state of the world..

[Chilehead]

The bible states that as it was in the days of Noah, so it will be before Christ's 2ND coming. This is where we are headed, so I would say overall things are getting worse in terms of sin being normalized.

 

[ScaliaFan]

[SIZE=medium]Point A was me feeling the smug need to correct your misunderstanding that the OT teaches the kind of proverbial fire and brimstone that you seem to want to preach. However angry its prophets could get, the authors of the OT did not have any notions of hell yet, let alone our notion of "family values".[/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]Point B – the main point - was to give this thread a positive spin by asking what you think we could do to make the world a better place. [/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]IMHO preaching fire and brimstone won’t work with guys like the frontrunner you’ve mentioned, obviously he's too busy enjoying this life to worry about the next. And of course I think that many of the policies Trump suggested will make the world worse rather than better. But in the long run the suggestions that Paul made in Romans 12 might help:[/SIZE]

you preach as u see fit i will do as i see fit

 

[junobet]

You mean to tell me that all those on forums that teach "if a person sins they are lost" are not teaching law?

If a person on a forum is preaching the law then they are indicating that they keep those laws

[SIZE=medium]Well, you may have a point here. Then again these people might also consider the possibility of being lost themselves. Who knows? [/SIZE]

They quote what was taught by Jesus and the 12 to those under the law as if it is applicatory to those that are not under the law. They teach that what James said to those under the law, "faith without works is dead" as if it is compatible with 'faith in the work of God on the cross". Only the religious want to say James and Paul taught the same things. They have to in order to keep people enslaved to their religions. they do not want people to feel free because then there would be no place for religions.

In simple words they teach that "faith plus a man' works" is the same as "faith in Jesus' work on the cross" One way is confidence of the flesh in religious works and the other is confidence in Jesus' work. They are not the same.

Phil 3:3
3 For we are the circumcision, who worship God in the Spirit, rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh,
NKJV

By the way, no one on a forum will openly say they are sinless, but they certainly indicate they are. If that is not the case then why are they teaching religious law? Why would they teach others not to sin while they are sinning too? The religious have earned their name of being hypocrites.
​

[SIZE=medium]Seemingly you find it very hard to tell the difference between Mosaic law and the “law of Christ” (Gal. 6:2; 1 Cor. 9:21), which is called the “royal law” and the “law of freedom” in the Epistle of James (James 2:8-13)? There really is no need to freak out whenever somebody entertains the notion that having faith in Christ involves doing what He wants![/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]Now, I myself am one of those who deem it quite likely that Jesus was indeed a Pharisee Himself, and that He did indeed teach to follow Mosaic law up to the smallest letter, albeit with a different spin to it (Mat 5:17-18). But if the New Testament is anything to go by, Jesus did indeed fulfill that law and all the OT’s prophecies about the Messiah. He has accomplished everything when He died on the cross sealing the New Covenant with His blood. Under this New Covenant – that you and I have already discussed - neither Peter nor Paul got unclean when they ate with Gentiles. Our salvation is not dependent on a foreskin or the lack thereof. The law Christians are called to obey is the “law of Christ”. It’s the non-legalistic law of loving God and neighbour.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]Should we obey this law out of fear for our salvation? No! I believe with Moltmann that “transforming grace is God’s punishment for sinners”. Whenever we obey, we obey because Christ works in us. “[/SIZE][SIZE=medium]For it is God who is producing in you both the desire and the ability to do what pleases him.[/SIZE][SIZE=medium]” (Phil. 2:13).[/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]So yes, while Christians are called to be perfect (Mt 5:48), we’re all often still far from it and are prone to sin whenever we lack living faith. But thanks to God’s grace there’s repentance and forgiveness, followed by the ever new resolution to go and sin no more.[/SIZE]

 

[junobet]

you preach as u see fit i will do as i see fit

Sure, we’ve each got to preach whatever we see fit. But if I were you, I’d get really concerned about Matthew 7:1-2:

