Strange Fire - A Pentecostal Response

[Dodo_David]

1. 1 Corinthians 14:25 refers to a previously-non-believing man voluntarily making himself prostrate on the ground so as to acknowledge that the God of Christianity is the real God.

Here is an illustration of what that verse is talking about.

In contrast, the alleged "slain in the Spirit" phenomenon is something else.

The former is biblical. The latter isn't

2. As for the use of biblical tongues in a worship service ...

In his book "Charisma Versus Charismania", the late Rev. Chuck Smith describes an incident that happened during a church service that he officiated.

During the service, Smith's wife began praying to God in French. Another woman translated the prayer to God into English.

After the service, Smith was approached by a woman who was visiting the USA from France. She asked Smith why a prayer had been given in French.

The woman was astonished to learn that Smith's wife had never learned French and that the one who interpreted had never learned French either. Yet, according to the visitor from France, the prayer in French was flawless and the interpretation into English was flawless.

This French visitor was an atheist at the time of her arrival in the USA, but in response to what she witnessed during that service, she became convinced that God was real.

In my previous comments, I never said that there aren't real cases of speaking in biblical tongues. I merely pointed out that there are cases of false interpretation of tongues. According to 1 Corinthians 14, a person who speaks in biblical tongues is praying to God, as it was in the case that Chuck Smith describes in his book. Thus, a prayer to God in biblical tongues will be translated into English as a prayer to God if the translation is genuine.

3. I never said that divine healing no longer occurs.

4. My main point is that the power of the Holy Spirit is made evident with or without the showy stuff that the OP of this thread promotes.

The power of the Holy Spirit is revealed all the time in congregations where nobody is allegedly "slain in the Spirit".

The power of the Holy Spirit is revealed all the time in congregations where nobody prays in tongues during services.

The power of the Holy Spirit is revealed all the time in congregations where nobody receives divine healing during services.

As for the claim, "If you have never experienced such things ...", experiences are not the standard for determining if something is of God. The Holy Bible is the standard that we are to use to determine what is of God and what isn't of God.

Experiences are subjective. We are to judge our experiences according to Scripture, not the other way around.

I would not mind seeing divine healing take place during a worship service, but such a thing doesn't have to happen in order for the power of the Holy Spirit to be made evident in a worship service.

I would not object to someone praying to God in biblical tongues during a worship service as long at the prayer to God is translated into my language as a prayer to God, but such a thing doesn't have to happen in order for the power of the Holy Spirit to be made evident in a worship service.

I would not mind seeing a non-believer prostrating himself on the floor in response to the Gospel message, as the Apostle Paul describes in 1 Corinthians 14:25, but such a thing doesn't have to happen in order for the power of the Holy Spirit to be made evident in a worship service.

Again, this is what that verse is talking about:

 

[Mr.Bride]

'That day shall not come, unless there come a falling away first.' There is no more outpouring coming. Times have changed. We are living in a time similar to AD 69, just before the glory cloud departed and Jerusalem was laid siege.

lit. Jesus will not return until after the apostasy. When you're calling for another outpouring that means the Lord's coming would be delayed.

We'll I pray for a revival fire to burn within my heart. And you know fire spreads. I believe the Lord is up to something.

 

[Tropical Islander]

Yes thanks for the reminder to talk only after verification of assumptions. I am totally aware of that and I do have proof and verified everything before I said it. None of these things or people mentioned belong, originate, are part of, or are in any way related to the workings of The Holy Spirit.

And I do not actually believe the gifts have ceased, not at all, i've exprienced them myself. There is the real despite the counterfeit. Multiple divine healings, one near death recovery after going down to the floor just like in DD's picture here and praying to Jesus for mercy and one complete healing from a serious sickness the doctors said "will stay with me for a lifetime" are real to me. Same things happen in my family, and many prayers do get answered, even for the most "impossible to solve" problems.

