Strange Fire - A Pentecostal Response

[Angelina]

Does that mean that you do not believe that the Holy Spirit who dwells in all born-again believers - is not active in our lives today? :huh:

 

[Poppin]

oh no Angelina! not at all. cessationists know The Holy Spirit is active in all of us every moment. transforming us and teaching us. conforming us to the image of Jesus. cessationism is just a position concerning the miraculous gifts and activity recorded in Acts. the languages and the miraculous powers the apostles had and so on. they performed miracles, just as Jesus said they would - signs, that confirmed they were authorized by Him to proclaim His messages. the signs confirmed their authority. apostles had to have seen the resurrected Christ. He said they would be witnesses that He was raised from the dead. AMEN!

Luke 1
1Inasmuch as many have undertaken to compile a narrative of the things that have been accomplished among us, 2just as those who from the beginning were eyewitnesses and ministers of the word have delivered them to us, 3it seemed good to me also, having followed all things closely for some time past, to write an orderly account for you, most excellent Theophilus, 4that you may have certainty concerning the things you have been taught.

 

[Angelina]

The same Spirit that raised Jesus from the dead who also dwells in us and gives life to our mortal bodies - is not active? Romans 8:11. Salvation is also a gift and so is righteousness, the Holy Spirit and eternal life.

oh no Angelina! not at all. cessationists know The Holy Spirit is active in all of us every moment. transforming us and teaching us. conforming us to the image of Jesus. cessationism is just a position concerning the miraculous gifts and activity recorded in Acts. the languages and the miraculous powers the apostles had and so on. they performed miracles, just as Jesus said they would - signs, that confirmed they were authorized by Him to proclaim His messages. the signs confirmed their authority.

Oh okay but I have witnessed and have had many personal encounters including my own personal testimony which could only be described as a miracle within itself. Please tell me why you believe that the gifts of the Spirit recorded in the days of Acts have ceased?

 

[aspen]

I am not comfortable in Pentecostal services because I feel like everyone has a lot expectation of worship style from me, but that doesn't mean that it is wrong - it just means I am not comfortable, I think the same is true with Rick Warren, Willow Creek, Saddleback church models. The fact is Rick Warren has brought Christ to millions of people - he is a totally different than Copeland, who was basically a Christian Circus Carnie.

 

[Poppin]

The same Spirit that raised Jesus from the dead who also dwells in us and gives life to our mortal bodies - is not active? Romans 8:11. Salvation is also a gift and so is righteousness, the Holy Spirit and eternal life.

Oh okay but I have witnessed and have had many personal encounters including my own personal testimony which could only be described as a miracle within itself. Please tell me why you believe that the gifts of the Spirit recorded in the days of Acts have ceased?

hi Angelina.
I was going to address this, as Biblically as i could. But in a thread in eschatology i have been hurt. i have been accused of being someone else, who signed up here under a new name. this is upsetting. I havenever been here before, i did not know this forum even existed. I was very excited to discuss the christian faith, and i'm very aware that christians have widely varying beliefs on many matters. i did not think this would cause trouble! i thought it was part of being involved in christian discussions.
now i am worried about second-guessing what i might say. i suppose i will take some time away again to think about it.
Angelina, if i say that, in general terms, my beliefs are:

Monergist
Cessationist
Amillennial
Christo-Centric
One Covenant

does this mean my beliefs are so far different that I am not welcome here?
I ask because of the other thread. I don;t want to start to feel at home and discover my beliefs or discussing them will cause problems or be offensive to anyone. I don't believe I have been rude. Though I might have been. i don't know. i will take some time and read what i have written and pray about it.

i would, maybe one day like to discuss the cessationist position with you, just so you can understand it better. but this wouldn't ever be a "fight" or anything like that for me. i don't want to fight. i wanted to fellowship and discuss our faith.

God Bless and keep you,
Poppin.

 

[Dodo_David]

I do not know how it is in other nations, but in the USA, plenty of false teachings on the part of charismatics have fueled cessationist thinking.

First, popular charismatic teachers keep claiming that every Christian should speak in tongues, which contradicts what the Apostle Paul says in 1 Corinthians 12.

Second, popular charismatic teachers keep claiming that "speaking in tongues" + "interpretation of tongues" = "prophecy", which contradicts what the Apostle Paul says in 1 Corinthians 14. All too often, alleged "interpretation of tongues" are interpreted as alleged "messages from God", contrary to what Paul wrote.

Third, popular charismatic teachers refuse to acknowledge that biblical tongues are known human languages, as revealed in Acts 2.
To avoid acknowledging this fact, they will cite the KJV's mistranslation of 1 Corinthians 14:2.
In the Greek manuscripts, the word "unknown" isn't in 1 Corinthians 14:2.

Fourth, too many charismatics insist that God promises to provide Christians with the healing of all physical ailments.
They constantly misinterpret Isaiah 53:5, which talks about spiritual healing.

Can the Holy Spirit still give the gift of tongues to whomever He wants? Yes, He can.
Can the Holy Spirit still give the gift of interpretation of tongues to whomever He wants? Yes, He can.
Can the Holy Spirit still provide the gift of healing to whomever He wants? Yes, He can.

At the same time, certain gifts have been counterfeited.

Acknowledge the existence of the counterfeit if you want others to acknowledge the existence of the genuine.

 

[Poppin]

Dodo_David, as a cessationist from the beginning (just from a simple reading of the texts in their Historical context), i say amen to your post, and especially to this part:

Can the Holy Spirit still give the gift of tongues to whomever He wants? Yes, He can.
Can the Holy Spirit still give the gift of interpretation of tongues to whomever He wants? Yes, He can.
Can the Holy Spirit still provide the gift of healing to whomever He wants? Yes, He can.`

the question for the cessationist (and the continuationist as well) might be: but did He ever say it was His plan to continue to do so :)
it is wonderful that you realize that tongues were real human languages. those were very real MIRACLES.
i have done a study on miracles (Biblical; as performed by God or His representatives, prophets and apostles...we could look at it some time if you are interested).