“Stop judging, so that you won’t be judged, 2 because the way that you judge others will be the way that you will be judged, and you will be evaluated by the standard with which you evaluate others.“

 

[H. Richard]

[SIZE=medium]Well, you may have a point here. Then again these people might also consider the possibility of being lost themselves. Who knows? [/SIZE]


[SIZE=medium]Seemingly you find it very hard to tell the difference between Mosaic law and the “law of Christ” (Gal. 6:2; 1 Cor. 9:21), which is called the “royal law” and the “law of freedom” in the Epistle of James (James 2:8-13)? There really is no need to freak out whenever somebody entertains the notion that having faith in Christ involves doing what He wants![/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]Now, I myself am one of those who deem it quite likely that Jesus was indeed a Pharisee Himself, and that He did indeed teach to follow Mosaic law up to the smallest letter, albeit with a different spin to it (Mat 5:17-18). But if the New Testament is anything to go by, Jesus did indeed fulfill that law and all the OT’s prophecies about the Messiah. He has accomplished everything when He died on the cross sealing the New Covenant with His blood. Under this New Covenant – that you and I have already discussed - neither Peter nor Paul got unclean when they ate with Gentiles. Our salvation is not dependent on a foreskin or the lack thereof. The law Christians are called to obey is the “law of Christ”. It’s the non-legalistic law of loving God and neighbour.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]Should we obey this law out of fear for our salvation? No! I believe with Moltmann that “transforming grace is God’s punishment for sinners”. Whenever we obey, we obey because Christ works in us. “[/SIZE][SIZE=medium]For it is God who is producing in you both the desire and the ability to do what pleases him.[/SIZE][SIZE=medium]” (Phil. 2:13).[/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]So yes, while Christians are called to be perfect (Mt 5:48), we’re all often still far from it and are prone to sin whenever we lack living faith. But thanks to God’s grace there’s repentance and forgiveness, followed by the ever new resolution to go and sin no more.[/SIZE]

James 2:8-9
8 If you really fulfill the royal law according to the Scripture, "You shall love your neighbor as yourself," you do well;
9 but if you show partiality, you commit sin, and are convicted by the law as transgressors.
NKJV

The above was written to those under the Law of Moses. It is a law of Moses commandment and a person MUST keep the Law of Moses.

Gal 6:2
2 Bear one another's burdens, and so fulfill the law of Christ.
NKJV

Under grace this is not a law commandment required for salvation. If it is then no one will get to heaven. It ignores the fact that all of the sins of the world were paid for on the cross. We are not under the Law of Moses. We are dead to it.

1 Cor 9:21
21 to those who are without law, as without law (not being without law toward God, but under law toward Christ), that I might win those who are without law;
NKJV

God has chosen to save everyone that will acknowledge and put their faith, trust in the work of His Son on the cross. The law of Christ is that a person believes in His work on the cross.

But the religious want to put us under the requirements of the Law of Moses just as the Judaizers did. And just as you are doing.

 

[junobet]

James 2:8-9
8 If you really fulfill the royal law according to the Scripture, "You shall love your neighbor as yourself," you do well;
9 but if you show partiality, you commit sin, and are convicted by the law as transgressors.
NKJV

The above was written to those under the Law of Moses. It is a law of Moses commandment and a person MUST keep the Law of Moses.

[SIZE=medium] I see that in another thread Wormwood has already tried to explain this to you at great length. If you still can’t warm to the Epistle of James, let’s just do this with Paul alone:[/SIZE]
​

Gal 6:2
2 Bear one another's burdens, and so fulfill the law of Christ.
NKJV

Under grace this is not a law commandment required for salvation. If it is then no one will get to heaven. It ignores the fact that all of the sins of the world were paid for on the cross. We are not under the Law of Moses. We are dead to it.

1 Cor 9:21
21 to those who are without law, as without law (not being without law toward God, but under law toward Christ), that I might win those who are without law;
NKJV

God has chosen to save everyone that will acknowledge and put their faith, trust in the work of His Son on the cross. The law of Christ is that a person believes in His work on the cross.


