Hillsage
Well-Known Member
I'm sorry but I'm not going to chase your tail in whatever you just said....you're doing fine all by yourself.
Spiritual gifts: Unconfusing them part 2
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Hillsage
Well-Known Member
Well I guess you're just smarter than the guys who write Greek/English Interlinear bibles. Let me quote from the introduction of one of my Interlinear Greek English bibles.
QUOTE:
INTERLINEAR GREEK ENGLISH NEW TESTAMENT
ZONDERVAN PUBLISHING CO. 1972
Based on STEVENS GREEK TEXT
Introduction page iii
5. Capitals. The only remark needed here is in reference to the names of God, of Christ, and of the Holy Spirit. The greatest difficulty is touching the word ‘Spirit’. In some places it is very difficult to say whether the Holy Spirit as a person or the spirit of the Christian is referred to (see Rom. 8:9); and if sometimes a small letter and sometimes a capital had been placed to the word pneuma, in the Greek, persons would naturally have concluded that the question was thus indisputably settled. It was therefore judged best to put a small s in the Greek everywhere. In the English we have been obliged to put a capital S when the Holy Spirit was referred to and so have retained it wherever we thought this was the case; but in some places it is really doubtful, and becomes a question for the spiritual judgment of the reader. The Greek will not help in the difficulty, because in the earliest copies every letter was a capital. In the other names we have followed the usage of modern editors; putting in the Greek a capital to Jesus but a small letter for Christ, and a small letter for Lord and for God.
END QUOTE
So just give me your understanding of Romans 8:9 like they just mentioned. I'm interested in what you'll do with that. Especially after all you wrote that I'm not going to waste time trying to answer....I'll just start with the above.
Hillsage
Well-Known Member
You started my reason for quoting John. with your quote below from your post #110.
If you're still totally lost then maybe someone else here can hopefully help you. Unless I'm the only one who has a prayer language from God which "no man understands" because it is not an earthly language, it is an angelic heavenly one.
1CO 13:1 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels,
1CO 14:2 For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.
1CO 14:14 For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.
Prayer tongues from my spirit sounds like "unearthly gibberish" to you, because you do not have it, simple as that. On the day of Pentecost those like you said that those like us "were drunk".
1st of all, what does any of this have to do with the subject of tongues??
Secondly, what is your point in citing the below passage? Are you suggesting that there are 2 Holy Spirits because of this? Jesus said "I and my Father are one" John 10:30 (KJV). So, are there 3 Gods or one God?
And what is the name of the Holy Spirit? The Holy Spirit has no name because it IS God.
Romans 8:9
9But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
You are way off course on this as well as having dramatically deviated from the subject of tongues.
I'm a little confused, could you tell me why you believe speaking (I assume in prayer) to the Spirit through your spirit is in a language other than earthly? What or where does "a prayer language from God which no man understands" come from?
When I speak through my spirit to God in prayer, it is true I am not speaking to men, but to God. How could any man understand my silent prayer to God, since my voice is not heard? If I speak aloud my prayer through my spirit to God, who is Spirit, why would I speak with a sound that none by I and God understand? Is not the purpose for public prayer for the benefit of all who hear it? What benefit if the sound heard makes no sense? The only person being edified then is I. I've never heard of "prayer tongues". And the reason they thought the apostles were drunk at Pentecost is not because they spoke in some nonhuman language, but because they spoke in human languages they had not known before. Hearing them all speaking together in different languages of those who witnessed this miracle, indeed would sound like a bunch of drunken men babbling at the same time.
Christ taught us how to pray to our Father in heaven and the example He gives us is clear, and the language of mankind.
Matthew 6:9-13 (KJV) After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven. Give us this day our daily bread. And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors. And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.
Hillsage
Well-Known Member
Thank you for your honesty. This is a confusing doctrine. The church has been fighting over it for centuries. And IMO the Charismatic theology has plenty of error in their understanding also. To answer your question as simply as I can, let me say this;
Yes I am talking about verbal/audible prayer, but not 'to the Spirit'....unless you mean "God is spirit" which would not be
capitalized as you did. Capitalization picks out 1/3 of the triune Godhead IMO.
2. That language comes from the vocabulary of "my spirit" and bypasses my brain/soul's "understanding" because my soul understands English. But my soul (mind will emotion) does have to participate because the soul is the 'functioning brain'. And your brain must tell your vocal cords to wiggle and make sound. Your soul just doesn't know what the words are going to be until your ears hear them. That's the best description I can give, others (prayer tongue speakers) may have a different POV.
It comes from the holy spirit power (gift) which is poured upon you from the Holy Spirit of God (gift giver).
1CO 14:14 For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.
When you pray 'with your understanding' it isn't coming from your spirit completely. IOW I'm not going to say your soulish/English prayer can't be somewhat in alignment with your spirit. But it will be mixed in with the stinking thinking we all have in our minds.
