Receiving revelation from God (the word of knowledge) is not a gift. It comes with the spirit of Christ.
Spiritual gifts: Unconfusing them part 2
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Receiving revelation from God (the word of knowledge) is not a gift. It comes with the spirit.
St. SteVen
Well-Known Member
I've asked this question at least three times.
Can you show us where Paul informs us about spiritual gifts in first Corinthians chapter twelve?
/
There are only 5 gift ministries. 9 listed operations of the spirit. And 9 fruits of the spirit. There's nothing else there.
It may be your contention, but it's not supported by scripture and is a very weak one. It's very clear that tongues, considered a lesser of the manifestations or gifts of the Spirit, is not the gift of the Spirit spoken of in Acts 2:38. The indwelling of the Spirit itself IS the gift of God. The various manifestations of the Spirit, the gifts if you will, those listed in 1 Cor 12:8-10, are the plural of the word 'gift'.
Acts 2:38
38Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
2 Tim 1:6-7
6Wherefore I put thee in remembrance that thou stir up the gift of God, which is in thee by the putting on of my hands. 7For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind.
It, "the word of knowledge", is listed as one of the gifts, contrary to your assertion. See verse 8 in the below. It's given BY the Spirit, not "comes with the spirit".
1Cor 12:4-10
4Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit. 5And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord. 6And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all. 7But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal. 8For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit; 9To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit; 10To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:
You can skip the above verses you list and start with verse 7 because that's where it stops talking about gifts and starts talking about the operations of the spirit that operates in all Christians who have the spirit. They come with the spirit because they are the things of the spirit. Same with the fruit. They are not special gifts. They are the fruit of the spirit. They come with the spirit. The operations of my car has tires, a motor, a gas tank. They are the things of the car. They come with the car.
The manifestations of the Spirit, gifts, are listed 8-10. Agree, disagree, doesn't matter. That's them
Hillsage
Well-Known Member
The word "gifts" is not in the Greek in 1 Cor 12:1
1CO 12:1 Now concerning spirituals .... brethren, I would not have you ignorant.
Paul said in verse 1 that he doesn't want "brethren" to be ignorant as to who are the "spirituals". Then, in the next verse he makes a comparative between those "spiritual brethren" and compares them to the Gentiles who have DUMB non speaking idols.
1CO 12:2 Ye know that ye were Gentiles, carried away unto these dumb idols, even as ye were led.
"dumb" = 0880 aphonos: voiceless, i.e. mute (by nature or choice); fig. unmeaning
Many today hold up a "dumb/mute" LOGOS book and they call it the RHEMA or spoken "Word of God".
It is not! The Greek word for scriptures/graphe in the Greek is;
Strong's 1124 graphe: a document, i.e. holy Writ (or its contents or a statement in it)
Then, in verse 3 we basically have the lying pen of fundamental scribes not translating or interpreting the Greek word correctly.
1CO 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by (GR = IN) [the] Spirit of (from) God calleth Jesus accursed...
They change the Greek word for IN and put BY then they add the definite article [the] capitalized the S making spirit power into a person.
A more correct rendering would reveal "no man speaking in 'spirit (in tongues) from God calls Jesus accursed."
Isn't that exactly what fundaMENTALists do? Don't they accuse those of us, who pray in the tongues of the holy spirit of Christ IN US? I know I've been told "How do you know you aren't cussing God out in that gibberish/Babel?" I know I'm not because "the bible tells me so"....when interpreted correctly.
What are "tongues of the Holy Spirit"? To use 1 Cor 13:1 as validation of angelic tongues able to be spoken, is totally incorrect and a misinterpretation of the scripture, as it's simply saying that if you were able to speak with any kind of tongue irregardless of its origin, and have not love/charity, it's meaningless, as love/charity is far greater than any tongue that could possibly be spoken. It doesn't mean that its possible to speak in heavenly tongues and that you can, it simply is making a comparison of the relative importance of tongues vs. love/charity: that love/charity are what's truly important, and that should be sought, not a gift such as tongues. The tongues in the scriptures were earthly tongues and were to be a sign to unbelievers. 1 Cor 14, when read and understood correctly, makes clear the issue of tongues and speaking in unknown tongues. They are not some unearthly tongue, but just are or were commonly unknown to those present, and those with such a tongue should remain silent unless there be one present to interpret. The only reason the scripture says you're speaking to God, is that unless there be an interpreter, God the would be the only one that you'd be speaking to. The examples of tongue speaking in the bible were earthly tongues, such as on the day of Pentecost.Tongues are not some heavenly tongue that no one can understand. If you're speaking by some means, that which sounds like a bunch of unearthly, gibberish, that's exactly what it is: unearthly gibberish.The word "gifts" is not in the Greek in 1 Cor 12:1
1CO 12:1 Now concerning spirituals .... brethren, I would not have you ignorant.
