soberxp
Well-Known Member
I don't know what hope about the angles.
I asked that is life come from God, death from Satan the devil,
If God judge the human to death, then Satan and the devil have won, And in a sense took the place of God.
Standing… Survey… YES or NO………………?ONCE SAV-ED…SAV-ED FOREVER [OSAS)?
- Thread starter Taken
- Start date
-
Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.
You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
I asked that is life come from God, death from Satan the devil,
If God judge the human to death, then Satan and the devil have won, And in a sense took the place of God.
Nameaboveallnames
Active Member
There are multiple ways, throughout both the old and new testaments alike, to refute the potentially damnable heresy of “once saved, always saved” or “OSAS." In this post, I will begin to refute this heresy by examining some of the teachings of Jesus Christ as recorded in his parables. I have deliberately chosen the words of Jesus because if anybody knows whether or not “once saved, always saved” is true, then it is most certainly the Savior himself. As we are about to see, Jesus never taught “once saved, always saved” as a doctrine. Instead, he regularly taught the opposite or that people who were “once saved” could later be lost.
Turning to one of his parables, we read:
Mark chapter 4
[1] And he began again to teach by the sea side: and there was gathered unto him a great multitude, so that he entered into a ship, and sat in the sea; and the whole multitude was by the sea on the land.
[2] And he taught them many things by parables, and said unto them in his doctrine,
[3] Hearken; Behold, there went out a sower to sow:
[4] And it came to pass, as he sowed, some fell by the way side, and the fowls of the air came and devoured it up.
[5] And some fell on stony ground, where it had not much earth; and immediately it sprang up, because it had no depth of earth:
[6] But when the sun was up, it was scorched; and because it had no root, it withered away.
[7] And some fell among thorns, and the thorns grew up, and choked it, and it yielded no fruit.
[8] And other fell on good ground, and did yield fruit that sprang up and increased; and brought forth, some thirty, and some sixty, and some an hundred.
[9] And he said unto them, He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.
[10] And when he was alone, they that were about him with the twelve asked of him the parable.
[11] And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables:
[12] That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them.
[13] And he said unto them, Know ye not this parable? and how then will ye know all parables?
[14] The sower soweth the word.
[15] And these are they by the way side, where the word is sown; but when they have heard, Satan cometh immediately, and taketh away the word that was sown in their hearts.
[16] And these are they likewise which are sown on stony ground; who, when they have heard the word, immediately receive it with gladness;
[17] And have no root in themselves, and so endure but for a time: afterward, when affliction or persecution ariseth for the word's sake, immediately they are offended.
[18] And these are they which are sown among thorns; such as hear the word,
[19] And the cares of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, and the lusts of other things entering in, choke the word, and it becometh unfruitful.
[20] And these are they which are sown on good ground; such as hear the word, and receive it, and bring forth fruit, some thirtyfold, some sixty, and some an hundred.
The first thing that we need to notice is Jesus’ question to his disciples in verse 13.
“Know ye not this parable? and how then will ye know all parables?”
Here, Jesus was informing his disciples that they would not be able to properly understand all of his other parables without first properly understanding this particular parable.
With such being the case, what did Jesus teach in regard to salvation in this parable?
Did he teach “once saved, always saved," or did he, in reality, teach the opposite of the same?
In this parable, Jesus spoke of four different types of soil or four different conditions of the human heart with which the seed of God’s word makes contact. In verses 4 and 15, in relation to the seed which “fell by the way side," Jesus said:
“And these are they by the way side, where the word is sown; but when they have heard, Satan cometh immediately, and taketh away the word that was sown in their hearts.”
This first group of hearers, sad to say, were never “saved” to begin with in that Satan immediately came and took away the word that was sown in their hearts. With such being the case, “once saved, always saved” has no real relevance here. In verses 5 and 16-17, in relation to the seed which “fell upon stony ground," Jesus said:
“And these are they likewise which are sown on stony ground; who, when they have heard the word, immediately receive it with gladness; And have no root in themselves, and so endure but for a time: afterward, when affliction or persecution ariseth for the word's sake, immediately they are offended.”
This group of hearers, “when they have heard the word, immediately receive it with gladness” and “endure but for a time." Yes, as Jesus said, “immediately it sprang up” or immediately the word which was received had results regarding salvation. In the parallel account of this parable in Matthew’s gospel, this group of hearers “dureth for a while” (Mat. 13:21), and in the parallel account in Luke’s gospel, this group of hearers “for a while believe” (Luke 8:13). With such being the case, these hearers were “once saved”, but, sad to say, they were not “always saved” in that “when affliction or persecution ariseth for the word’s sake, immediately they are offended” or, as Luke’s account puts it, these hearers are those who “in time of temptation fall away” (Luke 8:13). Let us not delude ourselves. One simply cannot “fall away” from something of which he or she was never a part of to begin with, so Jesus was definitely NOT teaching “once saved, always saved” here. In verses 7 and 18-19, in relation to the seed which “fell among thorns," Jesus said:
“And these are they which are sown among thorns; such as hear the word, And the cares of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, and the lusts of other things entering in, choke the word, and it becometh unfruitful.”