And I don't consider 'silent prayer' as praying with tongues. When God created he SPOKE let their be light...He didn't just think it or meditate it.
Ask God He set this up IMO not me.
A common thought is your spirit knows your spiritual need better than your soul. AND the familiar spirit assigned to you at birth is also listening to what you are struggling with. You give him your weak spot, and where do you think he is going to hit you most?Paul addressed that very issue. He points out that your spirit's prayer tongue is for 'SELF EDIFICATION'.
1CO 14:4 He that speaketh in an unknown (prayer) tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church.
If the apostle Paul needed self edification...who are we to say "I don't"?
1CO 14:18 I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all:
Actually, on the Day of Pentecost the first tongue they spoke was their prayer languages....120 different languages. None of them earthly. All non human, and that's spelled out in the scripture when it says;
KJV ACT 2:4 And they were all filled with
Even the KJV had trouble distinguishing what holy ghost/spirit was being talked about. That's why KJV says Holy Ghost 89 times holy Spirit 6 times Holy Spirit 1 time.. WHY WHY?
This verse speaks of their initial ‘spirit baptism’ and ‘prayer tongue’ which is an unknown tongue to man And "the spirit" that gave the utterance was their spirit. Which it was enabled to do after being "endued/clothed", by the gift of holy spirit power poured "from on high", by the (person) Holy Spirit of God.)
And you're right it did sound drunken, goofy....even 'beastial'.
ACT 2:6 Now when this (prayer tongue of their spirit) was NOISED abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language (Holy Spirit tongues). (After prayer tongues from their spirit, this was the subsequent ‘gift of tongues, without interpretation’. It was from The Holy Spirit and was given after the crowd heard the “noise/sound” of ‘prayer tongues’, which caused them to gather to where the disciples were.)
"NOISED"
5456 phone: a tone (articulate, bestial or artificial); by impl. an address (for any purpose), saying or language
And it was that bestial or artificial sounding language that first drew the crowd. BUT that was when the 1 Cor 12 "gift of tongues" manifested from the Holy Spirit, through these disciples all babbling like the PENTECOSTAL nut house that they were. But this tongue from the Holy Spirit was an earthly tongue. One that the disciples did not speak so it was bypassing their understanding, but it impacted all the Jews from other lands perfectly with 'their understanding.
Yes Jesus taught us HOW to pray....and then man made that HOW TO into 'a Prayer'. But what's your point? Tongues wasn't even available for anyone else because only Jesus had the holy spirit of Christ in Him. And it was with that spirit that I believe He prayed in tongues just like I do. Can't prove that. But neither can it be disproven...as far as I know.
I hate long posts and this one is. Please don't try to address everyone of these comments or nobody will read, let alone understand. Hope you appreciate what/where I am coming from.
You have a distorted understanding of scripture. Anyone who thinks they are actually praying to God via sounds they are making or verbalizing but has no clue what they're saying to him or asking of him doesn't understand the reason for prayer, and has been lead astray by doctrines founded upon a lack of unscriptural knowledge and/or distorted understanding thereof. All the miraculous manifestations of the Spirit have ceased a long, long, time ago including tongues as 1 Cor 13:8 said they would.Thank you for your honesty. This is a confusing doctrine. The church has been fighting over it for centuries. And IMO the Charismatic theology has plenty of error in their understanding also. To answer your question as simply as I can, let me say this;
Yes I am talking about verbal/audible prayer, but not 'to the Spirit'....unless you mean "God is spirit" which would not be
capitalized as you did. Capitalization picks out 1/3 of the triune Godhead IMO.
2. That language comes from the vocabulary of "my spirit" and bypasses my brain/soul's "understanding" because my soul understands English. But my soul (mind will emotion) does have to participate because the soul is the 'functioning brain'. And your brain must tell your vocal cords to wiggle and make sound. Your soul just doesn't know what the words are going to be until your ears hear them. That's the best description I can give, others (prayer tongue speakers) may have a different POV.
It comes from the holy spirit power (gift) which is poured upon you from the Holy Spirit of God (gift giver).
1CO 14:14 For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.
When you pray 'with your understanding' it isn't coming from your spirit completely. IOW I'm not going to say your soulish/English prayer can't be somewhat in alignment with your spirit. But it will be mixed in with the stinking thinking we all have in our minds.
And I don't consider 'silent prayer' as praying with tongues. When God created he SPOKE let their be light...He didn't just think it or meditate it.
Ask God He set this up IMO not me.
Paul addressed that very issue. He points out that your spirit's prayer tongue is for 'SELF EDIFICATION'.
1CO 14:4 He that speaketh in an unknown (prayer) tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church.
If the apostle Paul needed self edification...who are we to say "I don't"?
