St. SteVen
Well-Known Member
You are a Cessationist, then? (Yes)
I'm a Continuationist. Thus the different readings on this. (perspective)
I thing my standing is more than just "preconceived notions".
Spiritual gifts: Unconfusing them part 2
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I'm a Continuationist. Thus the different readings on this. (perspective)
I thing my standing is more than just "preconceived notions".
Hillsage
Well-Known Member
I think realizing that Acts 2:38 is talking about three separate events is of first importance. The belief that the first two events guarantee the third is just wrong. Each event stands alone as its own clause. Though punctuation is not in the Greek, it is added as the translators THINK it ought to be. You use commas to separate three or more words, phrases, or clauses written in a series. and Use a semicolon between closely related independent clauses which are not joined by a coordinating conjunction.
ACT 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, "Repent, (comma) and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, (comma or semicolon depending on translation) and ye shall receive/seize/lambano the gift/power 'of the/from the' Holy Ghost.
First off "REPENT"
3340 metanoeo: to think differently or afterwards, i.e. reconsider (mor. feel compunction)
As you can see above, leads to; remission/aphesis: means freedom from your sins.
Act 2:39 For the promise (the POWER) is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call. 40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.
So, just as Anannias wasn't an apostle when he laid hands on Paul, so also we who "WERE afar off", but still called of God to become believers. And in that calling we are promised the power of CHRIST IN YOU to "Save 'yourselves' from this untoward generation" that we live in today.
Happened for years when Billy Graham would fly into town, lead hundreds to the Lord, and then he left never having baptized anyone at his crusades. Neither in water baptism or with the supernatural power of the Holy Spirit being poured His power ON them. So what happened to all those baby believers? If they went to the Baptist church they got water baptized (clause #2), but they sure aren't going to get the future tense "you SHALL receive the (clause #3) baptizm of supernatural power. as was heard on the day of Pentecost. And there were two different tongues heard on that Pentecost Saturday.
Read the below definitions and then apply that understanding to verse below.
"sound" = 2279 echos: a loud or confused noise ("echo"), i.e. roar; fig a rumor
"wind" = 4157 pnoe: respiration, a breeze
ACT 2:2 And suddenly there came a sound/echos from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.
So, does 'wind' meet the ehos definition of the "sound" that was first HEARD...."a loud confused noise"? I don't think so.
3 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.
4* And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost (not the person but the power from), and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.
EW Bullinger; 'Word Studies On The Holy Spirit'
"Strange to say, the A.V. of 1611 has "the holy Ghost" in the first clause, and "the spirit" in the second. Current editions, however, with the R.V., have capital letters in both clauses. and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance."
In his book Bullinger tells of the 51 times that spirit, or holy spirit gets FALSELY capitalized and therefore interpreted as the Holy Spirit/PERSON instead of relaying what was coming FROM the person. That being; holy spirit POWER.
So, what was the first "Utterance" they received? It was an 'echos' confused noise prayer tongue from the disciples own 'holy' born again 'spirits' speaking in their heavenly 'loud or confused noise' language. And 'that language' is the one further defined by the word "noised".
"noised" = 5456 phone: a tone (articulate, bestial or artificial); by impl. an address (for any purpose), saying or language
ACT 2:6 Now when this (prayer tongue) was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language.
So, the first tongue spoken on Pentecost was NOT the language of "Parthians, and Medes, and Elamites, etc. etc."
That was the second tongue which the disciples spoke in when their prayer tongues drew the crowd in the temple where they were celebrating together. But the second tongue was the gifts of tongues from THE Holy Spirit, but intended FOR the people who understood 'that language'.
I'm just going to stop here Steve. To understand what I just said is probably going to mean more to youi than anyone else. But that's because you've heard my OPINION a few more times.
And, hopefully, one of these days, it will all make more sense. This will happen as you try to understand where I'm coming from, as opposed those who can't do anything but TRY to defend where they are AT, therefore 'hearing' nothing from the holy spirit of Christ in them.