Jesus Christ is King and Lord, may He lift you up and bless you and keep you.
in His love, always,
Poppin

The same Spirit that raised Jesus from the dead who also dwells in us and gives life to our mortal bodies - is not active? Romans 8:11. Salvation is also a gift and so is righteousness, the Holy Spirit and eternal life.


Oh okay but I have witnessed and have had many personal encounters including my own personal testimony which could only be described as a miracle within itself. Please tell me why you believe that the gifts of the Spirit recorded in the days of Acts have ceased?

Hi Angelina. i too have had supernatural encounters. and my own testimony is a true miracle. every time a blind rebellious sinner is brought to repentant faith and salvation and transferred from the dominion of sin and satan into the Kingdom of God`s Dear Son - THIS IS A MIRACLE!
Hallelujah!
but God`s workings in our lives, in His providence, which we know He certainly does do - working all things for our good is not exactly related to the power from on High the disciples received - whereby they were able to raise from the dead; heal the sick and so on....their miracles were for the buttressing of their message. for example, look closely at this amazing encounter (involving a real miracle):

Acts 13
Barnabas and Saul on Cyprus
4So, being sent out by the Holy Spirit, they went down to Seleucia, and from there they sailed to Cyprus. 5When they arrived at Salamis, they proclaimed the word of God in the synagogues of the Jews. And they had John to assist them. 6When they had gone through the whole island as far as Paphos, they came upon a certain magician, a Jewish false prophet named Bar-Jesus. 7He was with the proconsul, Sergius Paulus, a man of intelligence, who summoned Barnabas and Saul and sought to hear the word of God. 8But Elymas the magician (for that is the meaning of his name) opposed them, seeking to turn the proconsul away from the faith. 9But Saul, who was also called Paul, filled with the Holy Spirit, looked intently at him 10and said, “You son of the devil, you enemy of all righteousness, full of all deceit and villainy, will you not stop making crooked the straight paths of the Lord? 11And now, behold, the hand of the Lord is upon you, and you will be blind and unable to see the sun for a time.” Immediately mist and darkness fell upon him, and he went about seeking people to lead him by the hand. 12Then the proconsul believed, when he saw what had occurred, for he was astonished at the teaching of the Lord.

See that! he saw the miracle, and yes he believed, but what was it he was astonished by - the teaching of the Lord!

God certainly can perform miracles today - i am certain He does many times every day. But concerning the gifts of Corinth and Acts, this is another matter. those gifts i believed ceased, as Paul said they would, when that which was complete (teleios) had come - all the New Testament Revelation of God`s will and Plan was delivered once for all, and we do not need signs or miracles to believe.

 

[Dodo_David]

... we do not need signs or miracles to believe.

Poppin, you make an excellent point.

God's grace is sufficient for us, and, thus we don't need to see signs and wonders in order to have a deep faith.
God's written Word is sufficient for us, and, thus, we don't need any alleged "prophecies".

 

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, brothers and sisters.

I, like rockytopva, was brought up a conservative, independent baptist and, like Poppin, was mostly a cessationist. First, I too believed (and still do) that we do not need signs or miracles to believe.

HOWEVER, I've seen God working through Messianic Judaism and have learned a few things since then:

First, it's important to note that it is NOT a good thing to be "baptized with fire!"

Matthew 3:5-12
5 Then went out to him (John the Baptist) Jerusalem, and all Judaea, and all the region round about Jordan,
6 And were baptized of him in Jordan, confessing their sins.
7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
8 Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance:
9 And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.
10 And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:
12 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.
KJV

Luke 3:16-17
16 John answered, saying unto them all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire:
17 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and will gather the wheat into his garner; but the chaff he will burn with fire unquenchable.
KJV

It is somewhat unfortunate that we have lost the meaning of "thee," "thou," "ye," and "you," and their possessive forms, "thy," "thine," "your" and "yours," because in so losing this info, we have also lost the nuances of what is being said here. When Yochanan (John) said, "he shall baptize YOU," he was talking to them collectively. "Thee" and "thou" and "thy" and "thine" are SINGULAR while "you" and "ye" and "your" and "yours" are PLURAL in the "King's English." Also, "thou" and "ye" are subjective forms while "thee" and "you" are objective forms. Today, we just use "you," "your" and "yours" for both singular and plural, and this confuses people.

Notice that John was "saying unto them ALL" when he used the word "you" in the phrase "he shall baptize you." This is a PLURAL word referring both to the repentant and the non-repentant present there that day.

Furthermore, the Greek word "kai" which is typically translated as "and" does not always mean "and." Sometimes, the context may suggest that we translate it as "but," and sometimes it is translated as "also." I believe, based on the context of these two passages, that the word should have been given a slightly different translation in some respect because one should be able to pick up on the fact that he was saying that some of them would be baptized with the Holy Spirit (a good thing) and some of them would be baptized with FIRE (a BAD thing)!

I've heard a song that we used to sing in church: Set My Soul On Fire, Lord! I chuckle every time I hear someone sing it. I never say it out loud, of course, but my thought is always, "If He actually did, we'd be screaming, 'AAAHH! Put it OUT! Put it OUT!!!'"