1CO 14:18 I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all:
Actually, on the Day of Pentecost the first tongue they spoke was their prayer languages....120 different languages. None of them earthly. All non human, and that's spelled out in the scripture when it says;
KJV ACT 2:4 And they were all filled withtheholy ghost (POWER not the PERSON), and began to speak with other tongues, as the spirit gave them utterance.
Even the KJV had trouble distinguishing what holy ghost/spirit was being talked about. That's why KJV says Holy Ghost 89 times holy Spirit 6 times Holy Spirit 1 time.. WHY WHY?
This verse speaks of their initial ‘spirit baptism’ and ‘prayer tongue’ which is an unknown tongue to man And "the spirit" that gave the utterance was their spirit. Which it was enabled to do after being "endued/clothed", by the gift of holy spirit power poured "from on high", by the (person) Holy Spirit of God.)
And you're right it did sound drunken, goofy....even 'beastial'.
ACT 2:6 Now when this (prayer tongue of their spirit) was NOISED abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language (Holy Spirit tongues). (After prayer tongues from their spirit, this was the subsequent ‘gift of tongues, without interpretation’. It was from The Holy Spirit and was given after the crowd heard the “noise/sound” of ‘prayer tongues’, which caused them to gather to where the disciples were.)
"NOISED"
5456 phone: a tone (articulate, bestial or artificial); by impl. an address (for any purpose), saying or language
And it was that bestial or artificial sounding language that first drew the crowd. BUT that was when the 1 Cor 12 "gift of tongues" manifested from the Holy Spirit, through these disciples all babbling like the PENTECOSTAL nut house that they were. But this tongue from the Holy Spirit was an earthly tongue. One that the disciples did not speak so it was bypassing their understanding, but it impacted all the Jews from other lands perfectly with 'their understanding.
Yes Jesus taught us HOW to pray....and then man made that HOW TO into 'a Prayer'. But what's your point? Tongues wasn't even available for anyone else because only Jesus had the holy spirit of Christ in Him. And it was with that spirit that I believe He prayed in tongues just like I do. Can't prove that. But neither can it be disproven...as far as I know.
I hate long posts and this one is. Please don't try to address everyone of these comments or nobody will read, let alone understand. Hope you appreciate what/where I am coming from.
Thank you for the thoughtful reply.
The need for self-edification is simply something I don't believe is seen in character of the Apostle Paul.
I believe Paul speaking with tongue(s) meant he spoke with many different languages, not unknown, simply unlearned human languages. Through God giving him this ability, Paul was able to communicate the Gospel to many different nations, tribes, peoples and tongues (languages). Though it was Paul's desire that all the members of the body had this ability, he recognized that it came from God, Who gave the gift to whom He chose.
The devout men of every nation under heaven were amazed because the disciples were all Galileans speaking in their own language, wondering how they could hear in each the tongue (language), wherein they were born.
Acts 2:5-8 (KJV) And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven. Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language. And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galilaeans? And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born?
I believe in every instance where the gift of speaking in other tongues is mentioned in Scripture, is the ability to speak in unlearned human languages. So for this reason, though I do know where you're coming from, I cannot agree with your understanding of the gift of tongues found in Scripture. But it was informative, thank you.
Hillsage
Well-Known Member
Let Paul speak for me;
2CO 11:24-28; 24 .......and, apart from other things, there is the daily pressure upon me of my anxiety for all the churches. 29 Who is weak, and I am not weak?
I believe scripture supports my OPINION as to why he prayed in tongues. You have presented, an opinion??
If that is scriptural proof to you, I need an better address. You need to provide me with the scripture which says there is 'the gift of HEARING' from the Holy Spirit to UNBELIEVERS. I've heard this 'opinion' before and never found one. So the ball is in your court.
I was ONLY talking about the unknown tongues from our spirit. You have jumped to a whole other issue now. One which I was NOT addressing at all because of the length this subject demands. So let me answer your NEW question above.
I believe there are;
THREE TONGUES AND THREE PURPOSES
(1) Prayer tongues. From our spirit to God For Self edification(2) Tongues with interpretation. From God’s Spirit to us For Charismatic Church edification
(3) Tongues without interpretation. From God’s Spirit to us For World edification
Scripture uses and describes three different tongues and three different purposes for them. Until one is able to see these three differences at the surface level, they will have great difficulty plumbing their depths in scripture because of the confusing array of undifferentiated tongue ‘verses’. Scripture ‘verses’ which are biblically lumped under that one, all-inclusive category of ‘TONGUES’. And the chapter that is of particular difficulty is found in 1Cor. 14. That leaves it up to us to ‘rightly divide the word of truth’ when determining ‘which tongue’ scripture is talking about.
(1) Prayer tongues: FROM…MY SPIRIT PRAYING to God, as I will, for SELF-EDIFICATION
(1Co 14:4, Jud 1:20). (This is an angelic/spiritual language (1Co 13:1, 14:14). It is therefore also an unknown tongue to mankind (1Co 14:2). This is our spirit’s gift/ability.)
