentary on Daniel 4:23; and Theophilus of Antioch, ca. 171 – 183 C.E., in his discussion about the proper time to observe Easter, and “The Constitution of the Holy Apostles,” which is the 2nd oldest doctrinal writing of Christianity after the Didache in which instruction is given in Book V, Section 3 on observing the Holy Days:
“On Feast Days and Fast Days: A catalogue of the feasts of the Lord which are to be kept, and when each them ought to be observed. XIII: Brethren, observe the festival days; and first of all the birthday which you are to celebrate on the twenty-fifth of the ninth month.”
We cannot precisely date The Constitution of the Holy Apostles, some scholars believe it was written in the third and some in the second century, but we do know it was written before the time of the Nicene Council as the work still uses the Jewish Liturgical Calendar, thus the 9th month is our December.
So the actual historical evidence is that Christians were celebrating the birth of Jesus on December 25 long before any record of Roman’s celebrating anything on that date.
Nor is there is any historical or archaeological evidence that any ancient Meso-religion (including those of Babylon) ever celebrated anything on December 25. Ancient religions the world over, from the Orient to the Americas, did in fact celebrate all the phenomena of nature, such as the summer and winter solstice, the spring and fall equinox, the new moons, planetary conjunctions, lunar and solar eclipses, and every other planetary anomaly. So the fact that Christian, and for that matter Jewish, holidays occurred near these pagan celebrations doesn’t mean they were adoptions of paganism. Such presumptions are jumped on by those who attempt to discredit the Judeo/Christian religion in general, and the Bible in particular.
But as a final comment to this admittedly lengthy post, let’s look at the truth about the connection between Christianity’s celebration of Christmas and the Norse celebration of “Yule,” since your source also mentioned that.
The ancient Norse history called “Ynglinga saga,” the first book of “Heimskringla” (the history of the ancient Norse kings), states that King Haakon (920-961 A.D.), who had become a Christian when his kingdom still remained steeped in paganism, passed a law that established that Yule celebrations were to take place at the same time as when the Christians held their celebration.
Now this was hundreds of years after Christians were celebrating Jesus' birth on December 25 and not only refutes the notion that Christmas is an adoption of old pagan Yule festivals but instead demonstrates with evidence from ancient written Norse documents that in fact the opposite was the case, it was the Yule celebration that was changed by the Norse King Haakon in the 10th century to coincide with Christmas.
The history from ancient times, and even today, is that in fact it is pagans who have since it’s very beginning adopted Christian holidays and beliefs, and very often taken religious observances and emptied them of their religious meaning and filled them up with their own secular meaning … such as Santa Claus and the Easter bunny and eggs and chicks, all of which had special religious significance for Christians until the Protestant reformation when the Protestants refused to follow the Liturgical calendar and therefore lost the meaning and purpose behind many of the holiday customs that we still celebrate today.
There is much more that can be said, and more evidence from ancient writings as well as archaeological artifacts, but this is long enough already and with even this much actual historical evidence it begs the question, “Why would you continue to believe what is clearly anti-Christian propaganda?
In Christ,
Pilgrimer
Jeremiah 10:2-5 thus saith the Lord,Pilgrimer said:
Learn not the way of the heathen,
and be not dismayed at the signs of heaven;
for the heathen are dismayed at them.
3 For the customs of the people are vain:
for one cutteth a tree out of the forest,
the work of the hands of the workman, with the axe.
4 They deck it with silver and with gold;
they fasten it with nails and with hammers, that it move not.
5 They are upright as the palm tree, but speak not:
they must needs be borne, because they cannot go.
Be not afraid of them; for they cannot do evil,
neither also is it in them to do good.
While it is an admitted personal belief that what is spoken of in this passage is the Christmas tree, Jeremiah 10:2 is not personal. Thus saith the LORD, Learn not the way of the heathen. Deuteronomy 12:29-32 is not the only place this understanding about serving God the way the heathen do.
"Christmas is the most popular of all festivals among Christians and many non-Christians alike, and its observance combines many strands of tradition. From the ancient Roman pagan festivals of Saturnalia (December 17) and New Year’s come the merrymaking and exchange of presents." - "church year." Encyclopædia Britannica. Encyclopædia Britannica Online. Encyclopædia Britannica Inc., 2013. Web. 03 Oct. 2013. <http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/117239/church-year>.