Second, WHY were the gifts of the Spirit given in the first place? In the Gospels, Yeshua` (Jesus) was offering the Kingdom to His tribe, Y'hudah. He was born the "King of the Jews." To that end He was born, but they rejected His offer of the Kingdom, and it was postponed to a generation who would accept Him as they should have. Just the same, while He was sending out His twelve emissaries and then later the seventy, He gave them power to heal the sick and cast out demons. These miracles were given to the disciples to authenticate the heralds' message! Yeshua` was coming right on their heels, and they were to go through the various towns and villages of Isra'el to let the people know that the Messiah was coming to THEIR town! To prove they were who they claimed to be, they were given God's power to do these things to PUNCTUATE the message! Almost everywhere one finds the "gospel of the kingdom," one will also find the miracles.

Matthew 4:23-25
23 And Jesus went about all Galilee, teaching in their synagogues, and preaching (Greek: keerussoon = heralding) the gospel of the kingdom, and healing all manner of sickness and all manner of disease among the people.
24 And his fame went throughout all Syria: and they brought unto him all sick people that were taken with divers diseases and torments, and those which were possessed with devils, and those which were lunatick, and those that had the palsy; and he healed them.
25 And there followed him great multitudes of people from Galilee, and from Decapolis, and from Jerusalem, and from Judaea, and from beyond Jordan.
KJV

Matthew 9:35-36
35 And Jesus went about all the cities and villages, teaching in their synagogues, and preaching the gospel of the kingdom, and healing every sickness and every disease among the people.
36 But when he saw the multitudes, he was moved with compassion on them, because they fainted, and were scattered abroad, as sheep having no shepherd.
KJV

Luke 4:16-21
16 And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up: and, as his custom was, he went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and stood up for to read.
17 And there was delivered unto him the book of the prophet Esaias. And when he had opened the book, he found the place where it was written,
18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,
19 To preach the acceptable year of the Lord.
20 And he closed the book, and he gave it again to the minister, and sat down. And the eyes of all them that were in the synagogue were fastened on him.
21 And he began to say unto them, This day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears.
KJV

Luke 7:19-23
19 And John calling unto him two of his disciples sent them to Jesus, saying, Art thou he that should come? or look we for another?
20 When the men were come unto him, they said, John Baptist hath sent us unto thee, saying, Art thou he that should come? or look we for another?
21 And in that same hour he cured many of their infirmities and plagues, and of evil spirits; and unto many that were blind he gave sight.
22 Then Jesus answering said unto them, Go your way, and tell John what things ye have seen and heard; how that the blind see, the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed, the deaf hear, the dead are raised, to the poor the gospel is preached.
23 And blessed is he, whosoever shall not be offended in me.
KJV

And, these are just a few examples! When the disciples left a town who would not accept their message, they were to shake the dust off their feet as a sign against them. But, a sign for WHOM?! It was a sign at the gate of that town for the Messiah Yeshua` to bypass that town and move on to the next one!

Now, after His death, resurrection and ascension, did the message change? No, it didn't. They were to be preaching the SAME GOSPEL - the SAME GOOD NEWS - the SAME GOOD TIDINGS - as Yochanan and Yeshua` heralded:

Isaiah 52:7
7 How beautiful upon the mountains are the feet of him that bringeth good tidings, that publisheth peace; that bringeth good tidings of good, that publisheth salvation (rescue; deliverance); that saith unto Zion, THY GOD REIGNETH!
KJV

THAT'S the "gospel," particularly the "gospel of the Kingdom" - the "good news about the Kingdom!"

Listen to Yeshua`s prophecy in the Olivet Discourse:

Matthew 24:14
14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached (heralded) in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
KJV

Mark 13:9-11
9 But take heed to yourselves: for they shall deliver you up to councils; and in the synagogues ye shall be beaten: and ye shall be brought before rulers and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them.
10 And the gospel must first be published among all nations.
11 But when they shall lead you, and deliver you up, take no thought beforehand what ye shall speak, neither do ye premeditate: but whatsoever shall be given you in that hour, that speak ye: for it is not ye that speak, but the Holy Ghost.
KJV

THIS is the "gospel" that they will herald among all nations! It's the good news about the KINGDOM! The good news that GOD IS GOING TO REIGN AS KING! And, this will be accomplished through His Messiah, Yeshua`, the Son of God!

Lastly, we are given some additional information in the following:

1 Corinthians 1:20-25
20 Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?
21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.
22 For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:
23 But we preach Christ (the Messiah) crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;
24 But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.
25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.
KJV

Therefore, Greeks (non-Jews) value wisdom, but Jews value SIGNS! I've been learning that the signs - the miracles - the gifts of the Ruach haQodesh (the Holy Spirit) - are more for the JEWS than for the Gentiles! Try to argue with a knowledgeable Jew, and you are going to be outclassed. They ENJOY arguing the fine points of the Tanakh (the Old Testament, their Bible) on their Shabbats! They are not impressed by your arguments. Many of them, as good debaters, could argue circles around you. But, if a MIRACLE happens, they sit up and take notice!

So, I leave you with a thought: If one would like to see more miracles performed, one should be heralding the GOSPEL OF THE KINGDOM - the GOOD NEWS ABOUT THE FUTURE KINGDOM! Think about it: Why would God authenticate a message He didn't give? If we're not heralding the soon return of the Messiah and His establishment of a Kingdom, first in Isra'el and then growing to fill the whole earth, why should He give us ANY support?

 

[Angelina]

I do not know how it is in other nations, but in the USA, plenty of false teachings on the part of charismatics have fueled cessationist thinking.

First, popular charismatic teachers keep claiming that every Christian should speak in tongues, which contradicts what the Apostle Paul says in 1 Corinthians 12.