This group of hearers initially received the word and bore fruit until the time came that “the cares of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, and the lusts of other things entering in, choke the word, and it becometh unfruitful”. Again, let us be real, and let us not delude ourselves. Something or, in this case, someone cannot “become unfruitful” unless it/he/she was first fruitful. In fact, in the parallel account in Luke’s gospel, this group of hearers “bring no fruit to perfection” (Luke 8:14). Again, there was some initial growth in relation to “fruit," but, sad to say, such got choked and it became unfruitful, so no “once saved, always saved” here, either. In verses 8 and 20, in relation to the seed which “fell on good ground," Jesus said:
“And these are they which are sown on good ground; such as hear the word, and receive it, and bring forth fruit, some thirtyfold, some sixty, and some an hundred.”
Here is what Jesus said about this group of hearers in Luke’s parallel account:
“But that on the good ground are they, which in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keep it, and bring forth fruit with patience.” (Luke 8:15)
Obviously, it is not enough to initially receive the word which is sown within our hearts, but we must “keep it, and bring forth fruit with patience”. In other words, as Jesus said elsewhere, it is only “he that endureth to the end” who “shall be saved” (Mat. 10:22, 24:13).
(Continued in my next post)
Last edited:
Nameaboveallnames
Active Member
(Continued from my previous post)
With this understanding before us, let us quickly look at some of Jesus’ other parables and see what he taught there in relation to “once saved, always saved."
Turning to Matthew’s gospel, we read:
Matthew chapter 18
[21] Then came Peter to him, and said, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? till seven times?
[22] Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven.
[23] Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain king, which would take account of his servants.
[24] And when he had begun to reckon, one was brought unto him, which owed him ten thousand talents.
[25] But forasmuch as he had not to pay, his lord commanded him to be sold, and his wife, and children, and all that he had, and payment to be made.
[26] The servant therefore fell down, and worshipped him, saying, Lord, have patience with me, and I will pay thee all.
[27] Then the lord of that servant was moved with compassion, and loosed him, and forgave him the debt.
[28] But the same servant went out, and found one of his fellowservants, which owed him an hundred pence: and he laid hands on him, and took him by the throat, saying, Pay me that thou owest.
[29] And his fellowservant fell down at his feet, and besought him, saying, Have patience with me, and I will pay thee all.
[30] And he would not: but went and cast him into prison, till he should pay the debt.
[31] So when his fellowservants saw what was done, they were very sorry, and came and told unto their lord all that was done.
[32] Then his lord, after that he had called him, said unto him, O thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all that debt, because thou desiredst me:
[33] Shouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellowservant, even as I had pity on thee?
[34] And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him.
[35] So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.
This “servant” was initially “loosed” from his “debt” or forgiven of his trespasses by his “king” and “lord," who was Jesus, only to later have the same “debt” reinstated in full. Furthermore, this “servant” was ultimately “delivered to the tormentors.”
Does this sound like “once saved, always saved” to you?
If it does, then you are seriously self-deluded (with some help from Satan and/or demons). Here, Jesus plainly taught that if we will not forgive our brother’s trespasses against us, then our own trespasses will not be forgiven either…even if they previously were forgiven. Again, no “once saved, always saved” here.
Let us now look at another parable of Jesus.
Matthew chapter 25
[1] Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom.
[2] And five of them were wise, and five were foolish.
[3] They that were foolish took their lamps, and took no oil with them:
[4] But the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps.
[5] While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept.
[6] And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him.
[7] Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps.
[8] And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out.
[9] But the wise answered, saying, Not so; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves.
[10] And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.
[11] Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.
[12] But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.
[13] Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.
Here, we have an account of ten virgins, and not an account of five virgins and five fornicators, whores, adulteresses, etc. All ten of these virgins “took their lamps and went forth to meet the bridegroom."
Who is “the bridegroom?"
Of course, "the bridegroom" is none other than Jesus Christ (John 3:29). With such being the case, all ten of these virgins were saved at some point in time, and they were all awaiting the second coming of Jesus Christ. However, five of these virgins were wise, and five were foolish. Those who “were foolish took their lamps and took no oil with them." We know that “oil” signifies the anointing in scripture, but we are not to mistakenly believe that these five foolish virgins were never anointed or never Christians to begin with.
Why should we not make such a terrible mistake?
Well, because we are told of the five foolish virgins “our lamps are gone out." Once again, let us not delude ourselves. Lamps cannot “go out” if they were never lit to begin with. These five foolish virgins initially had lamps which were lit with “oil," or they all initially had the light of Christ within them in that they were born again of his Spirit.
Were these five foolish virgins “once saved, always saved?"
No, they were not. In fact, Jesus ultimately shut the door to them and told them, “Verily I say unto you, I know you not."
Continuing in this same 25th chapter of Matthew’s gospel, we read:
[14] For the kingdom of heaven is as a man travelling into a far country, who called his own servants, and delivered unto them his goods.
[15] And unto one he gave five talents, to another two, and to another one; to every man according to his several ability; and straightway took his journey.
[16] Then he that had received the five talents went and traded with the same, and made them other five talents.
[17] And likewise he that had received two, he also gained other two.
[18] But he that had received one went and digged in the earth, and hid his lord's money.
[19] After a long time the lord of those servants cometh, and reckoneth with them.
[20] And so he that had received five talents came and brought other five talents, saying, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me five talents: behold, I have gained beside them five talents more.
[21] His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.
[22] He also that had received two talents came and said, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me two talents: behold, I have gained two other talents beside them.
[23] His lord said unto him, Well done, good and faithful servant; thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.
[24] Then he which had received the one talent came and said, Lord, I knew thee that thou art an hard man, reaping where thou hast not sown, and gathering where thou hast not strawed:
[25] And I was afraid, and went and hid thy talent in the earth: lo, there thou hast that is thine.