Christians turning away something at first does not contradict the fact that they adopted them into their worship. Like Israel, the Christians apostasy was not immediate. And evidence proves that Christmas is Pagan -- even Pope (Ratzinger, I believe) admitted that Christmas was "...probably linked to pagan traditions and the winter solstice."
Read more: http://www.businessinsider.com/the-pope-says-the-entire-christian-calender-is-wrong-2012-11#ixzz2gfQghD7c
And where is the proof that Brumalia was a month long celebration?
And yes, true Christianity is not based off of paganism. Yet, the Catholic Church clearly admits that they took in pagan practices into their worship. And this Christmas is one of them. They even state things like the "great god" pan is not really dead, but baptized. It is self admitted by that church.
"It is interesting to note how often our Church has availed herself of practices which were in common use among pagans...Thus it is true, in a certain sense, that some Catholic rites and ceremonies are a reproduction of those of pagan creeds...." (The Externals of the Catholic Church, Her Government, Ceremonies, Festivals, Sacramentals and Devotions, by John F. Sullivan, p 156, published by P.J. Kennedy, NY, 1942)
Cardinal Newman admits in his book that; the "The use of temples, and these dedicated to particular saints, and ornamented on occasions with branches of trees; incense, lamps, and candles; votive offerings on recovery from illness; holy water; asylums; holydays and seasons, use of calendars, processions, blessings on the fields; sacerdotal vestments, the tonsure, the ring in marriage, turning to the East, images at a later date, perhaps the ecclesiastical chant, and the Kyrie Eleison [Note 17], are all of pagan origin, and sanctified by their adoption into the Church. {374}" -An Essay on the The Development of the Christian Doctrine John Henry "Cardinal Newman" p.359
"It has often been charged... that Catholicism is overlaid with many pagan incrustations. Catholicism is ready to accept that accusation - and even to make it her boast... the great god Pan is not really dead, he is baptized" -The Story of Catholicism p 37
"In order to attach to Christianity great attraction in the eyes of the nobility, the priests adopted the outer garments and adornments which were used in pagan cults." -Life of Constantine, Eusabius, cited in Altai-Nimalaya, p. 94
The difference between these quotes, and your comments is that the Catholic Church readily admits they adopted things from the heathen, whereas you deny it. It is that obvious, that they do not attempt to deny it, but attempt to combat it by claiming the church sanctified it, as if they could do such things.
Not to turn this into to the Protestant vs. the Catholic, but the proof is needed to show, it was clearly adopted in by the church. There are MANY more quotes than the ones I posted, which quite easily prove that Christmas is not a Christian holiday. It was later added and adopted as the church continued growing in corruption and apostasy.
Pilgrimer
Active Member
In other words, all the many other passages in the Bible about these “asherim” notwithstanding, and all the history about these ancient cultures and their religious beliefs aside, and in spite of all the actual archaeological artifacts of these asherim discovered in this region, it’s your “personal belief” that this passage is referring to Christmas trees?Raeneske said:
Because it’s not true and there is no “evidence,” as you are perhaps beginning to see, but there is a lot of anti-Christian and anti-Catholic bias at work and it is on those grounds that many choose to believe what is not true in spite of all the evidence to the contrary.Raeneske said:
But Raeneske, when you throw around charges that Christians are “practicing paganism” but refuse to consider the facts of whether or not that is actually true, you lay yourself open to violating the 9th Commandment, “thou shalt not bear false witness,” but not against your neighbor, worse, against the body of Christ.Raeneske said:
Oh, so your argument is, “although the actual historical record testifies that Christians in fact turned away from pagan practices, I still choose to believe they adopted them.”Raeneske said:
And this is what you call truth?
That’s not true. All the Scriptural evidence actually supports a December 25 birth and ancient writings dating to within 100 years of the Apostles states that Christians were celebrating the birth of Jesus on December 25.Raeneske said:
So again, where is this “evidence” you claim, and by evidence I don’t mean some encyclopedia article written by someone a couple of years ago. That’s opinion, not evidence.