I for one, do not believe that one must speak in tongues as evidence of the Holy Spirits presence and this is what is being insinuated here. The initial gift was made manifest through the Holy Spirit for the benefit of those who were present and many who heard were unbelievers. This was a sign for them as they heard men speak in their own language, the mighty deeds of God. Acts 2:11, 1 Corinthians 14:22

Second, popular charismatic teachers keep claiming that "speaking in tongues" + "interpretation of tongues" = "prophecy", which contradicts what the Apostle Paul says in 1 Corinthians 14. All too often, alleged "interpretation of tongues" are interpreted as alleged "messages from God", contrary to what Paul wrote.

I have never heard that before...so I am unable to comment

Third, popular charismatic teachers refuse to acknowledge that biblical tongues are known human languages, as revealed in Acts 2.

To avoid acknowledging this fact, they will cite the KJV's mistranslation of 1 Corinthians 14:2.

In the Greek manuscripts, the word "unknown" isn't in 1 Corinthians 14:2.

The word "unknown is also not cited in other popular bibles either but that does not take away what is clearly being said, which is; that one who speaks in a tongue is speaking to God not man because no-one understands him. He utters mysteries in the Spirit. Please note: this type of tongue is not the same as the tongues spoken of in 1 Corinthians 12. There is a variety of tongues and not just human language tongues. 1 Corinthians 13.

Fourth, too many charismatics insist that God promises to provide Christians with the healing of all physical ailments.

They constantly misinterpret Isaiah 53:5, which talks about spiritual healing.

I come from a Pentecostal Church that emphasises healing as part of the ministry of the Holy Spirit work in individual believer's. It is the Holy Spirit that heals according to the will of God. I have witnessed many people healing in our services including myself on many occasions.

Can the Holy Spirit still give the gift of tongues to whomever He wants? Yes, He can.

Can the Holy Spirit still give the gift of interpretation of tongues to whomever He wants? Yes, He can.

Can the Holy Spirit still provide the gift of healing to whomever He wants? Yes, He can.

Agreed...

At the same time, certain gifts have been counterfeited.
Acknowledge the existence of the counterfeit if you want others to acknowledge the existence of the genuine.

Of course gifts can be counterfeited. God word warns that Satan disguises himself as an angel of light. 2 Corinthians 11. There are also false prophets, false teachers, false apostles and the list goes on...but that does not mean that we have to throw the baby out with the bath water. God has given us the Holy Spirit and the word of God to help us define the truth from the lie. The bible tells us to test the spirits to see whether they are of God. He also tells us through his word that you will know them by their fruit, he gives believer's the gift of discernment of wisdom, knowledge and understanding... and so much more that he teaches us so that we are not easily deceived. He did not leave us to blindly try to work things out on our own. He has given us his word and the Holy Spirit....

Shalom!

 

[Poppin]

Hello Retrobyter! i agree that we should NOT be calling for Fire! Fire! that is judgment.

But i do not believe the Kingdom was postponed. there is a belief system called postponement theology, which says because some of the jewish people rejected Jesus the kingdom was postponed.
I am amillennial, i do not believe there is a future 1,000 year temporary rule after The Return and Judgment.
Jesus is reigning and ruling now. His kingdom is eternal already.
The call to enter in is through the Gospel, and it is today.
Jesus is enthroned, on God's Holy Mountain Zion, which is the same heavenly Zion of Hebrews.

Psalm 2
The Reign of the LORD’s Anointed
1 Why do the nations ragea
and the peoples plot in vain?
2 The kings of the earth set themselves,
and the rulers take counsel together,
against the LORD and against his Anointed, saying,
3 “Let us burst their bonds apart
and cast away their cords from us.”

4 He who sits in the heavens laughs;
the Lord holds them in derision.
5 Then he will speak to them in his wrath,
and terrify them in his fury, saying,
6 “As for me, I have set my King
on Zion, my holy hill.”
7 I will tell of the decree:
The LORD said to me, “You are my Son;
today I have begotten you.
8 Ask of me, and I will make the nations your heritage,
and the ends of the earth your possession.
9 You shall breakb them with a rod of iron
and dash them in pieces like a potter’s vessel.”

10 Now therefore, O kings, be wise;
be warned, O rulers of the earth.
11 Serve the LORD with fear,
and rejoice with trembling.
12 Kiss the Son,
lest he be angry, and you perish in the way,
for his wrath is quickly kindled.
Blessed are all who take refuge in him.


wee see in Acts 4 the fulfillment of Psalm 2

Acts 4
The Believers Pray for Boldness
23When they were released, they went to their friends and reported what the chief priests and the elders had said to them. 24And when they heard it, they lifted their voices together to God and said, “Sovereign Lord, who made the heaven and the earth and the sea and everything in them, 25who through the mouth of our father David, your servant,c said by the Holy Spirit,

“‘Why did the Gentiles rage,
and the peoples plot in vain?
26 The kings of the earth set themselves,
and the rulers were gathered together,
against the Lord and against his Anointed’d—

27for truly in this city there were gathered together against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, 28to do whatever your hand and your plan had predestined to take place. 29And now, Lord, look upon their threats and grant to your servantse to continue to speak your word with all boldness, 30while you stretch out your hand to heal, and signs and wonders are performed through the name of your holy servant Jesus.” 31And when they had prayed, the place in which they were gathered together was shaken, and they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and continued to speak the word of God with boldness.


i believe this:

"for truly in this city there were gathered together against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel (Why did the Gentiles rage, and the peoples plot in vain? The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers were gathered together)"

is referring to this, from Daniel (the Romans and Herod and Pilate along with the wicked rulers of Jerusalem and the ignorant people, were gathered together/mixing together in marriage (Herods) against the Anointed One who was cut off (Daniel 9) but to no avail for them. He is King, in Heavenly Zion):

Daniel 2
40And there shall be a fourth kingdom, strong as iron, because iron breaks to pieces and shatters all things. And like iron that crushes, it shall break and crush all these. 41And as you saw the feet and toes, partly of potter’s clay and partly of iron, it shall be a divided kingdom, but some of the firmness of iron shall be in it, just as you saw iron mixed with the soft clay. 42And as the toes of the feet were partly iron and partly clay, so the kingdom shall be partly strong and partly brittle. 43As you saw the iron mixed with soft clay, so they will mix with one another in marriage,c but they will not hold together, just as iron does not mix with clay. 44And in the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that shall never be destroyed, nor shall the kingdom be left to another people.