[26] His lord answered and said unto him, Thou wicked and slothful servant, thou knewest that I reap where I sowed not, and gather where I have not strawed:
[27] Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and then at my coming I should have received mine own with usury.
[28] Take therefore the talent from him, and give it unto him which hath ten talents.
[29] For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath.
[30] And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Here, we see the same exact principle. All three of the “servants” in this parable are “his own servants” in that Jesus is “the lord of those servants." All three of the Lord’s servants were given "talents" by Jesus, but one of them had it taken back by Jesus because he did not give it back to the Lord with “usury” or interest, and he was ultimately “cast…into outer darkness” where “there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth."
Again, does this sound like Jesus was teaching “once saved, always saved?"
Of course, he was not, and he never did. All who teach the same are heretics, and heretics will not fare well with the Lord on the day of judgment (Gal. 5:19-21).
(Continued in my next post)
With this understanding before us, let us quickly look at some of Jesus’ other parables and see what he taught there in relation to “once saved, always saved."
Turning to Matthew’s gospel, we read:
Matthew chapter 18
[21] Then came Peter to him, and said, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? till seven times?
[22] Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven.
[23] Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain king, which would take account of his servants.
[24] And when he had begun to reckon, one was brought unto him, which owed him ten thousand talents.
[25] But forasmuch as he had not to pay, his lord commanded him to be sold, and his wife, and children, and all that he had, and payment to be made.
[26] The servant therefore fell down, and worshipped him, saying, Lord, have patience with me, and I will pay thee all.
[27] Then the lord of that servant was moved with compassion, and loosed him, and forgave him the debt.
[28] But the same servant went out, and found one of his fellowservants, which owed him an hundred pence: and he laid hands on him, and took him by the throat, saying, Pay me that thou owest.
[29] And his fellowservant fell down at his feet, and besought him, saying, Have patience with me, and I will pay thee all.
[30] And he would not: but went and cast him into prison, till he should pay the debt.
[31] So when his fellowservants saw what was done, they were very sorry, and came and told unto their lord all that was done.
[32] Then his lord, after that he had called him, said unto him, O thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all that debt, because thou desiredst me:
[33] Shouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellowservant, even as I had pity on thee?
[34] And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him.
[35] So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.
This “servant” was initially “loosed” from his “debt” or forgiven of his trespasses by his “king” and “lord," who was Jesus, only to later have the same “debt” reinstated in full. Furthermore, this “servant” was ultimately “delivered to the tormentors.”
Does this sound like “once saved, always saved” to you?
If it does, then you are seriously self-deluded (with some help from Satan and/or demons). Here, Jesus plainly taught that if we will not forgive our brother’s trespasses against us, then our own trespasses will not be forgiven either…even if they previously were forgiven. Again, no “once saved, always saved” here.
Let us now look at another parable of Jesus.
Matthew chapter 25
[1] Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom.
[2] And five of them were wise, and five were foolish.
[3] They that were foolish took their lamps, and took no oil with them:
[4] But the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps.
[5] While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept.
[6] And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him.
[7] Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps.
[8] And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out.
[9] But the wise answered, saying, Not so; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves.
[10] And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.
[11] Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.
[12] But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.
[13] Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.
Here, we have an account of ten virgins, and not an account of five virgins and five fornicators, whores, adulteresses, etc. All ten of these virgins “took their lamps and went forth to meet the bridegroom."
Who is “the bridegroom?"
Of course, "the bridegroom" is none other than Jesus Christ (John 3:29). With such being the case, all ten of these virgins were saved at some point in time, and they were all awaiting the second coming of Jesus Christ. However, five of these virgins were wise, and five were foolish. Those who “were foolish took their lamps and took no oil with them." We know that “oil” signifies the anointing in scripture, but we are not to mistakenly believe that these five foolish virgins were never anointed or never Christians to begin with.
Why should we not make such a terrible mistake?
Well, because we are told of the five foolish virgins “our lamps are gone out." Once again, let us not delude ourselves. Lamps cannot “go out” if they were never lit to begin with. These five foolish virgins initially had lamps which were lit with “oil," or they all initially had the light of Christ within them in that they were born again of his Spirit.
Were these five foolish virgins “once saved, always saved?"
No, they were not. In fact, Jesus ultimately shut the door to them and told them, “Verily I say unto you, I know you not."
Continuing in this same 25th chapter of Matthew’s gospel, we read:
[14] For the kingdom of heaven is as a man travelling into a far country, who called his own servants, and delivered unto them his goods.
[15] And unto one he gave five talents, to another two, and to another one; to every man according to his several ability; and straightway took his journey.
[16] Then he that had received the five talents went and traded with the same, and made them other five talents.
[17] And likewise he that had received two, he also gained other two.
[18] But he that had received one went and digged in the earth, and hid his lord's money.
[19] After a long time the lord of those servants cometh, and reckoneth with them.
[20] And so he that had received five talents came and brought other five talents, saying, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me five talents: behold, I have gained beside them five talents more.
[21] His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.
[22] He also that had received two talents came and said, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me two talents: behold, I have gained two other talents beside them.
[23] His lord said unto him, Well done, good and faithful servant; thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.
[24] Then he which had received the one talent came and said, Lord, I knew thee that thou art an hard man, reaping where thou hast not sown, and gathering where thou hast not strawed:
[25] And I was afraid, and went and hid thy talent in the earth: lo, there thou hast that is thine.