However, I also had supernatural experiences before I became a Christian, and later studied their sources and how they differ from the workings of the Holy Spirit. I'm not a newbie in these matters and Jesus by His mercy called me back from going in that occult direction at a crucial time in my life where a decision had to be made. I never looked back, and I never did stay with a church that practises any of these things I was so familiar with and I now instantly get a warning sign when I suddenly know it's part of the babylonian endtimes delusion and they call it Christianity.

You need to take this command seriously:

1 John 4:1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.

Next problem of charismatics: They do NOT know how to actually do that. Ask your pastor if he knows how to do that.

 

[Angelina]

You saw all those miracles but you still deny prophets. And then you quote Ephesians "gave some to be apostles, prophets..."

John MacArthur denies prophets too. Maybe you should study his material. I bought a book from him yesterday. I think his criticisms are mostly well thought out but I'm no subscriber to either his Baptist, Calvinist, or anti-Pentecostal urges. But he's actually a great insightful commentator who anyone can benefit greatly from reading.

I never said such a thing! :huh: If someone calls themselves a prophet, they can be easily tested under the governing body of the Church. If you enter a forum such as this...and call yourself a prophet, you will be heavily moderated because you are unknown to this forum and it's members. Wisdom is vindicated by her children.

Just because Benny Hinn was a showman in his execution of the gifts - does not make his gifts false. Some believer's who move in the gifts of the Holy Spirit can lack the Godly character needed to carry such gifts without their personality getting in the way. This too needs to be crucified at the cross so that the vessels God uses are for his glory and not that of man....

Yes thanks for the reminder to talk only after verification of assumptions. I am totally aware of that and I do have proof and verified everything before I said it. None of these things or people mentioned belong, originate, are part of, or are in any way related to the workings of The Holy Spirit.

Tropical Islander...please cite your verification and tell me why your personal testimony is considered valid but others are not? By what rule do you measure this by? personal experience?

 

[Dodo_David]

1 John 4:1 is the Bible verse that I apply whenever I encounter events that others claim to be of the Holy Spirit.

For example, in light of what the Apostle Paul says in 1 Corinthians 14, I know that when a prayer to God in biblical tongues is interpreted correctly, the interpretation is also a prayer to God.

I have witnessed many incidents in which alleged interpretations were allegedly messages from God, contrary to what Paul says in 1 Corinthians 14.

Likewise with cases of people allegedly being "slain in the Spirit", and I have witnessed plenty of those cases.
As I demonstrate in my last post, 1 Corinthians 14:25 refers to something that isn't what people call "slain in the Spirit".

Here is that verse as rendered by different English versions:

HCSB: "The secrets of his heart will be revealed, and as a result he will fall face down and worship God, proclaiming, “God is really among you.”"

ESV: "the secrets of his heart are disclosed, and so, falling on his face, he will worship God and declare that God is really among you."

NASB: "the secrets of his heart are disclosed; and so he will fall on his face and worship God, declaring that God is certainly among you."

Young's Literal Translation: "and so the secrets of his heart become manifest, and so having fallen upon [his] face, he will bow before God, declaring that God really is among you."

KJV: "And thus are the secrets of his heart made manifest; and so falling down on his face he will worship God, and report that God is in you of a truth."

Now, here is a photo taken at a Benny Hinn crusade showing people who have allegedly been "slain in the Spirit".

Notice that all of the people allegedly "slain in the Spirit" are on their backs, contrary to 1 Corinthians 14:25.

Every time that have witnessed the phenomenon, all who ended up on the floor fell backwards and laid on their backs on the floor, in direct contrast to what 1 Corinthians 14:25 says.

So, when a phenomenon clearly contradicts the teachings of the Bible, I have no reason to believe that the phenomenon is the work of the Holy Spirit. However, I can believe that well-meaning people get worked up in an emotional frenzy and, thus, become vulnerable to suggestions made by whoever is doing the talking.

