Spiritual Shepherding

[marks]

In conclusion, it is only as the outer man as a husk covering the seed...dies...that the life from within is set free. Jesus came to set us free.

In realizing that the corrupt flesh is in fact our fleshy being, we likewise can realize that this fleshy being will not be transformed until our resurrection. So that there is no natural deliverance from the deceptive fleshy lusts, but we overcome them by faith, finding our life in Christ, in the Spirit of Christ, and not in our fleshy being.

Having died in Christ, we are dead, and simply are no longer that one born from Adam, but are the new man born from God, subject to an entirely different nature.

Much love!

 

[Episkopos]

In realizing that the corrupt flesh is in fact our fleshy being, we likewise can realize that this fleshy being will not be transformed until our resurrection. So that there is no natural deliverance from the deceptive fleshy lusts, but we overcome them by faith, finding our life in Christ, in the Spirit of Christ, and not in our fleshy being.

Having died in Christ, we are dead, and simply are no longer that one born from Adam, but are the new man born from God, subject to an entirely different nature.

Much love!

Until a person is crucified dead in the outer man there will be an inward battle that will never be resolved. It is the power of the cross that sets us free. No one can walk in the very presence of God while the outer man is still in the picture. before we can be married with Christ we must die in our outer man. The bible is plain in its teaching on this. First the death of Christ...then the life in Christ.

 

[Not me]

In realizing that the corrupt flesh is in fact our fleshy being, we likewise can realize that this fleshy being will not be transformed until our resurrection. So that there is no natural deliverance from the deceptive fleshy lusts, but we overcome them by faith, finding our life in Christ, in the Spirit of Christ, and not in our fleshy being.

Having died in Christ, we are dead, and simply are no longer that one born from Adam, but are the new man born from God, subject to an entirely different nature.

Much love!

The relationship that has taught you this, is the relationship that will continue to enlarge upon this truth to the freeing, that is in the seeing of, ‘he that has died is freed from sin’….

Faith you have stated, and faith it is, be so very blessed in that trusting….

A fellow trust-er, Not me

 

[Episkopos]

The relationship that has taught you this, is the relationship that will continue to enlarge upon this truth to the freeing, that is in the seeing of, ‘he that has died is freed from sin’….

Faith you have stated, and faith it is, be so very blessed in that trusting….

A fellow trust-er, Not me

The problem with "enlarging on the truth" as you say is that the outer man is very adaptable (adaptation being a very human trait for survival) and can learn to appear to be improving in matters of the spiritual nature. But a cover-up of the flesh is not the same as actually being dead and walking in the resurrection life and power of Christ. Believing about death doesn't make you dead. A dead person in Christ is not just partially freed from sin. The work of God is not partial...it is complete in Christ. There is no process of death...it is an event given to us as a gift of grace. No one is "half crucified" any more than a woman can be half-pregnant. Sanctification is not something we enter into slowly. It is a gift of grace by being in His presence. When I hear of people believing they are gradually being sanctified or gradually dying I immediately suspect that the person is relying on the religious adaptive nature of the outer man...not on a fully surrendered inner man that has taken a stand by faith.
Part of understanding the truth is knowing one's own carnal tendencies. God works in the moment and moment by moment. The only thing that is gradual is the process of maturing by walking in the new life that one is experiencing over time. The Pharisees were indeed "mature" but in the wrong part of themselves. They had learned to project a certain image of themselves by using a certain kind of language and posturing thinking that this was all that God was interested in. But they remained in charge of themselves to be ruled over by the normal ordering whereby the outer man controls the show.

Not so with Christ. To actually enter into Christ means being stripped naked and crucified in the outer man so that ownership is transferred over to Christ in the inner man. The inner man is poor, naked, blind, and weak in his natural state. He relies on the access that the outer man has to the natural faculties of the body for survival sake. But to be in Christ means a forsaking of our own protections to come under the headship of Christ. Dying daily means that we make ourselves vulnerable to the harms of this world by forsaking the outer man whether he is crucified or not. But those whose ownership has been transferred to Christ have been crucified so that the outer man is dead.
Notice what Jesus says to the Laodiceans...how they are really poor naked and blind even as they claim the riches of Christ for themselves. Jesus is looking at the state of the inner man which has remained unchanged from its natural state seeing that the outer man has not yet been dealt with. Such is the deception that is possible for those who get the cart before the horse and claim great things for themselves but without having gone through the necessary repentance before God.