Again, that is absolutely not true but it is a gross example of how people will twist someone’s words to try to prove their cause. Ratzinger’s new book on the infancy of Jesus stated what most historians and studious Christians have known for a long time now … Jesus was not born in 1 A.D. Thanks to the exhaustive work of Emil Schurer in 1896, we have known for a long time now that Herod died in late March/early April of 4 B.C., a date which has since been supported by archaeological discoveries of coins dating the reigns of Herod’s sons. That was the “controversial” comment he made on the dating of Jesus’ birth.Raeneske said:
The only other “controversial” comment he made about Christmas was that there probably were no oxen or donkey’s present at Jesus’ birth.
So the only question that remains is who was the malicious soul that twisted the man’s words into the ridiculous comment you quoted? You really should take the time to fact-check this stuff.
Oh, I see. I read that article you linked to above. It actually proves what I said. The only comments made by Ratzinger were that Jesus was not born in the year 1 A.D. and that there were no animals present at his birth.Raeneske said:
When I read the article further, I see that it was in fact a John Barton, Professor at Oriel College who made the statement you quoted above, that Christmas was “probably linked to pagan traditions and the winter solstice,” a comment that you attributed to Ratzinger. I can only hope that was a careless error on your part but surely you realize it undermines your whole argument, not to mention your credibility.
It is the testimony of the Roman historican John of Lydia (born c. 490 A.D.) who composed a collection of works on Roman antiquities including one work, “De Mensibus,” (on Roman Months) a history of the various Roman pagan festivals. He wrote about all the Roman festivals and it is he who stated that the Brumalia festival began on November 24 and ended with the winter solstice on December 21/22. He also stated that Christians “turned away from” these pagan festivals.Raeneske said:
No Raeneske, the difference is that you are taking the writings of an individual here and there and claiming their opinions represent the position of the Catholic Church. These authors do not claim such authority. They are simply stating their opinions, opinions which are obviously misinformed about the roots of much of Christian High Church tradition, not only among the Roman Catholic Church, but also among the Coptic Church, the Eastern Orthodox, Greek Orthodox, Russian Orthodox, and every other High Church denomination. They all have adopted these religious trappings from our mother faith, Judaism. Just look at the list: Temples? Judaism. Saints? Judaism. Tree of Life? Judaism. Incense? Judaism. Lamps/Candles? Judaism. Votive (thank-)offerings? Judaism. Holy water? Judaism. Asylums? Really? Holy days? Judaism. Festival seasons? Judaism. Use of Calendars? Judaism. Processions? Judaism. Blessings on fields? Judaism. Sacerdotal Vestments? Judaism. Tonsure? Judaism (Acts 18:18). Marriage ring? Come now, that’s not required by the church, it’s cultural. Facing east? Judaism. Ecclesiastical chant? Judaism. Kyrie Eleison? Judaism.Raeneske said:
No Raeneske, what is obvious is that there are also members of the Catholic Church who are obviously ignorant of the history and roots of our faith and even of their own church, and whose lack of knowledge of Biblical Judaism and it’s influence on nascent Christianity is woefully obvious as they do not even realize just how closely the priestly vestments of Christendom resemble those of the Levitical Priesthood. But for those who are open and fair-minded and wish to know the truth, here’s an example of just how much the various Christian churches have copied our Jewish ancestors:Raeneske said:
The photo on the left is of the Levitical Priestly and High Priestly vestments. Top center is Egyptian Coptic Orthodox. Top right is Russian Orthodox. Bottom center is Roman Catholic. Bottom right is Eastern Orthodox.
Notice especially the priestly mitre (headdress) is an almost exact replica of that worn by the Levitical priests during the Temple times. So too is the white linen robes. And the various popes all wear variations of the High Priest’s ephod, although I chose these photos to demonstrate where the orthodox headdress came from, other vestments better demonstrate the similarity between the High Priest’s ephod and that worn by the various popes.
You have not proven Christmas is not a Christian holiday, quite the opposite. What you have proven is that you don’t believe Catholics are Christians.Raeneske said:
I believe you’re wrong about that too, and I'm a Protestant so it doesn't really matter to me, other than that I have a very high regard for the truth.
In Christ,
Pilgrimer
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