Paul said in verse 1 that he doesn't want "brethren" to be ignorant as to who are the "spirituals". Then, in the next verse he makes a comparative between those "spiritual brethren" and compares them to the Gentiles who have DUMB non speaking idols.
1CO 12:2 Ye know that ye were Gentiles, carried away unto these dumb idols, even as ye were led.
"dumb" = 0880 aphonos: voiceless, i.e. mute (by nature or choice); fig. unmeaning
Many today hold up a "dumb/mute" LOGOS book and they call it the RHEMA or spoken "Word of God".
It is not! The Greek word for scriptures/graphe in the Greek is;
Strong's 1124 graphe: a document, i.e. holy Writ (or its contents or a statement in it)
Then, in verse 3 we basically have the lying pen of fundamental scribes not translating or interpreting the Greek word correctly.
1CO 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by (GR = IN) [the] Spirit of (from) God calleth Jesus accursed...
They change the Greek word for IN and put BY then they add the definite article [the] capitalized the S making spirit power into a person.
A more correct rendering would reveal "no man speaking in 'spirit (in tongues) from God calls Jesus accursed."
Isn't that exactly what fundaMENTALists do? Don't they accuse those of us, who pray in the tongues of the holy spirit of Christ IN US? I know I've been told "How do you know you aren't cussing God out in that gibberish/Babel?" I know I'm not because "the bible tells me so"....when interpreted correctly.
St. SteVen
Well-Known Member
That's a very interesting reading on this. Never heard that before. Which is fine.The word "gifts" is not in the Greek in 1 Cor 12:1
1CO 12:1 Now concerning spirituals .... brethren, I would not have you ignorant.
Paul said in verse 1 that he doesn't want "brethren" to be ignorant as to who are the "spirituals". Then, in the next verse he makes a comparative between those "spiritual brethren" and compares them to the Gentiles who have DUMB non speaking idols.
1CO 12:2 Ye know that ye were Gentiles, carried away unto these dumb idols, even as ye were led.
"dumb" = 0880 aphonos: voiceless, i.e. mute (by nature or choice); fig. unmeaning
Many today hold up a "dumb/mute" LOGOS book and they call it the RHEMA or spoken "Word of God".
It is not! The Greek word for scriptures/graphe in the Greek is;
Strong's 1124 graphe: a document, i.e. holy Writ (or its contents or a statement in it)
Then, in verse 3 we basically have the lying pen of fundamental scribes not translating or interpreting the Greek word correctly.
1CO 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by (GR = IN) [the] Spirit of (from) God calleth Jesus accursed...
They change the Greek word for IN and put BY then they add the definite article [the] capitalized the S making spirit power into a person.
A more correct rendering would reveal "no man speaking in 'spirit (in tongues) from God calls Jesus accursed."
Isn't that exactly what fundaMENTALists do? Don't they accuse those of us, who pray in the tongues of the holy spirit of Christ IN US? I know I've been told "How do you know you aren't cussing God out in that gibberish/Babel?" I know I'm not because "the bible tells me so"....when interpreted correctly.
So, with that as the introduction, what is the chapter about?
'
Hillsage
Well-Known Member
The word for "gift" concerning the 5 fold ministry is not "Charisma", it is "Dorea" Eph 4:7 and "Doma" Eph 4:8. The 5 are not spiritual gifts, they are soulish talents. It is how their enchristed brains are wired to think and bring that particular strength to the church as a whole. The 5 don't have 'a gift' they are the gift (gratuity/present) given by Christ to the church to mature the church to the fullness of maturity....."to the image of the stature of the FULLNESS of Christ."
Scripture doesn't say "Thee or Thou (sg) have the mind of Christ." It says "YE (pl) have the mind (sg). We all need each other for the collective good and growth of the 'many membered' body of Christ to come to perfect maturity.
EPH 4:13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
PHI 3:14 I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.
15 Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.