 

[Not me]

The problem with "enlarging on the truth" as you say is that the outer man is very adaptable (adaptation being a very human trait for survival) and can learn to appear to be improving in matters of the spiritual nature. But a cover-up of the flesh is not the same as actually being dead and walking in the resurrection life and power of Christ. Believing about death doesn't make you dead. A dead person in Christ is not just partially freed from sin. The work of God is not partial...it is complete in Christ. There is no process of death...it is an event given to us as a gift of grace. No one is "half crucified" any more than a woman can be half-pregnant. Sanctification is not something we enter into slowly. It is a gift of grace by being in His presence. When I hear of people believing they are gradually being sanctified or gradually dying I immediately suspect that the person is relying on the religious adaptive nature of the outer man...not on a fully surrendered inner man that has taken a stand by faith.
Part of understanding the truth is knowing one's own carnal tendencies. God works in the moment and moment by moment. The only thing that is gradual is the process of maturing by walking in the new life that one is experiencing over time. The Pharisees were indeed "mature" but in the wrong part of themselves. They had learned to project a certain image of themselves by using a certain kind of language and posturing thinking that this was all that God was interested in. But they remained in charge of themselves to be ruled over by the normal ordering whereby the outer man controls the show.

Not so with Christ. To actually enter into Christ means being stripped naked and crucified in the outer man so that ownership is transferred over to Christ in the inner man. The inner man is poor, naked, blind, and weak in his natural state. He relies on the access that the outer man has to the natural faculties of the body for survival sake. But to be in Christ means a forsaking of our own protections to come under the headship of Christ. Dying daily means that we make ourselves vulnerable to the harms of this world by forsaking the outer man whether he is crucified or not. But those whose ownership has been transferred to Christ have been crucified so that the outer man is dead.
Notice what Jesus says to the Laodiceans...how they are really poor naked and blind even as they claim the riches of Christ for themselves. Jesus is looking at the state of the inner man which has remained unchanged from its natural state seeing that the outer man has not yet been dealt with. Such is the deception that is possible for those who get the cart before the horse and claim great things for themselves but without having gone through the necessary repentance before God.

Be blessed in your learning of Christ…

A follower of His, Not me

 

[stunnedbygrace]

A dead person in Christ is not just partially freed from sin. The work of God is not partial...it is complete in Christ. There is no process of death...it is an event given to us as a gift of grace. No one is "half crucified"

Of course this is true what you’ve said.

I think when men say, but I really am a bit better than I was, they are, but not because they’re dead but because they see themselves a little more clearly and have gained a little more natural humility by seeing they had none but instead were a loud mouthed moron. It’s like David said, oh my gosh, I must have seemed like a wild beast to you!

Yes, dying happens in an instant, but it IS a process to get a man to the place where he is WILLING to die and actually WANTS to die. The more clearly he sees what he actually is, and that what he actually is is just as poor and wretched as everyone else, (and sometimes even worse than some unbelievers), the closer he moves to being willing to go to his death.

But yes, the death happens in an instant.

 

[marks]

Until a person is crucified dead in the outer man there will be an inward battle that will never be resolved. It is the power of the cross that sets us free. No one can walk in the very presence of God while the outer man is still in the picture. before we can be married with Christ we must die in our outer man. The bible is plain in its teaching on this. First the death of Christ...then the life in Christ.

It sounds here that you are describing being born again, being baptized into Jesus' death so that we can share His resurrection.

I guess this is where we come to the difference in thinking of the flesh as, well, the flesh, or, as you seem to, a "second inner man". You make this second inner man a nebulous force that must be exorcised over one's life, or something like that, am I on the right track here?

Instead, the flesh is the flesh, the body of sin is exactly that, the body . . . of sin . . . the flesh . . . where sin lives. And our inner man is new in Christ, sharing His life.

Agreed, the Bible is plain about this, that no one in flesh can be with God. We have to be in Spirit, though we still live in flesh. But if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the spirit is life because of righteousness.

We put off the old, put on the new, our minds being renewed.

Much love!

 

[marks]

No one can walk in the very presence of God while the outer man is still in the picture.

2 Corinthians 5:17-21 KJV
17) Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
18) And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;
19) To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
20) Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.
21) For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

How fully reconciled to God would you say we are?

I would say, completely. That our reconciliation is based on what Jesus did, and not on what we did. And Jesus Christ never changes.

Malachi 3:6 KJV
6) For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.

Much love!