[26] His lord answered and said unto him, Thou wicked and slothful servant, thou knewest that I reap where I sowed not, and gather where I have not strawed:
[27] Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and then at my coming I should have received mine own with usury.
[28] Take therefore the talent from him, and give it unto him which hath ten talents.
[29] For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath.
[30] And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Here, we see the same exact principle. All three of the “servants” in this parable are “his own servants” in that Jesus is “the lord of those servants." All three of the Lord’s servants were given "talents" by Jesus, but one of them had it taken back by Jesus because he did not give it back to the Lord with “usury” or interest, and he was ultimately “cast…into outer darkness” where “there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth."
Again, does this sound like Jesus was teaching “once saved, always saved?"
Of course, he was not, and he never did. All who teach the same are heretics, and heretics will not fare well with the Lord on the day of judgment (Gal. 5:19-21).
(Continued in my next post)
Nameaboveallnames
Active Member
(Continued from my previous post)
Turning quickly to Luke’s gospel, we read:
Luke chapter 14
[25] And there went great multitudes with him: and he turned, and said unto them,
[26] If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.
[27] And whosoever doth not bear his cross, and come after me, cannot be my disciple.
[28] For which of you, intending to build a tower, sitteth not down first, and counteth the cost, whether he have sufficient to finish it?
[29] Lest haply, after he hath laid the foundation, and is not able to finish it, all that behold it begin to mock him,
[30] Saying, This man began to build, and was not able to finish.
[31] Or what king, going to make war against another king, sitteth not down first, and consulteth whether he be able with ten thousand to meet him that cometh against him with twenty thousand?
[32] Or else, while the other is yet a great way off, he sendeth an ambassage, and desireth conditions of peace.
[33] So likewise, whosoever he be of you that forsaketh not all that he hath, he cannot be my disciple.
[34] Salt is good: but if the salt have lost his savour, wherewith shall it be seasoned?
[35] It is neither fit for the land, nor yet for the dunghill; but men cast it out. He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.
Unlike the compromising "hirelings" (John 10:12) of today, Jesus did not tickle the ears of his audience. Instead, he told the great multitudes that followed him exactly what the cost of discipleship is. If our love for others does not seem to be hatred by comparison to our love for Jesus, then we cannot be his disciples. Similarly, if we do not truly bear our crosses, or if we are not truly crucified with Christ to this world, then we cannot be his disciples. Also, as we are about to see yet again, even if we begin correctly, then we simply are not saved if we do not endure to the end.
Regarding the builders of towers, we need to FIRST sit down and count the cost to see whether or not we have sufficient to finish it.
Why?
Because even after we have laid the foundation, and there is no other foundation that can be laid other than Jesus Christ (1 Cor. 3:11), we still might not be able to finish it. Again, it matters not if we begin correctly if we do not endure unto the end to be saved.
The same exact principle applies to those going to war. Again, we need to FIRST sit down and consult whether we are able to overcome our enemy or else we will ultimately send out an ambassage and desire conditions of peace with the enemy of our souls, Satan. Those who make peace with Satan are not saved.
As Jesus continued on to say, we must forsake all that we have to be his disciples. Jesus also warned of salt that has lost its savor or its saltiness. Christians are called "the salt of the earth" (Mat. 5:13), but we can lose our saltiness. Again, it does not matter if we begin "salty.” What matters is that we remain "salty" until the end.
What happens to us if we do not retain our saltiness?
Jesus said that we are not even fit for a dunghill or to be thrown into a heap of crap. No, instead, he said that we will be "cast out." Yet again, let us not delude ourselves. Those who are "cast out" are not “once saved, always saved.”
What I have shared here is but a brief introduction or a small sample of Jesus’ teachings on this topic, and he never taught anything even remotely close to "once saved, always saved." Instead, he regularly taught the opposite because he was not an ear-tickling and man-pleasing heretic like so many charlatans are today.
Who has ears to hear, let them hear.
Turning quickly to Luke’s gospel, we read:
Luke chapter 14
[25] And there went great multitudes with him: and he turned, and said unto them,
[26] If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.
[27] And whosoever doth not bear his cross, and come after me, cannot be my disciple.
[28] For which of you, intending to build a tower, sitteth not down first, and counteth the cost, whether he have sufficient to finish it?
[29] Lest haply, after he hath laid the foundation, and is not able to finish it, all that behold it begin to mock him,
[30] Saying, This man began to build, and was not able to finish.
[31] Or what king, going to make war against another king, sitteth not down first, and consulteth whether he be able with ten thousand to meet him that cometh against him with twenty thousand?
[32] Or else, while the other is yet a great way off, he sendeth an ambassage, and desireth conditions of peace.
[33] So likewise, whosoever he be of you that forsaketh not all that he hath, he cannot be my disciple.
[34] Salt is good: but if the salt have lost his savour, wherewith shall it be seasoned?
[35] It is neither fit for the land, nor yet for the dunghill; but men cast it out. He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.
Unlike the compromising "hirelings" (John 10:12) of today, Jesus did not tickle the ears of his audience. Instead, he told the great multitudes that followed him exactly what the cost of discipleship is. If our love for others does not seem to be hatred by comparison to our love for Jesus, then we cannot be his disciples. Similarly, if we do not truly bear our crosses, or if we are not truly crucified with Christ to this world, then we cannot be his disciples. Also, as we are about to see yet again, even if we begin correctly, then we simply are not saved if we do not endure to the end.