Thankfully, I have witnessed the power of the Holy Spirit in situations having nothing to do with the showy stuff promoted in the OP of this thread.

 

[Angelina]

...and where is your verification of the things you have witnessed? Personal testimony? Personal experience...but is your personal experience valid in the light of others who can witness the opposite of what you are trying to validate? I have witnessed people being slain in the Spirit and falling prostrate...does that make my witness valid?

Changed lives is the measuring stick that determines the move of God in individual lives through the power of the Holy Spirit not how signs and wonders are performed... :huh: You throw the baby out with the bathwater...

 

[rockytopva]

Carnal man in repentance...

Again, this is what that verse is talking about:

Spiritual man after deliverance...

 

[Dodo_David]

...and where is your verification of the things you have witnessed? Personal testimony? Personal experience...but is your personal experience valid in the light of others who can witness the opposite of what you are trying to validate? I have witnessed people being slain in the Spirit and falling prostrate...does that make my witness valid? :huh:

Just do an Internet search of images showing people who are allegedly "slain in the spirit".

Here is another one:

The images that I have shown are identical to what I witnessed, and what the images show contradicts 1 Corinthians 14:25 (ESV).

What matters is what is the standard to judge things by.

Are we interpreting our experiences according to the Bible, or are we interpreting the Bible according to our experiences?

The "slain in the spirit" phenomenon depicted in the above image contradicts 1 Corinthians 14:25 (ESV) as given in every English version other than the NIV.

Thus, I have no reason to believe that the depicted phenomenon is of the Holy Spirit.

Just as it is dangerous to claim that a work of the Holy Spirit isn't the work of the Holy Spirit, it is also dangerous to claim that a work not of the Holy Spirit is the work of the Holy Spirit. We know that we have encountered the latter because it contradicts the clear teaching of the Bible.

 

[Angelina]

You have missed the point entirely...

Just as it is dangerous to claim that a work of the Holy Spirit isn't the work of the Holy Spirit, it is also dangerous to claim that a work not of the Holy Spirit is the work of the Holy Spirit.

God will judge those who profess to be moving in the power of the Holy Spirit but are not. They may even have a the opportunity to repent...however, the bible clearly states that those who believe that the work of the Holy Spirit is actually of another Spirit...are in graver danger...

Let's take a look at how the HS was administered in the NT as an example...

Acts 2
3 Then there appeared to them divided tongues, as of fire, and one sat upon each of them. 4 And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

Acts 2:38
Then Peter said to them, “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Acts 10

The word which God sent to the children of Israel, preaching peace through Jesus Christ—He is Lord of all— 37 that word you know, which was proclaimed throughout all Judea, and began from Galilee after the baptism which John preached: 38 how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and with power, who went about doing good and healing all who were oppressed by the devil, for God was with Him. 39 And we are witnesses of all things which He did both in the land of the Jews and in Jerusalem, whom they killed by hanging on a tree. 40 Him God raised up on the third day, and showed Him openly, 41 not to all the people, but to witnesses chosen before by God, even to us who ate and drank with Him after He arose from the dead. 42 And He commanded us to preach to the people, and to testify that it is He who was ordained by God to be Judge of the living and the dead. 43 To Him all the prophets witness that, through His name, whoever believes in Him will receive remission of sins.”
44 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who heard the word. 45 And those of the circumcision who believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also. 46 For they heard them speak with tongues and magnify God.
Then Peter answered, 47 “Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?”

Acts 8
14 Now when the apostles who were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent Peter and John to them, 15 who, when they had come down, prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit. 16 For as yet He had fallen upon none of them. They had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 17 Then they laid hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit.

John 20

19 Then, the same day at evening, being the first day of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled, for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood in the midst, and said to them, “Peace be with you.” 20 When He had said this, He showed them His hands and His side. Then the disciples were glad when they saw the Lord.
21 So Jesus said to them again, “Peace to you! As the Father has sent Me, I also send you.” 22 And when He had said this, He breathed on them, and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit. 23 If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.”