Psalm 2
6 “As for me, I have set my King
on Zion, my holy hill.”
7 I will tell of the decree:
The LORD said to me, “You are my Son;
today I have begotten you.
8 Ask of me, and I will make the nations your heritage,
and the ends of the earth your possession.
9 You shall breakb them with a rod of iron
and dash them in pieces like a potter’s vessel.”

and it happened just that way, in the days of those kings (Acts 4). The Lord raised up Jesus to the Highest place at His Right Hand where He has all authority in heaven and on earth. He is King now!
the stone broke them in pieces and is filling the whole earth becoming a great mountain!
No Postponement.
Hallelujah
Hallelujah
Amen

 

[Dodo_David]

I (in my Human guise, of course) grew up in Tulsa County, which is the Mecca of the Charismatic Movement in the USA.

Having resided in Tulsa County for most of my life (as a Melmacian in Human guise, of course), I have witnessed the Charismatic teachings that I describe in my previous post in this thread.

Yes, in the USA, Charismatics (and some Pentecostals) are taught by their leaders that a Christian doesn't have the baptism of the Holy Spirit if that Christian doesn't speak in tongues. This teaching contradicts 1 Corinthians 12.

Yes, in the USA, Charismatics (and some Pentecostals) are taught by their leaders that "speaking in tongues" + "interpretation of tongues" = "prophecy". This teaching contradicts 1 Corinthians 14.

Yes, in the USA, Charismatics (and some Pentecostals) are taught by their leaders that Isaiah 53:5 promises physical healing for all Christians, when that verse talks about spiritual healing instead.

* * *

Now, getting back to this thread's original post, it implies that Christians must see signs and wonders in their congregations in order for their faith in the Messiah to improve.

I don't know about anyone else, but my faith in the Messiah does not depend on me seeing a show during a worship service.

 

[Angelina]

We are talking about the O/P which is Strange Fire - A Pentecostal Response. :)
Rocky commented that the real issue is lack of fire rather than strange fire. I think that those who have not been a part of a Pentecostal Church are concentrating more on what the Church would consider as normal rather than strange, prophecy, tongues and interpretation of tongues, deliverance, healing etc - all or some of these gifts of the Holy Spirit can be found functioning in most Pentecostal churches today and considered normal.

Hi Angelina. i too have had supernatural encounters. and my own testimony is a true miracle. every time a blind rebellious sinner is brought to repentant faith and salvation and transferred from the dominion of sin and satan into the Kingdom of God`s Dear Son - THIS IS A MIRACLE!
Hallelujah!
but God`s workings in our lives, in His providence, which we know He certainly does do - working all things for our good is not exactly related to the power from on High the disciples received - whereby they were able to raise from the dead; heal the sick and so on....their miracles were for the buttressing of their message. for example, look closely at this amazing encounter (involving a real miracle):

Hey Poppin,
Here are some of the "REAL" miracles that I have already posted here at CyB. This is only a portion of the miracles I have not only witnessed but have also experienced...
http://www.christianityboard.com/topic/15724-i-believe-in-miracles/

My testimony is also posted here on this forum...post 2
http://www.christianityboard.com/topic/13640-why-do-you-love-god/?hl=%2Bmiss+%2Bhepburn

I have been a Christian for many years now and born-again for 20 of it, this year. God has blessed me mightily in many areas of ministry including; Youth outreaches, preaching, teaching, evangelism, overseas missions, deliverance, worship, prayer/warfare ministry for the church and visiting speakers/ministries. I have not been idle with Gods word and have led approx 800 believer's to the cross that leads to salvation in personal ministry - that is to friends, family and neighbors which does not include ministries associated through the Church.

God certainly can perform miracles today - i am certain He does many times every day. But concerning the gifts of Corinth and Acts, this is another matter. those gifts i believed ceased, as Paul said they would, when that which was complete (teleios) had come - all the New Testament Revelation of God`s will and Plan was delivered once for all, and we do not need signs or miracles to believe.

He certainly can and does perform miracles today, I agree and would really like you to point out the scripture that states "God has ceased using the gifts of tongues, interpretation of tongues and other gifts?" Please give the chapter and verse :)

Thank you and Be Blessed!

 

[Poppin]

SPIRITUAL GIFTS: DEFINITIONS AND KINDS
James F. Stitzinger
Associate Professor of Historical Theology

this covers the whole issue, from my perspective, using scripture to do so.
it can be found online free as a pdf.
i have many other resources, which all use scripture for the case of cessationism.

 

[Angelina]

I do not look at theologies from people I have never heard of but I will look at anyone here's theology relating to it if they are willing to post it here @CyB. [...or better still, create another thread so that this one does not go off topic] Please include chapter and verse :)

Bless you!

 

[Poppin]

okay Angelina, you are right this for the Pentecostal's response to The Strange Fire Conference. i did watch it, and i do have differing views. when i have time i will make a thread, using scipture, concerning why i believe the cessationist view to be Scriptural. Thank you for your kindness.
God bless you in your life today and each day,
in Christ
Poppin :)

 

[horsecamp]

The biggest problem in the contemporary charismatic Pentecostal church of America is certainly not “strange fire

I would say the biggest problem its how to spell all that

 

[Dodo_David]

Counterfeit spiritual gifts run a muck in congregations because members of those congregations won't examine them in the light of Scripture, especially when the preacher is supporting the counterfeit. Group-think sets in, and nobody dares to question what is happening. Sadly, I have witnessed plenty of this.