Regarding the builders of towers, we need to FIRST sit down and count the cost to see whether or not we have sufficient to finish it.
Why?
Because even after we have laid the foundation, and there is no other foundation that can be laid other than Jesus Christ (1 Cor. 3:11), we still might not be able to finish it. Again, it matters not if we begin correctly if we do not endure unto the end to be saved.
The same exact principle applies to those going to war. Again, we need to FIRST sit down and consult whether we are able to overcome our enemy or else we will ultimately send out an ambassage and desire conditions of peace with the enemy of our souls, Satan. Those who make peace with Satan are not saved.
As Jesus continued on to say, we must forsake all that we have to be his disciples. Jesus also warned of salt that has lost its savor or its saltiness. Christians are called "the salt of the earth" (Mat. 5:13), but we can lose our saltiness. Again, it does not matter if we begin "salty.” What matters is that we remain "salty" until the end.
What happens to us if we do not retain our saltiness?
Jesus said that we are not even fit for a dunghill or to be thrown into a heap of crap. No, instead, he said that we will be "cast out." Yet again, let us not delude ourselves. Those who are "cast out" are not “once saved, always saved.”
What I have shared here is but a brief introduction or a small sample of Jesus’ teachings on this topic, and he never taught anything even remotely close to "once saved, always saved." Instead, he regularly taught the opposite because he was not an ear-tickling and man-pleasing heretic like so many charlatans are today.
Who has ears to hear, let them hear.
Last edited:
I find no value in some silly claim void of any source or evidence.
Disagree.
* Gods Word IS His WORD revealing preferred and opposing Views and consequences pER an individuals Choice.
* Verification for Gods Word is Scripture.
Disagree.
Condemnation is a consequence unto a man For non- Belief.
Book/s is mentioned over 300 times in Gods Approved Word.
Evidence (books) / records are satisfactory proof for the accused… Not God.
Ex 32:
[33] And the LORD said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book.
Rev 20:
[12] And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Rev. 21:
[27] And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.
Figurative? Disagree.
Books, Records, Evidence are highly regarded being important.
47,000 denomination…Evidence?
They all conflict with Scripture… Evidence?
Saving or Not is determined By the Creator AND Maker…
Creator LORD Yahweh.
Maker Lord Jesus.
LORD Saves and Rejects per the Evidence.
Lord Saves and rejects per the Evidence.
Evidence is Written IN Books.
The LORDS Book of Life.
The Lambs Book of Life.
Who… (LORD or Lord)… SAVES WHOM…
and When…
and Why…
IS…
Orally Declared…
and IS…
Verified IN Written EVIDENTIARY Scripture.
My doctrine was adopted from Lord Jesus’ Doctrine, as The LORD provided me, For His Offering to me, of
His Promises;
His Mercy;
His Blessings;
His Truths;
His Understandings;
His Forgiveness;
His Quickening;
His Salvation;
To which, ONCE Received, Nothing can Revoke the Reception.
May be a strange doctrine to you….
No matter or effect on me.
My goal was to be approved by the Lord God… not you.
Glory to God,
Taken
Eternally Grateful
Well-Known Member
But thats not right
Death did not come from satan
Death came from our own actions. Satan is as guilty as the rest of us.
The only way satan wins is if he gets a get out of Hell card.
that's not going to happen.
Big Boy Johnson
Well-Known Member
There a few universalists here that claim in the end satan and his demons will get saved and be allowed in to Heaven
NotTheRock
Well-Known Member
'everlasting destruction' seem to me that is eternal
Now who here is promoting an idea that is a strange doctrine from what the church has taught for millennia?
8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes, in that Day, to be glorified in His saints and to be admired among all those who [a]believe, because our testimony among you was believed.
Bible Gateway passage: 2 Thessalonians 1:8-10 - New King James Version
in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, when He comes, in that Day, to be glorified in His...www.biblegateway.com
some verses in the word 'everlasting'. Everlasting God, but not everlasting punishment, everlasting chains, everlasting life, everlasting kingdom, everlasting covenant, everlasting fire? And so on.
If God is everlasting, then God has the power to create everlasting conditions.
Matthew 25:46
And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”
1 Timothy 1:16
However, for this reason I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might show all longsuffering, as a pattern to those who are going to believe on Him for everlasting life.
2 Peter 1:11
for so an entrance will be supplied to you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
Hebrews 13:20
Now may the God of peace who brought up our Lord Jesus from the dead, that great Shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant,
1 Timothy 6:16
who alone has immortality, dwelling in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see, to whom be honor and everlasting power. Amen.
2 Thessalonians 2:16
Now may our Lord Jesus Christ Himself, and our God and Father, who has loved us and given us everlasting consolation and good hope by grace,
Jude 1:6
And the angels who did not keep their proper domain, but left their own abode, He has reserved in everlasting chains under darkness for the judgment of the great day;
Revelation 14:6
Then I saw another angel flying in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach to those who dwell on the earth—to every nation, tribe, tongue, and people—
Romans 16:26
but now made manifest, and by the prophetic Scriptures made known to all nations, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, for obedience to the faith—
Matthew 25:41
“Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:
Mistranslation of the original Koine Greek gave us the Satanic doctrine of forever Hell.
Jude 1:7 King James Version
7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.