Hillsage
Well-Known Member
Which Hholy Sspirit are you talking about? Are you talking about 'prayer tongues' from the holy spirit of Christ in you for your edification? Or are you talking about 'tongues from the Holy Spirit of God' who is not IN YOU, but pours out his 'holy spirit' power manifestations upon you to be ministered THROUGH you to the good for whom those manifestations are intended for.
Cutting this short. Grandaughter just called wanted me to go to the Veteran's parade with her.
The Bible refers to them as "gifts" and I did not write the Bible and I'm not making this stuff up. Here read it for yourself...
Ephesians 4:8
Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.
Hillsage
Well-Known Member
JOH 12:28 Father, glorify Thy name.' There came, therefore, a voice out of the heaven, 'I both glorified, and again I will glorify {it};'
29 the multitude, therefore, having stood and heard, were saying that there hath been thunder; .....others said, 'A messenger hath spoken to him.'
Some will always hear the spiritual voice from heaven as earthly thunder and "unearthly gibberish". I believe I am standing with "others" here.
Hillsage
Well-Known Member
Your response simply proves you did not read mine. Or maybe you just did not understand, because I did deal with the Greek words for "gifts" as well as Eph 4:7 and 4:8.
The other day the Lord spoke to me and said "It matters not how deep or shallow the waters are, that you are in. What matters is this; If your head is above, you are OK. And if your head is under, you are NOT."
Hillsage
Well-Known Member
As I have said before; "I believe the CHARISMATIC' church of Corinth was a %100 prayer tongue filled body. Paul wasn't speaking hyperbole as the Fundamentals so strongly teach and believe.
KJV 1CO 14:23 If therefore the whole church be come together into one place, and ALL speak with tongues, and there come in those that are unlearned, or unbelievers, will they not say that ye are mad?
It sounds like the charismatic church of Corinth was 100% tongue talkers, just like the disciples on the day of Pentecost.
It began as a church with no Christians who were; “unlearned” or as in NAS “ungifted” or as in NIV “some who don’t understand”(today, "some" would be 'MOST') But obviously there were “unlearned,ungifted” ones back then, who started showing up at the Charismatic church of Corinth. A spiritually immature church, to be sure, as Paul points out.
But Paul gives a teaching to hopefully help Corinth deal with all three groups coming. Those three groups being 1. the Charismatic, 2. the "unlearned", ungifted" Fundamentalists. 3 Those "unbelievers", who weren't even saved.
As to your question Steven; I think 13 starts with the assumption that everyone he was writing to was born again, water baptized and baptized with spiritual power of a spiritual prayer language from the Holy Spirit of God. Paul wants the church of Corinth to have more SPIRITUALS. And he also wants those who aren't where Corinth was, Paul wanted them to help them get what Charismatic Corinth had.
Are you OK with this? Or do you have thoughts and questions? If you're not OK at this point, there's no sense trading convoluting posts beyond ones ability to move from where they are at, to begin with.
Your response simply proves you did not read mine. Or maybe you just did not understand, because I did deal with the Greek words for "gifts" as well as Eph 4:7 and 4:8.
The other day the Lord spoke to me and said "It matters not how deep or shallow the waters are, that you are in. What matters is this; If your head is above, you are OK. And if your head is under, you are NOT."
We are still talking about 1 Corinthians 12. There are only what Ephesians calls gift ministries, and the new birth called holy spirit and then there's the operations of that spirit and its fruit. There's nothing else. There's no mysterious special gifts being talked about in first Corinthians chapter 12.
I was simply quoting your words but didn't finish the sentence of yours. Since God is one, it's the indwelling of God's Spirit that baptized believers receive upon their baptism into Christ. So, there is no differentiation to be made: God is God. God's Spirit is God's Spirit. There is no Spirit of God the Father and a separate or different Spirit of Jesus Christ. The Holy Spirit of God is just that. There are not 2 Holy Spirits. The Holy Spirit is a gift from God as Paul stated to Timothy in 2 Tim 1:6-7. So, once again, please tell me what are "tongues of the Holy Spirit"?
You totally lost me with the logic presented by your citing John 12:28-9 as having anything at all to do with our discussion of speaking in tongues and/or its validity today.JOH 12:28 Father, glorify Thy name.' There came, therefore, a voice out of the heaven, 'I both glorified, and again I will glorify {it};'
29 the multitude, therefore, having stood and heard, were saying that there hath been thunder; .....others said, 'A messenger hath spoken to him.'
Some will always hear the spiritual voice from heaven as earthly thunder and "unearthly gibberish". I believe I am standing with "others" here.
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