​

[SIZE=medium]Paul did indeed not require Gentile Galatian and Corinthian Christians to keep Mosaic purity laws. But in Galatians 6:2 he did explicitly require that they carry each other’s burden as to fulfill the Law of Christ. Don’t confuse the two and don’t think the Law of Christ allows us to carry on sinning (Romans 6). [/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]What [/SIZE][SIZE=medium]Paul tells us is that thanks to God’s grace there’s repentance, forgiveness and a transformation of our minds ‘from Saul to Paul’. Once this transformation has taken place, we will want to take up your cross and follow Christ and His Spirit working in us will enable us to carry another’s burdens. If we are not “dead to sin” but carry on living like self-serving egotists, that’s a sure sign our faith in Christ’s work on the cross is nothing but empty words and our salvation is far from reach: [/SIZE]
[SIZE=10.5pt]“For if you live according to the sinful nature, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live, because those who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God” ([/SIZE][SIZE=10.5pt]Romans 8:13-14http://biblia.com/bible/esv/Rom 8.13-14[/SIZE][SIZE=10.5pt]).[/SIZE]


[SIZE=medium]But - as you probably remember - personally I also hope that people won’t be saved for not carrying another’s burdens just like Christ carried ours. I even hope that people whom God did not grant any faith in Christ in this life, will be saved. [/SIZE][SIZE=medium]“With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.” (Mt 19:24). [/SIZE]

​

[SIZE=medium]But the religious want to put us under the requirements of the Law of Moses just as the Judaizers did. And just as you are doing.[/SIZE]
​

​
Who are these religious people who want to put us under the requirements of the Law of Moses?
My pastors certainly aren’t among them. They frequently baptize little baby-boys with water rather than getting the knife out for a circumcision. And as far as I’m informed Jewish Orthodoxy isn’t out to make new disciples but is quite happy for gentiles not to live according to Mosaic law. Being one of these gentiles I don’t even know all their laws, so why should I want to put you under a law that I don’t follow myself?
All I am doing is pray that Christ may inform our conscience and He'll help us act accordingly.

 

[H. Richard]

[SIZE=medium] I see that in another thread Wormwood has already tried to explain this to you at great length. If you still can’t warm to the Epistle of James, let’s just do this with Paul alone:[/SIZE]
​


[SIZE=medium]Paul did indeed not require Gentile Galatian and Corinthian Christians to keep Mosaic purity laws. But in Galatians 6:2 he did explicitly require that they carry each other’s burden as to fulfill the Law of Christ. Don’t confuse the two and don’t think the Law of Christ allows us to carry on sinning (Romans 6). [/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]What [/SIZE][SIZE=medium]Paul tells us is that thanks to God’s grace there’s repentance, forgiveness and a transformation of our minds ‘from Saul to Paul’. Once this transformation has taken place, we will want to take up your cross and follow Christ and His Spirit working in us will enable us to carry another’s burdens. If we are not “dead to sin” but carry on living like self-serving egotists, that’s a sure sign our faith in Christ’s work on the cross is nothing but empty words and our salvation is far from reach: [/SIZE]
[SIZE=10.5pt]“For if you live according to the sinful nature, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live, because those who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God” ([/SIZE][SIZE=10.5pt]Romans 8:13-14http://biblia.com/bible/esv/Rom 8.13-14[/SIZE][SIZE=10.5pt]).[/SIZE]


[SIZE=medium]But - as you probably remember - personally I also hope that people won’t be saved for not carrying another’s burdens just like Christ carried ours. I even hope that people whom God did not grant any faith in Christ in this life, will be saved. [/SIZE][SIZE=medium]“With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.” (Mt 19:24). [/SIZE]

​

​
Who are these religious people who want to put us under the requirements of the Law of Moses?
My pastors certainly aren’t among them. They frequently baptize little baby-boys with water rather than getting the knife out for a circumcision. And as far as I’m informed Jewish Orthodoxy isn’t out to make new disciples but is quite happy for gentiles not to live according to Mosaic law. Being one of these gentiles I don’t even know all their laws, so why should I want to put you under a law that I don’t follow myself?
All I am doing is pray that Christ may inform our conscience and He'll help us act accordingly.