Are these testimonies invalid because people received the Holy Spirit differently? The Holy Spirit cannot be put into a neat tidy little box so that people can feel secure in the idea that he only works and administers a certain way. He is not subject to the ideology of man but the will of God who sent him.

Blessings!

 

[Tropical Islander]

DD said: "Are we interpreting our experiences according to the Bible, or are we interpreting the Bible according to our experiences?"

Excellent, someone gets it.

It's a matter of final authority, that was taken from the Word by Pentecostals -- thinking of it as a "dead letter" in contrast to a living spirit that has personal, and sometimes bizarre experiences. The apostacy started with textual criticism and 'Bible correctors' at the same time - It was the time of the rise of Darwin's evolution theories, not a coincidence. The Bible was under attack from all sides, and still is.

To what we should respond with: 'It is written' - what is the only way to find the way back from of any personal deception. You can find more such "backward" falls already in Isaiah and other places where they signify a form of judgment.

There is a personal experience based 'open ended architecture' thinking of what the Holy Spirit does and not does that is not compatible with the scriptures. We have however a consistency from begining to end, no barking dogs and howling like wolves and falling unconscious for the sake of demonstration of power.

Angelina, in regard to Benny the Hinn, we go back 15 years at least, and you have to work it out by reading him, watching his videos, and then visit several discernment ministries sites that have all the proof you can accept, if you just match it against the scriptures. He is actually one of the easiest to discern, just like all of the other word-faith movement main characters. I cannot hand it to you, it's not simply transferable but takes work and maturity to discern both good and evil. Hebrews 5:14 But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.

I was thinking a bit about MacArthur, he was not actually the first to show charismatics their errors, try reading some of these articles to have another view from people that said similar things already much earlier:

"The Vineyard, the Charismatic Church, and the Cults" ---> type it into a search engine with quotes and you'll get some very interesting reading and history of these movements

"Charismaticism: fraud, lies, arrogance and deception" ---> excellent study, he knows what he's talking about, this one is from a non-American perspective, what is very refreshing for a change.

 

[Angelina]

DD said: "Are we interpreting our experiences according to the Bible, or are we interpreting the Bible according to our experiences?"

That's fine but let me ask you..how is it that you are here since on-line forums are not written in the bible? What about purchasing a car? is a car written in the bible? What about every other thing that we use every day??? are they written in the bible? No they are not but it does not mean that they cannot be used for the glory of God. The key is how lives are changed in Christ and not how signs, wonders or miracles are performed...

 

[Dodo_David]

That's fine but let me ask you..how is it that you are here since on-line forums are not written in the bible? What about purchasing a car? is a car written in the bible? What about every other thing that we use every day??? are they written in the bible? No they are not but it does not mean that they cannot be used for the glory of God. The key is how lives are changed in Christ and not how signs, wonders or miracles are performed...

There is a difference between promoting something that the Bible is silent about and promoting something that the Bible contradicts.
I am not talking about the former. I am talking about the latter.

In another thread, I state the following:
"I see no biblical justification for saying that people no longer pray to God in tongues.
I see no biblical justification for saying that prophesying no longer takes place."

Yet, according to 1 Corinthians 14, speaking in tongues + interpretation of tongues ≠ prophecy.

According to 1 Corinthians 14, a non-believer will prostrate himself on the ground/floor and worship God when " he is convicted by all, he is called to account by all, the secrets of his heart are disclosed." (ESV)

Indeed, several Spanish versions of the Bible use the word "postrándose" or the word "postrará" in 1 Corinthians 14:25 (ESV).
Those Spanish words come from the Spanish infinitive meaning "to prostrate".

Whenever experiences contradict what I read in the Bible, I am better off siding with the Bible rather than siding with the experiences.

 

[rockytopva]

Again I believe that the churches are seven...