Jude 1:7 Young's Literal Translation
7 as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities around them, in like manner to these, having given themselves to whoredom, and gone after other flesh, have been set before -- an example, of fire age-during, justice suffering.
We know that there is no "eternal fire" occurring in the area in and around the ancient ruins of Sodom and Gomorrha, which demonstrates that the use of the word "eternal" in Jude 1:7 is erroneous.
The YLT translation that I shared above is the correct translation. The ancient Koine Greek word that early Bible translators got wrong is "αἰωνίου" or "aiōniou". This word denotes an unspecified period of time that has been mistranslated into words such as "eternal", "everlasting", "forever", and even "world".
Here are scholarly explanations which better define "αἰωνίου" or "aiōniou" (and their derivatives).
Encyclopedic Dictionary of the Bible: Eternity: The Bible hardly speaks of eternity in a philosophical sense of infinite duration without beginning or end. The Hebrew word olam, which is used alone (Ps. 61:8) or with various prepositions (Ge. 3:22; 13:15, etc.) in contexts where it is traditionally translated "forever," means, in itself, no more than "for an indefinitely long period." Thus, me-olam does not mean "from eternity," but "of old" (Ge 6:4, etc.). In the N.T., aion is used as the equivalent of olam.
The New Testament in Modern Speech, by Dr. R. F. Weymouth: Eternal: Greek: "aeonion," i.e., "of the ages." Etymologically this adjective, like others similarly formed, does not signify "during," but "belonging to" the aeons or ages.
The Interpreter's Dictionary of the Bible (vol. IV, p. 643): Time: The O.T. and the N.T are not acquainted with the conception of eternity as timelessness. The O.T. has not developed a special term for "eternity." The word aion originally meant "vital force," "life;" then "age," "lifetime." It is, however, also used generally of a (limited or unlimited) long space of time. The use of the word aion is determined very much by the O.T. and the LXX. Aion means "long distant uninterrupted time" in the past (Luke 1:10), as well as in the future (John 4:14).
Ellicott's Commentary on the Whole Bible (Matt. 25:46): Everlasting punishment-life eternal. The two adjectives represent the same Greek word, aionios-it must be admitted (1) that the Greek word which is rendered "eternal" does not, in itself, involve endlessness, but rather, duration, whether through an age or succession of ages, and that it is therefore applied in the N.T. to periods of time that have had both a beginning and ending (Rom. 16:25), where the Greek is "from aeonian times;" our version giving "since the world began." (Comp. 2 Tim. 1:9; Tit. 1:3) -strictly speaking, therefore, the word, as such, apart from its association with any qualifying substantive, implies a vast undefined duration, rather than one in the full sense of the word "infinite."
Triglot Dictionary of Representative Words in Hebrew, Greek and English [this dictionary lists the words in this order: English, Greek, Hebrew] (p. 122): Eternal (see age-lasting). (p. 6): English: age-lasting; Greek, aionios; Hebrew, le-olam.
Unconditional election (also called sovereign election[1] or unconditional grace) is a Calvinist doctrine relating to predestination that describes the actions and motives of God prior to his creation of the world, when he predestined some people to receive salvation, the elect, and the rest he left to continue in their sins and receive the just punishment, eternal damnation
This is what you have chosen to believe.
You can not know if you belong to the elect or to the dammed, it's God's sovereign choice, you can only hope.
And live in fear.
People not elect do not have godly fear of losing salvation. They have no love for God due to the enmity they have inside them against God and Christ. They also do not study or believe scripture, do not believe in Christ. If they are among church people they depart from the faith in unbelief.
Elect people have an anointing from God to know the truth, anyone else denies the Father and the Son.
To say otherwise like you do is to deny the scriptures.
1 John 2
18 Little children, it is the last hour; and as you have heard that the[d] Antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come, by which we know that it is the last hour. 19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.
20 But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and you[e] know all things. 21 I have not written to you because you do not know the truth, but because you know it, and that no lie is of the truth.
22 Who is a liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist who denies the Father and the Son. 23 Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father either; he who acknowledges the Son has the Father also.
24 Therefore let that abide in you which you heard from the beginning. If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, you also will abide in the Son and in the Father. 25 And this is the promise that He has promised us—eternal life.
26 These things I have written to you concerning those who try to [f]deceive you.
27 But the anointing which you have received from Him abides in you, and you do not need that anyone teach you; but as the same anointing teaches you concerning all things, and is true, and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you [g]will abide in Him.
People who are not believers in Christ have no fear of God, the Lord Jesus, though they may fear their false demonic gods.
Genesis 20:11
And Abraham said, “Because I thought, surely the fear of God is not in this place; and they will kill me on account of my wife.
Leviticus 19:14
You shall not curse the deaf, nor put a stumbling block before the blind, but shall fear your God: I am the Lord.
Leviticus 25:36
Take no usury or interest from him; but fear your God, that your brother may live with you.
Leviticus 25:43
You shall not rule over him with rigor, but you shall fear your God.
Luke 12
4 “And I say to you, My friends, do not be afraid of those who kill the body, and after that have no more that they can do. 5 But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear Him who, after He has killed, has power to cast into hell; yes, I say to you, fear Him!
Romans 3
10 As it is written:
“There is none righteous, no, not one;
11 There is none who understands;
There is none who seeks after God.
12 They have all turned aside;
They have together become unprofitable;
There is none who does good, no, not one.”
13 “Their throat is an open [d]tomb;
With their tongues they have practiced deceit”;
“The poison of asps is under their lips”;
14 “Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness.”