 

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, Poppin.

Hello Retrobyter! i agree that we should NOT be calling for Fire! Fire! that is judgment.

But i do not believe the Kingdom was postponed. there is a belief system called postponement theology, which says because some of the jewish people rejected Jesus the kingdom was postponed.
I am amillennial, i do not believe there is a future 1,000 year temporary rule after The Return and Judgment.
Jesus is reigning and ruling now. His kingdom is eternal already.
The call to enter in is through the Gospel, and it is today.
Jesus is enthroned, on God's Holy Mountain Zion, which is the same heavenly Zion of Hebrews.

Psalm 2
The Reign of the LORD’s Anointed
1 Why do the nations ragea
and the peoples plot in vain?
2 The kings of the earth set themselves,
and the rulers take counsel together,
against the LORD and against his Anointed, saying,
3 “Let us burst their bonds apart
and cast away their cords from us.”

4 He who sits in the heavens laughs;
the Lord holds them in derision.
5 Then he will speak to them in his wrath,
and terrify them in his fury, saying,
6 “As for me, I have set my King
on Zion, my holy hill.”
7 I will tell of the decree:
The LORD said to me, “You are my Son;
today I have begotten you.
8 Ask of me, and I will make the nations your heritage,
and the ends of the earth your possession.
9 You shall breakb them with a rod of iron
and dash them in pieces like a potter’s vessel.”

10 Now therefore, O kings, be wise;
be warned, O rulers of the earth.
11 Serve the LORD with fear,
and rejoice with trembling.
12 Kiss the Son,
lest he be angry, and you perish in the way,
for his wrath is quickly kindled.
Blessed are all who take refuge in him.


wee see in Acts 4 the fulfillment of Psalm 2

Acts 4
The Believers Pray for Boldness
23When they were released, they went to their friends and reported what the chief priests and the elders had said to them. 24And when they heard it, they lifted their voices together to God and said, “Sovereign Lord, who made the heaven and the earth and the sea and everything in them, 25who through the mouth of our father David, your servant,c said by the Holy Spirit,

“‘Why did the Gentiles rage,
and the peoples plot in vain?
26 The kings of the earth set themselves,
and the rulers were gathered together,
against the Lord and against his Anointed’d—

27for truly in this city there were gathered together against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, 28to do whatever your hand and your plan had predestined to take place. 29And now, Lord, look upon their threats and grant to your servantse to continue to speak your word with all boldness, 30while you stretch out your hand to heal, and signs and wonders are performed through the name of your holy servant Jesus.” 31And when they had prayed, the place in which they were gathered together was shaken, and they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and continued to speak the word of God with boldness.


i believe this:

"for truly in this city there were gathered together against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel (Why did the Gentiles rage, and the peoples plot in vain? The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers were gathered together)"

is referring to this, from Daniel (the Romans and Herod and Pilate along with the wicked rulers of Jerusalem and the ignorant people, were gathered together/mixing together in marriage (Herods) against the Anointed One who was cut off (Daniel 9) but to no avail for them. He is King, in Heavenly Zion):

Daniel 2
40And there shall be a fourth kingdom, strong as iron, because iron breaks to pieces and shatters all things. And like iron that crushes, it shall break and crush all these. 41And as you saw the feet and toes, partly of potter’s clay and partly of iron, it shall be a divided kingdom, but some of the firmness of iron shall be in it, just as you saw iron mixed with the soft clay. 42And as the toes of the feet were partly iron and partly clay, so the kingdom shall be partly strong and partly brittle. 43As you saw the iron mixed with soft clay, so they will mix with one another in marriage,c but they will not hold together, just as iron does not mix with clay. 44And in the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that shall never be destroyed, nor shall the kingdom be left to another people.


Psalm 2
6 “As for me, I have set my King
on Zion, my holy hill.”
7 I will tell of the decree:
The LORD said to me, “You are my Son;
today I have begotten you.
8 Ask of me, and I will make the nations your heritage,
and the ends of the earth your possession.
9 You shall breakb them with a rod of iron
and dash them in pieces like a potter’s vessel.”

and it happened just that way, in the days of those kings (Acts 4). The Lord raised up Jesus to the Highest place at His Right Hand where He has all authority in heaven and on earth. He is King now!
the stone broke them in pieces and is filling the whole earth becoming a great mountain!
No Postponement.
Hallelujah
Hallelujah
Amen

Let's look carefully at the rejection of the Messiah:
Matthew 21:23-46
23 He went into the Temple area; and as he was teaching, the head cohanim (priests) and the elders of the people approached him and demanded,

“What s’mikhah (laying on of hands; ordination; grant of authority) do you have that authorizes you to do these things? And who gave you this s’mikhah?”

24 Yeshua answered,

“I too will ask you a question. If you answer it, then I will tell you by what s’mikhah I do these things. 25 The immersion of Yochanan — where did it come from? From Heaven or from a human source?”

They discussed it among themselves:

“If we say, ‘From Heaven,’ he will say, ‘Then why didn’t you believe him?’ 26 But if we say, ‘From a human source,’ we are afraid of the people, for they all regard Yochanan as a prophet.”

27 So they answered Yeshua,

“We don’t know.”

And he replied,

“Then I won’t tell you by what s’mikhah I do these things.
28 “But give me your opinion: a man had two sons. He went to the first and said, ‘Son, go and work today in the vineyard.’ 29 He answered, ‘I don’t want to’; but later he changed his mind and went. 30 The father went to his other son and said the same thing. This one answered, ‘I will, sir’; but he didn’t go. 31 Which of the two did what his father wanted?”