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In Acts 2:38, irrespective of commas, the Greek word 'kai', 'and' in English, is used which is a conjunction, and conjunctions tie parts of sentences together inextricably.I think realizing that Acts 2:38 is talking about three separate events is of first importance. The belief that the first two events guarantee the third is just wrong. Each event stands alone as its own clause. Though punctuation is not in the Greek, it is added as the translators THINK it ought to be. You use commas to separate three or more words, phrases, or clauses written in a series. and Use a semicolon between closely related independent clauses which are not joined by a coordinating conjunction.
ACT 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, "Repent, (comma) and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, (comma or semicolon depending on translation) and ye shall receive/seize/lambano the gift/power 'of the/from the' Holy Ghost.
First off "REPENT"
3340 metanoeo: to think differently or afterwards, i.e. reconsider (mor. feel compunction)
As you can see above, leads to; remission/aphesis: means freedom from your sins.
Act 2:39 For the promise (the POWER) is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call. 40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.
So, just as Anannias wasn't an apostle when he laid hands on Paul, so also we who "WERE afar off", but still called of God to become believers. And in that calling we are promised the power of CHRIST IN YOU to "Save 'yourselves' from this untoward generation" that we live in today.
Happened for years when Billy Graham would fly into town, lead hundreds to the Lord, and then he left never having baptized anyone at his crusades. Neither in water baptism or with the supernatural power of the Holy Spirit being poured His power ON them. So what happened to all those baby believers? If they went to the Baptist church they got water baptized (clause #2), but they sure aren't going to get the future tense "you SHALL receive the (clause #3) baptizm of supernatural power. as was heard on the day of Pentecost. And there were two different tongues heard on that Pentecost Saturday.
Read the below definitions and then apply that understanding to verse below.
"sound" = 2279 echos: a loud or confused noise ("echo"), i.e. roar; fig a rumor
"wind" = 4157 pnoe: respiration, a breeze
ACT 2:2 And suddenly there came a sound/echos from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.
So, does 'wind' meet the ehos definition of the "sound" that was first HEARD...."a loud confused noise"? I don't think so.
3 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.
4* And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost (not the person but the power from), and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.
EW Bullinger; 'Word Studies On The Holy Spirit'
"Strange to say, the A.V. of 1611 has "the holy Ghost" in the first clause, and "the spirit" in the second. Current editions, however, with the R.V., have capital letters in both clauses. and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance."
In his book Bullinger tells of the 51 times that spirit, or holy spirit gets FALSELY capitalized and therefore interpreted as the Holy Spirit/PERSON instead of relaying what was coming FROM the person. That being; holy spirit POWER.
So, what was the first "Utterance" they received? It was an 'echos' confused noise prayer tongue from the disciples own 'holy' born again 'spirits' speaking in their heavenly 'loud or confused noise' language. And 'that language' is the one further defined by the word "noised".
"noised" = 5456 phone: a tone (articulate, bestial or artificial); by impl. an address (for any purpose), saying or language
ACT 2:6 Now when this (prayer tongue) was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language.
So, the first tongue spoken on Pentecost was NOT the language of "Parthians, and Medes, and Elamites, etc. etc."
That was the second tongue which the disciples spoke in when their prayer tongues drew the crowd in the temple where they were celebrating together. But the second tongue was the gifts of tongues from THE Holy Spirit, but intended FOR the people who understood 'that language'.
I'm just going to stop here Steve. To understand what I just said is probably going to mean more to youi than anyone else. But that's because you've heard my OPINION a few more times.
Billy Graham is the worst example of a preacher since he didn't know how to tell someone to be saved nor does his son and present day legacy organization. They're always on TV telling you to say a silly, unscriptural prayer, the so called 'sinners prayer' to be saved. There is no such thing found in the scriptures nor any record of anyone doing this to be saved. Go study some more and seek the simple truth of the scriptures.
Hillsage
Well-Known Member
You're right, you said exactly what I said and yet you still don't see it. WHY? Because 'A MAN CONVINCED AGAINST HIS WILL, IS ALWAYS OF THE SAME OPINION STILL. Look at what I bolded in your parsing of the Greek. Those "parts of the sentences" you speak of, ARE the clauses I was referring to.