15 “Their feet are swift to shed blood;
16 Destruction and misery are in their ways;
17 And the way of peace they have not known.”
18 “There is no fear of God before their eyes.”
Colossians 3:22
Bondservants, obey in all things your masters according to the flesh, not with eyeservice, as men-pleasers, but in sincerity of heart, fearing God.
Hebrews 11:7
By faith Noah, being divinely warned of things not yet seen, moved with godly fear, prepared an ark for the saving of his household, by which he condemned the world and became heir of the righteousness which is according to faith.
Hebrews 12:28
Therefore, since we are receiving a kingdom which cannot be shaken, let us have grace, by which we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear.
1 Peter 2:17
Honor all people. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honor the king.
Hebrews 5:7
who, in the days of His flesh, when He had offered up prayers and supplications, with vehement cries and tears to Him who was able to save Him from death, and was heard because of His godly fear,
It is almost laughable, if it were not so sad, that today some believers have no fear of God the Lord, just as the unbelieving also do not fear God.
I think I have shown enough verses that show the truth here.
Genesis 20:11
And Abraham said, “Because I thought, surely the fear of God is not in this place; and they will kill me on account of my wife.
Leviticus 19:14
You shall not curse the deaf, nor put a stumbling block before the blind, but shall fear your God: I am the Lord.
Leviticus 25:36
Take no usury or interest from him; but fear your God, that your brother may live with you.
Leviticus 25:43
You shall not rule over him with rigor, but you shall fear your God.
Luke 12
4 “And I say to you, My friends, do not be afraid of those who kill the body, and after that have no more that they can do. 5 But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear Him who, after He has killed, has power to cast into hell; yes, I say to you, fear Him!
Romans 3
10 As it is written:
“There is none righteous, no, not one;
11 There is none who understands;
There is none who seeks after God.
12 They have all turned aside;
They have together become unprofitable;
There is none who does good, no, not one.”
13 “Their throat is an open [d]tomb;
With their tongues they have practiced deceit”;
“The poison of asps is under their lips”;
14 “Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness.”
15 “Their feet are swift to shed blood;
16 Destruction and misery are in their ways;
17 And the way of peace they have not known.”
18 “There is no fear of God before their eyes.”
Colossians 3:22
Bondservants, obey in all things your masters according to the flesh, not with eyeservice, as men-pleasers, but in sincerity of heart, fearing God.
Hebrews 11:7
By faith Noah, being divinely warned of things not yet seen, moved with godly fear, prepared an ark for the saving of his household, by which he condemned the world and became heir of the righteousness which is according to faith.
Hebrews 12:28
Therefore, since we are receiving a kingdom which cannot be shaken, let us have grace, by which we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear.
1 Peter 2:17
Honor all people. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honor the king.
Hebrews 5:7
who, in the days of His flesh, when He had offered up prayers and supplications, with vehement cries and tears to Him who was able to save Him from death, and was heard because of His godly fear,
It is almost laughable, if it were not so sad, that today some believers have no fear of God the Lord, just as the unbelieving also do not fear God.
I think I have shown enough verses that show the truth here.
The below here is typical of the unbelieving, even today, who have no fear of God, and their eventual judgment of destruction.
Daniel 5
17 Then Daniel answered, and said before the king, “Let your gifts be for yourself, and give your rewards to another; yet I will read the writing to the king, and make known to him the interpretation. 18 O king, the Most High God gave Nebuchadnezzar your [k]father a kingdom and majesty, glory and honor. 19 And because of the majesty that He gave him, all peoples, nations, and languages trembled and feared before him. Whomever he wished, he executed; whomever he wished, he kept alive; whomever he wished, he set up; and whomever he wished, he put down. 20 But when his heart was lifted up, and his spirit was hardened in pride, he was deposed from his kingly throne, and they took his glory from him. 21 Then he was driven from the sons of men, his heart was made like the beasts, and his dwelling was with the wild donkeys. They fed him with grass like oxen, and his body was wet with the dew of heaven, till he [l]knew that the Most High God rules in the kingdom of men, and appoints over it whomever He chooses.
22 “But you his son, Belshazzar, have not humbled your heart, although you knew all this. 23 And you have [m]lifted yourself up against the Lord of heaven. They have brought the vessels of [n]His house before you, and you and your lords, your wives and your concubines, have drunk wine from them. And you have praised the gods of silver and gold, bronze and iron, wood and stone, which do not see or hear or know; and the God who holds your breath in His hand and owns all your ways, you have not glorified. 24 Then the [o]fingers of the hand were sent from Him, and this writing was written.
25 “And this is the inscription that was written:
[p]MENE, MENE, [q]TEKEL, [r]UPHARSIN.
26 This is the interpretation of each word. MENE: God has numbered your kingdom, and finished it; 27 TEKEL: You have been weighed in the balances, and found wanting; 28 PERES: Your kingdom has been divided, and given to the Medes and Persians.”[s] 29 Then Belshazzar gave the command, and they clothed Daniel with purple and put a chain of gold around his neck, and made a proclamation concerning him that he should be the third ruler in the kingdom.