“The first,” they replied.

“That’s right!” Yeshua said to them. “I tell you that the tax-collectors and prostitutes are going into the Kingdom of God ahead of you! 32 For Yochanan came to you showing the path to righteousness, and you wouldn’t trust him. The tax-collectors and prostitutes trusted him; but you, even after you saw this, didn’t change your minds later and trust him.
33 “Now listen to another parable. There was a farmer who planted a vineyard. He put a wall around it, dug a pit for the winepress and built a tower; then he rented it to tenants and left. 34 When harvest-time came, he sent his servants to the tenants to collect his share of the crop. 35 But the tenants seized his servants — this one they beat up, that one they killed, another they stoned. 36 So he sent some other servants, more than the first group, and they did the same to them. 37 Finally, he sent them his son, saying, ‘My son they will respect.’ 38 But when the tenants saw the son, they said to each other, ‘This is the heir. Come, let’s kill him and take his inheritance!’ 39 So they grabbed him, threw him out of the vineyard and killed him. 40 Now when the owner of the vineyard comes, what will he do to those tenants?”

41 They answered him, “He will viciously destroy those vicious men and rent out the vineyard to other tenants who will give him his share of the crop when it’s due.”

42 Yeshua said to them, “Haven’t you ever read in the Tanakh (the Torah [Pentateuch], Navi'iym [Prophets] and Ketuviym [Writings]),

‘The very rock which the builders rejected
has become the cornerstone (capstone)!
This has come from Adonai,
and in our eyes it is amazing’?

43 Therefore, I tell you that the Kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to the kind of people that will produce its fruit!” 44

45 As the head cohanim and the P’rushim listened to his stories, they saw that he was speaking about them. 46 But when they set about to arrest him, they were afraid of the crowds; because the crowds considered him a prophet.
CJB

Luke 19:11-28
11 While they were listening to this, Yeshua went on to tell a parable, because he was near Yerushalayim, and the people supposed that the Kingdom of God was about to appear at any moment. 12 Therefore he said,

“A nobleman went to a country far away to have himself crowned king and then return. 13 Calling ten of his servants, he gave them ten manim [a maneh is about three months’ wages] and said to them, ‘Do business with this while I’m away.’ 14 But his countrymen hated him, and they sent a delegation after him to say, ‘We don’t want this man to rule over us.’
15 “However, he returned, having been made king, and sent for the servants to whom he had given the money, to find out what each one had earned in his business dealings. 16 The first one came in and said, ‘Sir, your maneh has earned ten more manim.’ 17 ‘Excellent!’ he said to him. ‘You are a good servant. Because you have been trustworthy in a small matter, I am putting you in charge of ten towns.’ 18 The second one came and said, ‘Sir, your maneh has earned five more manim'; 19 and to this one he said, ‘You be in charge of five towns.’
20 “Then another one came and said, ‘Sir, here is your maneh. I kept it hidden in a piece of cloth, 21 because I was afraid of you — you take out what you didn’t put in, and you harvest what you didn’t plant.’ 22 To him the master said, ‘You wicked servant! I will judge you by your own words! So you knew, did you, that I was a severe man, taking out what I didn’t put in and harvesting what I didn’t plant? 23 Then why didn’t you put my money in the bank? Then, when I returned, I would have gotten it back with interest!’ 24 To those standing by, he said, ‘Take the maneh from him and give it to the one with ten manim.’ 25 They said to him, ‘Sir, he already has ten manim!’ 26 But the master answered, ‘I tell you, everyone who has something will be given more; but from anyone who has nothing, even what he does have will be taken away. 27 However, as for these enemies of mine who did not want me to be their king, bring them here and execute them in my presence!’”