 

[marks]

God works in the moment and moment by moment. The only thing that is gradual is the process of maturing by walking in the new life that one is experiencing over time.

This process is described in the Bible as the renewing of the mind. Putting off the old man, putting on the new man, being transformed by the renewing of the mind.

You are completely right here, no one is halfway freed from sin. Our freedom from sin is complete, only, whenever we begin to look to our own efforts, including the erroneous thought that our works of flesh will ruin our reconciliation to God, we will fail to walk in that freedom, since that freedom from sin is found in Christ's life, and His work, not our own miserable grubbing efforts as we try to "add our righteousness" to the righteousness of God by faith.

If we will in fact reckon ourselves dead to sin and alive to God - Just like God tells us to do - this is the faith in Christ that allows this new reality to become our life experience.

Much love!

 

[marks]

Of course this is true what you’ve said.

I think when men say, but I really am a bit better than I was, they are, but not because they’re dead but because they see themselves a little more clearly and have gained a little more natural humility by seeing they had none but instead were a loud mouthed moron. It’s like David said, oh my gosh, I must have seemed like a wild beast to you!

Yes, dying happens in an instant, but it IS a process to get a man to the place where he is WILLING to die and actually WANTS to die. The more clearly he sees what he actually is, and that what he actually is is just as poor and wretched as everyone else, (and sometimes even worse than some unbelievers), the closer he moves to being willing to go to his death.

But yes, the death happens in an instant.

Do you see yourself have having died in Christ? Or not yet?

@Episkopos , and you?

Much love!

 

[Karl Peters]

We are to be led by men who are at least led by the Spirit if indeed there are not any who have a continuous walk in God’s presence

Our Lord Jesus Christ through whom all things were created made men and gave them a purpose. Most times we don't have a good idea of what God's purposes really are, other than He wants people to come to know Him. That is the work of God, that all should come to know the Son.

So, some men are put into positions of leadership, whether they actually know the Lord via His Holy Spirit of not. Jesus told Pilot that he would not be in that position except for the Father's will/plan. And Pilot was certainly not lead by the Holy Spirit. Neither were the priest of that day, though they seem to make a glorious presentation of being leaders.

So as individual Christians, who is our leader? Who is our Pastor and Shepherd?

Spiritual Shepherding - is done by our Shepherd, Pastor, Teacher, Lord Jesus Christ!!!!!!!!!!!

That does not mean that the Lord doesn't put a man or woman in charge of the buildings, activities, services, and such at our local church!! And indeed that person who God put in charge should be listening to and following our Lord - BUT ALL OF US SHOLUD BE LISTENING TO AND LEAD BY OUR PASTOR WHO IS JESUS CHRIST = PERSONALLTY!!!

My Lord, leader, and paster - Jesus Christ - has me go to church. Indeed He picks out for me which church to go to, when to go, and what to do for Him there. He requires that I work with the other people that I would like to think also are there for the same reason, but too often I find they are not actually lead by my Lord.

Now my Lord Jesus Christ has had me to many things around the church. He once had me working with the bookstore my church had. I was filling in the shelves one day when a man asked me if I was going to the early midweek morning services the "pastor" of our church was doing. I told that man that I was not going to those services. The man bolding stated, "You have to listen to our pastor!"

I smiled at the man and responded, "Yes, the pastor is very good." Of course, the Lord often had me going to the regularly timed services, but I had a business to run and so things to do early in the mornings. The man made a couple of more excited comments about the pastor and those services, which I politely smile to and agree that they surely must be good. We did have a good pastor at our church.

Never-the-less, right after the man walked away the Lord boldly and clearly spoke to me, "Karl, if they tell you that you need to listen to their pastor, tell them they need to listen to your Pastor!!"

PEOPLE - YOU NEED TO BE LISTENING TO AND BE LEAD BY MY LORD AND PASTOR JESUS CHRIST!!! HIS SHEEP HEAR HIS VOICE!!

That is not meant to disrespect any leaders (men or women) the Lord has put in place at the various Christian churches. Still, we need to know and understand that our "Spiritual Shepherding" is done by our Shepherd/Pastor Jesus Christ!! He does that via His very own Holy Spirit who brings His words personally to our spirit!! We are not being lead by men listening to the Holy Spirit we are to be men listening to and being lead by our Lord via His Holy Spirit!!!

There is a big difference!!