Ephesus - Apostolic
Smyrna - Martyr
Pergamos - Orthodox... Pergos is a tower... Needed in the dark ages
Thyatira - Catholic - The spirit of Jezebel is to control and to dominate.
Sardis - Protestant - A sardius is a gem - elegant yet hard and rigid
Philadelphia - Wesleyism - To be sanctioned is to acquire it with love.
Laodicea - Materialistic - Rich and increased with goods and have need of nothing?

Which is why I believe we should have some faith forums...

1. Catholic / Orthodox
2. Sardisean - Protestant
3. Pentecostal / Methodist / Charistmatic

As this conversation has proved... There are notable differences between the Sardisean and the Phildadelphian... Namely

The Sardisean at all cost avoids what he has branded as 'emotionalism'
The Philadelphian cleaves to it

In which I cry out daily... Lord fill me with more of you!

 

[Angelina]

That is your opinion and I do not agree with you...so I will agree to disagree and move on - as a mod would

The key is how lives are changed in Christ and not how signs, wonders or miracles are performed...

Bless ya!

 

[Apocalypticist]

Again I believe that the churches are seven...

Ephesus - Apostolic
Smyrna - Martyr
Pergamos - Orthodox... Pergos is a tower... Needed in the dark ages
Thyatira - Catholic - The spirit of Jezebel is to control and to dominate.
Sardis - Protestant - A sardius is a gem - elegant yet hard and rigid
Philadelphia - Wesleyism - To be sanctioned is to acquire it with love.
Laodicea - Materialistic - Rich and increased with goods and have need of nothing?

Which is why I believe we should have some faith forums...

1. Catholic / Orthodox
2. Sardisean - Protestant
3. Pentecostal / Methodist / Charistmatic

As this conversation has proved... There are notable differences between the Sardisean and the Phildadelphian... Namely

The Sardisean at all cost avoids what he has branded as 'emotionalism'
The Philadelphian cleaves to it

In which I cry out daily... Lord fill me with more of you!

I'm very Wesleyan. But I disagree with the term 'emotionalism'. I'm somewhat of a rationalist and I don't agree that that's contrary to Christianity either like some Christians (and all rationalists) believe. Emotion has always been contrasted as opposed to logic so the way I read that statement according to the traditional definition is the Philadelphian does not believe in applying logic. But I don't think that's what you mean.

Do you have another way you could phrase it? Maybe you mean the different between 'dead' religion and 'Holy Ghost-fire religion?

 

[rockytopva]

Do you have another way you could phrase it? Maybe you mean the different between 'dead' religion and 'Holy Ghost-fire religion?

I was brought up Baptist. They call it emotionalism. I heard trbc's Charles Billingsley once say that he almost got emotional as though that is something that only happens a few times in a lifetime.

To me it is the difference of being carnal or spiritual. It is also a differance in being of hardened or pliable heart. When a man is spiritual he simply let's his light shine out. I am not talking merely of making a noise or doing an activity, but of heart felt spiritual motivation... In which, if you get the goods in your receptive heart you will at least show some joy and gladness.

 

[Apocalypticist]

I was brought up Baptist. They call it emotionalism. I heard trbc's Charles Billingsley once say that he almost got emotional as though that is something that only happens a few times in a lifetime.

To me it is the difference of being carnal or spiritual. It is also a differance in being of hardened or pliable heart. When a man is spiritual he simply let's his light shine out. I am not talking merely of making a noise or doing an activity, but of heart felt spiritual motivation... In which, if you get the goods in your receptive heart you will at least show some joy and gladness.

I think that runs the risk of stereotyping worship. Some people think of worship as 'singing praise', 'praying deeply and profoundly', that sort of thing.

But for me, worship could very simply mean sitting down for a Bible study at 6 am, having a cup of coffee, with a highlighter to highlight special passages and taking notes, coming into it with an open heart in other words.