So please, at LEAST honor your 'last word' in your last post, concerning me. OH, and now it appears to be Steve also.
So we agree finally! It took you long enough to see the simplicity of the scriptures.You're right, you said exactly what I said and yet you still don't see it. WHY? Because 'A MAN CONVINCED AGAINST HIS WILL, IS ALWAYS OF THE SAME OPINION STILL. Look at what I bolded in your parsing of the Greek. Those "parts of the sentences" you speak of, ARE the clauses I was referring to.
So please, at LEAST honor your 'last word' in your last post, concerning me. OH, and now it appears to be Steve also.
Acts 2:38
38Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Believe, repent, be immersed in water for the forgiveness of sins, and you shall receive the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. That's how you get the Spirit of God dwelling within you. That's how you become part of the body of Christ which is the church. That's how you are saved, contrary to what Billy or Franklin Graham, et al teaches, that all you have to do is recite some unscriptural, nonsensical prayer.
marksman
My eldest granddaughter showing the result of her
Really? Why's that, because you just said so? Your words mean nothing; the scriptures mean everything and are contrary to your words. Ref the scriptures below which contradict YOUR words.
The miraculous gifts of the Spirit were imparted by the laying on of the apostle's hands as confirmed by Acts 5:12, 6:3-8, 8:13-20, 19:5-6, and 2 Tim 1:6.
St. SteVen
Well-Known Member
The Samaritans were already baptized believers. Why were they in need of a sign from the Apostles?
Hillsage
Well-Known Member
And the Marksman hits the mark biblically.
But you didn't quote scripture, please allow me to, for you. You have ears to hear. ACT 9:17 And Ananias went his way, and entered into the house; and putting his hands on him said, Brother Saul, the Lord, even Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost.
Gee, wonder when Ananias became an apostle???....NOT!!! As a matter of fact, the guy called to BE AN APOSTLE had hands laid on him by a 'good ole boy' Christian.
ACT 22:12 And one Ananias, a devout man according to the law, having a good report of all the Jews which dwelt there,
Maybe, if someone studied their bibles a little better they might see what you see.
St. SteVen
Well-Known Member
A continuation?
Doesn't that make you a Continuationist?
I thought you were a Cessationist.
St. SteVen
Well-Known Member
Your conclusions seem unsupported.
How did you conclude that the "GIFT" of the Holy Spirit is the indwelling?
The GIFT and the promise are linked. What is the promise? Verse 39 below.
Who are ALL whom the Lord our God will call?
Acts 2:38-39 NIV
Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ
for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
39 The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off—
for all whom the Lord our God will call.”
Hillsage
Well-Known Member
Easy to conclude that, when you don't know the deep things as well as they may think.
As you know, I've read that 100 year old book 'Word Studies on the Holy Spirit' by EW Bullinger. It is still in print because, as Warren Wiersbe said in the Foreword;
"FORWARD: The emphasis in recent years on the doctrine of the Holy Spirit has helped to produce a great number of books on that subject. Some of these books are immature and will not last. Their theology (to borrow a phrase from P.T. Forsyth) is “like a bad photograph-over-exposed and under- developed.” But a few books have made a definite contribution to the subject and will surely last. Word Studies on the Holy Spirit is one of the older works that has had a steady ministry and is sure to last.
WARREN W. WIERSBE [Warren was born 1929, a former pastor of Moody Church as well as an author of over 160 books]"
EW's comment on Acts 9:17 which I quoted in my last post says this;
Acts 9:17 "The Lord, even Jesus...hath sent me (Ananias) that thou (Saul) mightest receive thy sight, and be filld with PNEUMA HAGION"
: i.e. with "power from on high," as the Eleven had been filled in John xx. 22 and the Twelve in Acts ii. Both A.V. and R.V. add the article and use capitals.
As you know, when the translators ADD the definite article, all you have to do is look at a Greek Interlinear to see their lying pens at work. When they ADD the word [the] before spirit or holy spirit they change the context from a VERB into a NOUN.