1CO 14:4 He that speaketh in an unknown tongue (spirit/prayer) edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church.
JUD 1:20 But ye, beloved, building up yourselves (self edification) on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost, (praying in tongues).
1CO 13:1 Though I speak with the tongues of men (earthly languages) and of angels (angelic/spiritual/heavenly languages /God’s Spirit and our spirit), and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.
1CO 14:14 For if I pray in an unknown tongue (spiritual/heavenly prayer/language), my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful. (Correctly not capitalized because it’s your spirit)
1CO 14:2 For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue (spirit prayer tongue) speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit (his spirit) he speaketh mysteries.
(If “no man understands” this language then it is not an earthly language, it spiritual/angelic.)
(2) Tongues WITH interpretation: (2 gifts equal to prophesy 1Co 14:5), FROM …THE HOLY SPIRIT speaking through individuals as HE WILLS (1Co 12:11), for CHURCH EDIFICATION (1Co 14:5). (This is an unknown tongue to the speaker AND interpreter, but MAY be a known language to man (earthly language) (1Co 14:5). This is the Holy Spirits gifting/ability to/through us.)
1CO 14:5 I would that ye all spake with tongues ( prayer tongues for self edification) but rather that ye prophesied (Holy Spirit's gift of tongues + interpretation): for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues (prayer tongues), except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying. (‘Prayer tongues’ from your spirit only helps you. ‘Holy Spirit tongues & interpretation’ helps others).
1CO 12:11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will. (The Holy Spirit’s tongue’ is only given/gifted as He/The Spirit wills, and not as we will…like prayer tongues…which we control.)
(3) Tongues WITHOUT interpretation: God’s HOLY SPIRIT speaking through individuals as HE WILLS to minister the gospel for WORLD EDIFICATION. This is a known language of man. It is unknown to the speaker but known to the receiver/hearer (Acts 2:1-13, 1Co 12:10). This also is The Holy Spirit’s gifting/ability to us.
ACT 2:4 And they were all filled with
(This verse speaks of their initial ‘spirit baptism’ and ‘prayer tongue’ which is an unknown tongue to man.)
ACT 2:6 Now when this (prayer tongue/their spirit) was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language (Holy Spirit gift of tongues).
(After prayer tongues from their spirit, this was the subsequent ‘gift of tongues, without interpretation’. It was from The Holy Spirit and was given after the crowd heard the “noise/sound” of ‘prayer tongues’, which caused them to gather to where the disciples were.)
1CO 12:10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:
(This speaks of The Holy Spirit’s gifts of tongues and interpretation and is not talking about our spirit’s language.)
A study of tongues from “rightly dividing the scriptures” into these three categories should help to clear up some of the confusion that surrounds this topic in the body of Christ today.
Hillsage
Well-Known Member
I googled "how many christian denominations are there" and it said; "Estimations show there are more than 200 Christian denominations in the U.S. and a staggering 45,000 globally, according to the Center for the Study of Global Christianity."
Welcome to THE CHURCH. So which distorted understanding do you have?
Let me give you some SAGE advice; EVERYONE is SOMEONE'S HERETIC. And that includes you.
My testimony agreed with yours....UNTIL something happened to me that has never happened to you.
And you're right about one thing concerning 1Cor 13:8 ....and YOUR CHURCH.
1CO 13:8 .....as for knowledge, it will pass away.
They are called devout men from every nation under heaven. They weren't hearing supernaturally the speaking in unlearned languages, they were physically hearing them.
To the remaining reply from you, we are not in agreement.
Hillsage
Well-Known Member
That's what I said in the heading (3) Tongues WITHOUT interpretation:
The supernatural speaking of a known human language was an unknown tongue/language for the disciples who were speaking. But not to the foreigners who were hearing.
I understand and thank you for your kind response.
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How many truths are there, 200 in the US, and 45k world wide? No, there's one and it's up to each of us to seek it out and let the scriptures guide us. If you're doing something not supported by scripture, then it's not truth even though something may actually be occurring, and likewise, if you're doing something contrary to scripture, it's also not founded in truth. Believe and practice what you will.I googled "how many christian denominations are there" and it said; "Estimations show there are more than 200 Christian denominations in the U.S. and a staggering 45,000 globally, according to the Center for the Study of Global Christianity."
Welcome to THE CHURCH. So which distorted understanding do you have?
Let me give you some SAGE advice; EVERYONE is SOMEONE'S HERETIC. And that includes you.
My testimony agreed with yours....UNTIL something happened to me that has never happened to you.
And you're right about one thing concerning 1Cor 13:8 ....and YOUR CHURCH.
1CO 13:8 .....as for knowledge, it will pass away.
Goodbye
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