God showed me something marvelous... that by giving up pork, I was honoring Him (you could say, worshipping Him) because at one time He told His people to give up pork and shellfish and rabbit and unclean meats. So I did that.

He showed me that smoking was not right before Him and that He let me smoke as much as He would let me by with and now to give it up. I gave it up.

Doing good works dedicated to God might be said in some sense to be "worshipping God".

I know with me, a lot of people do not understand my faith or my 'worship'. They question if I am even saved. As to emotion, I've been emotional in church probably more often than not. I was really deeply touched by the worship last Sunday at a new church I attended. Something like two angels were leading worship, two girls, teenagers, and had the voices of angels. I wish they could retain that state but they always find time to settle down. Virginity is a beautiful thing.

The LORD has called me out of churches, even as recently as last month, just to get up and leave.

Now that I think about it, I think I do understand what you mean and I really identify with that.

EDIT: I'd also add, exposing false prophets is worship.

 

[IanLC]

I believe in Jesus the Christ! I'm saved by Jesus, sanctified by the Word of Jesus and filled with the Spirit of Jesus!

I do believe in the baptism of the Holy Ghost as recorded throughout the book of Acts with the evidence of speaking in tongues. I do believe that the gifts of the Holy Spirit are still in operation today. I do dance, shout, if led by the Spirit fall out and rejoice in the joy of the Holy Ghost much coming from my experience in the African American Pentecostal Holiness tradition.

Is there strange fire within the movement? Yes and many are not Holy Ghost led but emotional and fleshly and some even demonic! Yet that is a minority and not the majority of the movement. I would rather be in a place where people experience Jesus ( mind, body, emotions and spirit) then where they just think on Jesus. There is much to He the Holy Spirit and if we avail ourselves to Him He will lead into all truth!

I've seen peoples lives saved, sanctified and changed through the power of the Spirit of Christ! Jesus is here and ready to meet your every need! Starting a whole conference to combat and condemn believers is mere foolishness and not of Christ nor of the Holy Ghost!

 

[rockytopva]

I believe in Jesus the Christ! I'm saved by Jesus, sanctified by the Word of Jesus and filled with the Spirit of Jesus!

I do believe in the baptism of the Holy Ghost as recorded throughout the book of Acts with the evidence of speaking in tongues. I do believe that the gifts of the Holy Spirit are still in operation today. I do dance, shout, if led by the Spirit fall out and rejoice in the joy of the Holy Ghost much coming from my experience in the African American Pentecostal Holiness tradition.

Is there strange fire within the movement? Yes and many are not Holy Ghost led but emotional and fleshly and some even demonic! Yet that is a minority and not the majority of the movement. I would rather be in a place where people experience Jesus ( mind, body, emotions and spirit) then where they just think on Jesus. There is much to He the Holy Spirit and if we avail ourselves to Him He will lead into all truth!

I've seen peoples lives saved, sanctified and changed through the power of the Spirit of Christ! Jesus is here and ready to meet your every need! Starting a whole conference to combat and condemn believers is mere foolishness and not of Christ nor of the Holy Ghost!

Welcome back UHCAlan... I agree... And have missed your posting.

 

[Poppin]

i am a cessationist.
the disciples, His chosen were sent to Jerusalem to wait for the Power from on High. that of course was pentecost.
that is recorded for us as an historical narrative, and everything that happened was very real.
their gifts and God's miraculous activity at that time was for the founding of the church and laying the foundation upon which we all as lively stones are built. no one can lay any other foundation but that which has been laid.
cessationists believe the gifts of prophecy and languages ceased, generally speaking, at the end of the apostolic age.
the gift of tongues was the miraculous ability to speak and translate into languages of the nations, the Good News they received in real time - direct revelation of our New Testament doctrines....our scriptures. all complete. nothing lacking for the salvation of the soul and for every good work.

2 Timothy 3
16All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; 17so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work.