There were a rebellious people in the desert who when brought to the mountain of God to listen to the Lord said, "Let not God speak to us" but they said they would do what Moses, as a man who would lead them, told them! So, the Lord gave them the Law to follow, which they could not do. Are we trying to be like them?

Why not decide that you want to listen to the Lord, thereby actually making Him your Lord and pastor???

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Do you see yourself have having died in Christ? Or not yet?

@Episkopos , and you?

Much love!

We’ve talked about it extensively. If my passions and emotions no longer rise up to trouble me and harass me and make me and everyone around me miserable, I had to come to that conclusion. It’s been…almost ten months. I sit here empty of them. I can’t even muster my own will for anything if it isn’t completely necessary to do. What other conclusion could I come to except that my flesh has died? I mean, if my hair caught fire, I would run to the sink but other than what is necessary, I sit here empty of my passions and will.
Of course I would like to know what comes next but who could tell me? I can’t find anyone who knows. Maybe I will sit here like this until my body dies if that’s what God wants.

 

[Episkopos]

Do you see yourself have having died in Christ? Or not yet?

@Episkopos , and you?

Much love!

I have walked in the resurrection life. The first time was for 3 days...in 1980. And the second time was for 2.5 years beginning in 1998.

I also experienced a very deep work of the cross where a spiritual knife pierced my chest one morning. Before that, I had heard a voice that said..."the countenance of God is passing over you. I was then pushed down by a hand (an angel) and felt the knife in my heart. I had to say...continue Lord ...for the experience to continue. What a miraculous time that was (1999) so that I walked like an empty shell for the next week or so. During that time I couldn't back up the car...too disoriented. But I was so close to the Lord that every breath I felt He was breathing it for me.

But I believe that was a pruning time. To walk in the crucified life means you are watching yourself as if you are stuck to a wall...like an insect...in order for the Lord to take full ownership (possession) of your soul. I don't think many understand or desire the kind of ownership that God is looking for in the intimacy of a walk in Christ. Sure a lot of people follow Christ...but at a distance.

To be IN Christ means you are partaking of His lifeblood. That blood cleanses us from ALL sin seeing we are walking in Zion...in two places at once. The spiritual realm is superimposed on this temporal realm so you can put one or the other in focus as required. You know you are walking in Zion because of the light that emanates from the corner of your eyes at that depth...and the love peace and joy inwardly that accompanies that closeness to God. But unless there is a deep fellowship with others that experience can become lonely since you are so different from everyone else. To be no longer of this world means you are seen as a foreigner...and indeed no one can relate to you in your perceptions. That road is very narrow indeed.

Even without being at the level of being in the light...there is still a level of being filled with joy and peace in a walk above sin. So then a person can indeed SEE the kingdom of God at the deeper level. But this is very rare indeed.

 

[marks]

We’ve talked about it extensively. If my passions and emotions no longer rise up to trouble me and harass me and make me and everyone around me miserable, I had to come to that conclusion. It’s been…almost ten months. I sit here empty of them. I can’t even muster my own will for anything if it isn’t completely necessary to do. What other conclusion could I come to except that my flesh has died? I mean, if my hair caught fire, I would run to the sink but other than what is necessary, I sit here empty of my passions and will.
Of course I would like to know what comes next but who could tell me? I can’t find anyone who knows. Maybe I will sit here like this until my body dies if that’s what God wants.

Do you see being dead in Christ to be reversible? That your flesh could revive? Why you feel the way you do, I think there may be various different possible reasons, from physiological to mental to spiritual.

As far as what is next, I think the teaching of the Bible is a life of service characterized in the fruit of the Spirit, is what God is working into us.

Much love!

 

[marks]

I have walked in the resurrection life. The first time was for 3 days...in 1980. And the second time was for 2.5 years beginning in 1998.

I also experienced a very deep work of the cross where a spiritual knife pierced my chest one morning. Before that, I had heard a voice that said..."the countenance of God is passing over you. I was then pushed down by a hand (an angel) and felt the knife in my heart. I had to say...continue Lord ...for the experience to continue. What a miraculous time that was (1999) so that I walked like an empty shell for the next week or so. During that time I couldn't back up the car...too disoriented. But I was so close to the Lord that every breath I felt He was breathing it for me.

But I believe that was a pruning time. To walk in the crucified life means you are watching yourself as if you are stuck to a wall...like an insect...in order for the Lord to take full ownership (possession) of your soul. I don't think many understand or desire the kind of ownership that God is looking for in the intimacy of a walk in Christ. Sure a lot of people follow Christ...but at a distance.