Daniel 5
17 Then Daniel answered, and said before the king, “Let your gifts be for yourself, and give your rewards to another; yet I will read the writing to the king, and make known to him the interpretation. 18 O king, the Most High God gave Nebuchadnezzar your [k]father a kingdom and majesty, glory and honor. 19 And because of the majesty that He gave him, all peoples, nations, and languages trembled and feared before him. Whomever he wished, he executed; whomever he wished, he kept alive; whomever he wished, he set up; and whomever he wished, he put down. 20 But when his heart was lifted up, and his spirit was hardened in pride, he was deposed from his kingly throne, and they took his glory from him. 21 Then he was driven from the sons of men, his heart was made like the beasts, and his dwelling was with the wild donkeys. They fed him with grass like oxen, and his body was wet with the dew of heaven, till he [l]knew that the Most High God rules in the kingdom of men, and appoints over it whomever He chooses.
22 “But you his son, Belshazzar, have not humbled your heart, although you knew all this. 23 And you have [m]lifted yourself up against the Lord of heaven. They have brought the vessels of [n]His house before you, and you and your lords, your wives and your concubines, have drunk wine from them. And you have praised the gods of silver and gold, bronze and iron, wood and stone, which do not see or hear or know; and the God who holds your breath in His hand and owns all your ways, you have not glorified. 24 Then the [o]fingers of the hand were sent from Him, and this writing was written.
25 “And this is the inscription that was written:
[p]MENE, MENE, [q]TEKEL, [r]UPHARSIN.
26 This is the interpretation of each word. MENE: God has numbered your kingdom, and finished it; 27 TEKEL: You have been weighed in the balances, and found wanting; 28 PERES: Your kingdom has been divided, and given to the Medes and Persians.”[s] 29 Then Belshazzar gave the command, and they clothed Daniel with purple and put a chain of gold around his neck, and made a proclamation concerning him that he should be the third ruler in the kingdom.
Big Boy Johnson
Well-Known Member
Christian Soldier
Well-Known Member
Yes I am human, so I don't bare the image of God. Just you and every other human since the begging doesn't bare the image of God.
You and I bare the image of Adam who's federal Head Was Satan. Adam was created, baring Gods image but he lost that image when Satan became his master.
Since that time, everyone was born with Adams image, who sinned and became the slave of sin and Satan. So we all inherited Adams fallen sin nature and we are all born into slavery to Satan.
It's even worse than that, since we're born into bondage to sin and Satan, we're born spiritually dead. This means that we can do precisely nothing to break free from this bondage, because Satan is far more powerful than all of making combined and our sin nature is far stronger than our will.
So we're locked into a no way out situation, and if God doesn't save us, we will remain enslaved forever. you can't chose to change your nature, and you can do nothing to change it even if you wanted to. But man loves sin so much that he would never chose to change his love in a trillion years.
Christian Soldier
Well-Known Member
That all sounds good in theory, but the awful truth is that * Verification for Gods Word is Scripture. comes down to possessing the correct interpretation of what Gods Word is actually saying.
And there in lies the problem, most of the 47,000 Denominations have their own peculiar interpretation which is radically opposed to the others, while each claims to possess the correct interpretation, just as you're doing here.
So you hold to a radically different gospel to what my Church preaches.
I'm sure you're familiar with some of those radically opposing theological views, but you come across as one who is not open to correction. That would be OK, if you possessed the correct theology but it's obvious to me that you're far from it.
Christian Soldier
Well-Known Member
I don't think the nature of the book matters. The important thing is what it represents, and the Lamb's book of life, represents those who are in Christ. Those whom God chose to save before He created the earth, so this presents a dilemma to those who hold Arminian gospel version.
If God chose everyone He purposed to save, before He created them, then it confirms the Bible doctrines of election, predestination and reprobation. I take it you reject these Bible doctrines as they don't meet your expectations.
Most professing Christians approach Bible study, with preconceived ideas and then they seek teachers to tickle their ears and tell them what they want to hear.
But a faithful follower, simply accepts everything on Gods terms and not their own.
Christian Soldier
Well-Known Member
My apologies, that figure of 47,000 Denominations is like 6 months old so the new number is now 49,000 and growing fast so best you keep checking as the number is set to go up exponentially.
In 2025, there are predicted to be approximately 49,000 Christian denominations, according to the Lausanne Movement. This number is a projection based on the continuous growth of denominations, outpacing the growth of the Christian population and congregations. The majority of these denominations are located in Asia, Africa, and Latin America, with a significant number being Pentecostal, Protestant, or Independent churches.
The Denominations need to keep inventing new Churches to accommodate all of the new types of sinful lifestyles which are evolving with the progressive christians.
The Denominations have all departed from the Church that Christ established. They didn't agree with Christs theology, so they left and made radical changes to the Church and gospel message and bible doctrines.
Nobody would have departed if they embraced the Apostolic Church model, but this would mean that they would have to conform to the pre existing Church constitution, so they decided to abandon it and invent their own "christian religions", which the Apostolic Church rejects and considers them to be illegitimate.
Again, you hold to a very strange and radically different gospel version to the one I find in the Bible. You claim that the Lord saves and rejects according to the evidence. But my Bible tells me that that's not the case at all and the truth is, the decision was made before the world was created.
Your gospel version is the man made "works based gospel" where those who do more good than evil are saved, just as Islam and many other religions teach.
My Bible tells me that, Gods people are not saved by their good works, but they are saved by grace instead.
I notice you have applied what appears to be a road map, which God is obliged to follow, in order to gain your approval for the way He does things. I could go along with your map, if it lined up with Bible doctrine, but sadly it doesn't. So while I appreciate the effort and your sincerity you put in to create this map, it just doesn't work.
Similar threads
- Poll