My example in English to illustrate, is this;
My, that's an bad cut on your arm. But THE DOCTOR (noun) is in his office so lets have him DOCTOR (verb) that wound up for you. As I've shared before, how over 50 times translators did this atrocity of an interpretation and screwed up the churches theology for a long time. They simply don't know the difference between "the Holy Spirit" as a person and "holy spirit" as the power gift from Him.
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Who said they needed a sign? Read the text, Acts 8. They hadn't received any manifestation of the Spirit only were baptized, so, like you and I, if you've been baptized into Christ as I have, as were the Jews on the day of Pentecost, we, as did they, received the Holy Ghost, the indwelling of the Spirit to enable it to reside within us accordingto Acts2:38. The Samaritans received the Spirit (indwelling of it) but no gifts or manifestations of it because the apostles had not laid their hands on any of them, hence, the reason Peter and John were sent. They prayed that they MIGHT receive the falling of the Holy Ghost, then laid their hands on them. Had nothing to do with signs. Acts 2 and 10 had something to do with signs to those present, to validate the event: in order that the church may be established.
St. SteVen
Well-Known Member
More about the GIFT and the promise. (same thing)
Acts 1:4-5 NIV
On one occasion, while he was eating with them, he gave them this command:
“Do not leave Jerusalem, but wait for the gift my Father promised, which you have heard me speak about.
5 For John baptized with[a] water, but in a few days you will be baptized with[b] the Holy Spirit.”
Acts 2:16-18 NIV
No, this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel:
17 “‘In the last days, God says,
I will pour out my Spirit on all people.
Your sons and daughters will prophesy,
your young men will see visions,
your old men will dream dreams.
18 Even on my servants, both men and women,
I will pour out my Spirit in those days,
and they will prophesy.
Acts 2:33 NIV
Exalted to the right hand of God, he has
received from the Father the promised Holy Spirit
and has poured out what you now see and hear.
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St. SteVen
Well-Known Member
marksman
My eldest granddaughter showing the result of her
That is not what the scriptures say.
Typical reply ignoring the topic and the content.And the Marksman hits the mark biblically.
ACT 9:17 And Ananias went his way, and entered into the house; and putting his hands on him said, Brother Saul, the Lord, even Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost.
Gee, wonder when Ananias became an apostle???....NOT!!! As a matter of fact, the guy called to BE AN APOSTLE had hands laid on him by a 'good ole boy' Christian.
ACT 22:12 And one Ananias, a devout man according to the law, having a good report of all the Jews which dwelt there,
Maybe, if someone studied their bibles a little better they might see what you see.
How else does the Spirit enter you? What other scripture tells you how the Spirit enters a believer? Only one tells you how and when and that's Acts 2:38. This is the point I've continually tried to make via the word used there, "gift" of the Holy Ghost. "Gift" is singular for a reason: because it means the actual Spirit of God, not a gift administered through or by it, which happened later as the scriptures identity, those listed as "gifts" of the Spirit.
Good! We're making progress. And to the comment that the other party made re the Joel prophesy as recounted in Acts 2:16, by "all flesh" as reads the Greek, does that mean every, single person, every single Jew, every single believer, or what? Or, does it mean both Jews AND Gentiles? I think the latter which makes way more sense and is the logical conclusion that can be drawn since the Joel text was written to the Jews and there was a clear distinction between the Jews, God's chosen, and everyone else, i.e., the Gentiles.
St. SteVen
Well-Known Member
Probably a bad idea to put the Holy Spirit in a box.
The outpouring at Pentecost is referred to as "filled".
"All of them were filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak
in other tongues[a] as the Spirit enabled them." - Acts 2:4 NIV
And what about the House of Cornelius?
Acts 10:44-48 NIV
While Peter was still speaking these words,
the Holy Spirit came on all who heard the message.
45 The circumcised believers who had come with Peter were astonished that
the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on Gentiles.
46 For they heard them speaking in tongues[a] and praising God.
Then Peter said, 47 “Surely no one can stand in the way of their being baptized with water.
They have received the Holy Spirit just as we have.”
48 So he ordered that they be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ.
Then they asked Peter to stay with them for a few days.
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