To be IN Christ means you are partaking of His lifeblood. That blood cleanses us from ALL sin seeing we are walking in Zion...in two places at once. The spiritual realm is superimposed on this temporal realm so you can put one or the other in focus as required. You know you are walking in Zion because of the light that emanates from the corner of your eyes at that depth...and the love peace and joy inwardly that accompanies that closeness to God. But unless there is a deep fellowship with others that experience can become lonely since you are so different from everyone else. To be no longer of this world means you are seen as a foreigner...and indeed no one can relate to you in your perceptions. That road is very narrow indeed.

Even without being at the level of being in the light...there is still a level of being filled with joy and peace in a walk above sin. So then a person can indeed SEE the kingdom of God at the deeper level. But this is very rare indeed.

I'm sorry, I don't really understand your answer. Is this to say that you do in fact see yourself having already died in Christ?

If yes, do you see that this is reversable? That such a time could come that you may cease being dead in Christ?

Much love!

 

[Lambano]

We’ve talked about it extensively. If my passions and emotions no longer rise up to trouble me and harass me and make me and everyone around me miserable, I had to come to that conclusion. It’s been…almost ten months. I sit here empty of them. I can’t even muster my own will for anything if it isn’t completely necessary to do. What other conclusion could I come to except that my flesh has died? I mean, if my hair caught fire, I would run to the sink but other than what is necessary, I sit here empty of my passions and will.
Of course I would like to know what comes next but who could tell me? I can’t find anyone who knows. Maybe I will sit here like this until my body dies if that’s what God wants.

Have you lost something essential in yourself?

You know I care about you.

 

[marks]

You know you are walking in Zion because of the light that emanates from the corner of your eyes at that depth

This I don't know.

and the love peace and joy inwardly that accompanies that closeness to God.

This I know.

but unless there is a deep fellowship with others that experience can become lonely since you are so different from everyone else. To be no longer of this world means you are seen as a foreigner...and indeed no one can relate to you in your perceptions. That road is very narrow indeed.

Why would you be lonely though? I don't find that. God is everything to me, I don't need something from others. I'm free to give.

Much love!

 

[Episkopos]

I'm sorry, I don't really understand your answer. Is this to say that you do in fact see yourself having already died in Christ?

If yes, do you see that this is reversable? That such a time could come that you may cease being dead in Christ?

Much love!

Anyone who has been in the Spirit knows you go in and out of the Spirit. Only a fully mature full-statured disciple is able to remain in such a narrow walk. That is the very point of growing into Christ or winning Christ...until Christ be formed in you. But that is SO different than who we are. So we need to take the walk in Christ in smaller doses so that we learn to get used to a crucified life. If everyone that fell out of the Spirit could never return then no one would be able to grow into Christ...to WIN Christ.

So few understand spiritual things because of all the theories that abound in human teachings that take away from the truth. So I have learned to expect that few will understand what I'm talking about.

I have been in the full walk...dead and alive in Christ...twice so far. John Wesley speaks of a man he knew that went in and out of the Spirit 5 times before he learned the secret about remaining in Christ. That is the way of the saint. And I'm not saying that I am worthy of being a saint. I may not measure up. I don't know if God will let me back in. But I keep running the race to win and let God decide these things.

 

[marks]

Anyone who has been in the Spirit knows you go in and out of the Spirit. Only a fully mature full-statured disciple is able to remain in such a narrow walk. That is the very point of growing into Christ or winning Christ...until Christ be formed in you. But that is SO different than who we are. So we need to take the walk in Christ in smaller doses so that we learn to get used to a crucified life. If everyone that fell out of the Spirit could never return then no one would be able to grow into Christ...to WIN Christ.

So few understand spiritual things because of all the theories that abound in human teachings that take away from the truth. So I have learned to expect that few will understand what I'm talking about.

I have been in the full walk...dead and alive in Christ...twice so far. John Wesley speaks of a man he knew that went in and out of the Spirit 5 times before he learned the secret about remaining in Christ. That is the way of the saint. And I'm not saying that I am worthy of being a saint. I may not measure up. I don't know if God will let me back in. But I keep running the race to win and let God decide these things.

OK, thank you! So then to your understanding, being dead and alive in Christ is something one may switch back and forth from one to the other then back again, is that the right idea?

Much love!

 

[marks]

Anyone who has been in the Spirit knows you go in and out of the Spirit.

Romans 8:9 KJV
But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

Much love!