You do not see it because your mind has been blinded by Satan.

I am not against good works. But I am totally against good works as being necessary for salvation and I am sure that really upsets the religious

You don't seem to understand grace. Do you not see that Jesus' shed blood paid for """ALL""" the sins of the world? The scriptures tell us that it does. It is a free gift for those that will put their belief, faith, trust and confidence in His shed blood. If mankind is not set free of the condemnation of the Law then Jesus died for nothing. But my Bible tells me that Jesus HAS (past tense) nailed the handwriting of requirements to the cross. But the religious wish to put us back under them.
Col 2:13-15
13 And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses,
14 having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.
15 Having disarmed principalities and powers, He made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them in it.
NKJV

You can't seem to understand that you too, are a sinner that sins everyday just as everyone else does. That is why Paul wrote Romans 7.

What you want people to believe is that Jesus did not finish the work of salvation, it is up to the individual to keep the commandments and not sin in order to be saved. Paul does not say that those of faith have to keep laws in order to be saved. What he said is that the children of God will WANT to refrain from sin. But not for salvation. Jesus has already taken care of salvation.

James, and those that trust in what he wrote to the Jews under the law, are blind to the fact that they do not keep the law themselves but insist that a person has to keep them. That defies the law of grace and is not logical.

It is either faith plus works as James said OR faith plus NOTHING, or the free gift has to be worked for. You can't have it both ways. That is spiritual adultery.

According to Romans 7, since the child of God is reborn by the spirit . He/she now has two natures, one of sinful flesh and one of the spirit. What dose Romans 7 say in the last verse?

Rom 7:25
25 I thank God — through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.
NKJV

I have reconciled the above to mean that God does not save the sinful flesh but has already saved the spirit. I, long ago realized that if a person is not saved from their sinful flesh then salvation is a joke. But the scriptures say "flesh and blood will not enter heaven. Therefore, just like Paul said the children of God place no confidence in the flesh.

 

[junobet]

You do not see it because your mind has been blinded by Satan.

I am not against good works. But I am totally against good works as being necessary for salvation and I am sure that really upsets the religious

...

[SIZE=medium]I’m not that prone to blame Satan for my own failings. And I don’t blame him for your apparent lack of reading comprehension either.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]So here’s my last attempt to get through to you: our good works won’t save us, but once we have sincere faith in our salvation by grace, we will want to do good works.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]​[/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]God bless.[/SIZE]
​

 

[H. Richard]

[SIZE=medium]I’m not that prone to blame Satan for my own failings. And I don’t blame him for your apparent lack of reading comprehension either.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]So here’s my last attempt to get through to you: our good works won’t save us, but once we have sincere faith in our salvation by grace, we will want to do good works.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]​[/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]God bless.[/SIZE]
​

Thank you for your not blaming me for my reading comprehension. Nor do I blame you for yours because I know that Satan is in the world blinding mankind to the true nature of the work on the cross. I too, have said that I believe in good works. But absolutely not for salvation """or to keep salvation""".

When a person teaches law as commandments they are ignoring what Jesus did for us on the cross and are trying to get the children of God back under laws and regulations. A slap in the face of God's grace.

I will not give up my teachings of the cross and what Jesus did for us.

 

[ScaliaFan]

Yeah, that was a big turnoff. I also imagine any revelation of impropriety would be used by the left. He isn't comfortable enough with being a Christian that he would quote or paraphrase scripture to show how all have sinned and fallen short of the Glory of God.

it is utter insanity to say you have no neeed of forgiveness

corruption and lies, corruption and lies.. corruption and lies

forget it.

I am voting for someone who doesn't have such on his record

Gary Johnson.