28 After saying this, Yeshua went on and began the ascent to Yerushalayim.
CJB

Matthew 23:1-39
1 Then Yeshua addressed the crowds and his talmidim (disciples; students): 2 “The Torah-teachers and the P’rushim,” he said, “sit in the seat of Moshe. 3 So whatever they tell you, take care to do it. But don’t do what they do, because they talk but don’t act! 4 They tie heavy loads onto people’s shoulders but won’t lift a finger to help carry them. 5 Everything they do is done to be seen by others; for they make their t’fillin (phylacteries) broad and their tzitziyot (tassels on their talits, their prayer shawls) long, 6 they love the place of honor at banquets and the best seats in the synagogues, 7 and they love being greeted deferentially in the marketplaces and being called ‘Rabbi.’
8 “But you are not to let yourselves be called ‘Rabbi’; because you have one Rabbi, and you are all each other’s brothers. 9 And do not call anyone on earth ‘Father.’ because you have one Father, and he is in heaven. 10 Nor are you to let yourselves be called ‘leaders,’ because you have one Leader, and he is the Messiah! 11 The greatest among you must be your servant, 12 for whoever promotes himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be promoted.
13 “But woe to you hypocritical Torah-teachers and P’rushim! For you are shutting the Kingdom of Heaven in people’s faces, neither entering yourselves nor allowing those who wish to enter to do so.
(14 "Woe to you hypocritical Torah-teachers and P’rushim! For you swallow up widow's houses while making a show of davvening at great length. Because of this your punishment will be all the worse!)
15 “Woe to you hypocritical Torah-teachers and P’rushim! You go about over land and sea to make one proselyte; and when you succeed, you make him twice as fit for Gei-Hinnom (Valley of Hinnom) as you are!
16 “Woe to you, you blind guides! You say, ‘If someone swears by the Temple, he is not bound by his oath; but if he swears by the gold in the Temple, he is bound.’ 17 You blind fools! Which is more important? the gold? or the Temple which makes the gold holy? 18 And you say, ‘If someone swears by the altar, he is not bound by his oath; but if he swears by the offering on the altar, he is bound.’ 19 Blind men! Which is more important? the sacrifice? or the altar which makes the sacrifice holy? 20 So someone who swears by the altar swears by it and everything on it. 21 And someone who swears by the Temple swears by it and the One who lives in it. 22 And someone who swears by heaven swears by God’s throne and the One who sits on it.
23 “Woe to you hypocritical Torah-teachers and P’rushim! You pay your tithes of mint, dill and cumin; but you have neglected the weightier matters of the Torah — justice, mercy, trust. These are the things you should have attended to — without neglecting the others! 24 Blind guides! — straining out a gnat, meanwhile swallowing a camel!
25 “Woe to you hypocritical Torah-teachers and P’rushim! You clean the outside of the cup and the dish, but inside they are full of robbery and self-indulgence. 26 Blind Parush! First clean the inside of the cup, so that the outside may be clean too.
27 “Woe to you hypocritical Torah-teachers and P’rushim! You are like whitewashed tombs, which look fine on the outside but inside are full of dead people’s bones and all kinds of rottenness. 28 Likewise, you appear to people from the outside to be good and honest, but inwardly you are full of hypocrisy and far from Torah.
29 “Woe to you hypocritical Torah-teachers and P’rushim! You build tombs for the prophets and decorate the graves of the tzaddikim, 30 and you say, ‘Had we lived when our fathers did, we would never have taken part in killing the prophets.’ 31 In this you testify against yourselves that you are worthy descendants of those who murdered the prophets. 32 Go ahead then, finish what your fathers started!
33 “You snakes! Sons of snakes! How can you escape being condemned to Gei-Hinnom? 34 Therefore I am sending you prophets and sages and Torah-teachers — some of them you will kill, indeed, you will have them executed on stakes as criminals; some you will flog in your synagogues and pursue from town to town. 35 And so, on you will fall the guilt for all the innocent blood that has ever been shed on earth, from the blood of innocent Hevel to the blood of Z’kharyah Ben-Berekhyah, whom you murdered between the Temple and the altar. 36 Yes! I tell you that all this will fall on this generation!
37 “Yerushalayim! Yerushalayim! You kill the prophets! You stone those who are sent to you! How often I wanted to gather your children, just as a hen gathers her chickens under her wings, but you refused! 38 Look! God is abandoning your house to you, leaving it desolate. (Daniel 9:27) 39 For I tell you, from now on, you will not see me again until you say, ‘Blessed is he who comes in the name of Adonai.’” (Psalm 118:26)
CJB

So, you can label what I believe and call it "postponement theology" and discard it, if you choose (to your own detriment for not believing the Scriptures), but Yeshua` LEFT the earth, taking His offer of the Kingdom WITH HIM! And, both he and the two men who appeared beside His disciples promised that He would return just as He left. The Kingdom is not here in some "mystical, ethereal, spiritual" sense! I've said it before, and it bears repeating: If Yeshua` is currently reigning ANYWHERE, then He is the weakest, most ineffective King in human history! When He does return, the Kingdom that He establishes will leave you with NO DOUBT WHATEVER that He will be reigning with a rod of iron and a wisdom greater than that of Smoh (Solomon)!

There's no mountain called Zion in that MYTHICAL place people call "Heaven!" The REAL mountain Tsiyown (rendered "Zion" in English) is in Isra'el under the Old City of Yerushalayim (Jerusalem). You can go there today and see it for yourself! If you go to Yerushalayim from ... say ... Tel Aviv, you will be climbing up into the mountains! So, when one reads Psalm 2, one is reading a prophetic scene about a future that HASN'T HAPPENED, YET!

Psalm 2:1-12
1 Why are the nations in an uproar,
the peoples grumbling in vain?
2 The earth’s kings are taking positions,
leaders conspiring together,
against Adonai and his Anointed.
3 They cry,

“Let’s break their fetters!
Let’s throw off their chains!”

4 He who sits in heaven laughs;
Adonai looks at them in derision.
5 Then in his anger he rebukes them,
terrifies them in his fury.

6 “I myself have installed my king
on Tziyon, my holy mountain.”
7 “I will proclaim the decree:

Adonai said to me,

‘You are my son;
today I became your father.
8 Ask of me, and I will make
the nations your inheritance;
the whole wide world
will be your possession.
9 You will break them with an iron rod,
shatter them like a clay pot.’”

10 "Therefore, kings, be wise;
be warned, you judges of the earth.
11 Serve Adonai with fear;
rejoice, but with trembling.
12 Kiss the son, lest he be angry,
and you perish along the way,
when suddenly his anger blazes.
How blessed are all who take refuge in him."
CJB

So, what was Kefa (Peter) talking about by quoting Psalm 2:1-2? He was saying that it was ALREADY BEGINNING TO BE FULFILLED, not that it HAD been fulfilled!

Acts 4:5-31
5 The next day, the people’s rulers, elders and Torah-teachers assembled in Yerushalayim, 6 along with ‘Anan the cohen hagadol (the high priest), Kayafa, Yochanan, Alexander and the other men from the family of the cohen hagadol. 7 They had the emissaries stand before them and asked, “By what power or in what name (on whose authority) did you do this?”

8 Then Kefa, filled with the Ruach HaKodesh, said to them,

“Rulers and elders of the people! 9 If we are being examined today about a good deed done for a disabled person, if you want to know how he was restored to health, 10 then let it be known to you and to all the people of Isra’el that it is in the name of (on the authority of) the Messiah, Yeshua from Natzeret, whom you had executed on a stake as a criminal but whom God has raised from the dead, that this man stands before you perfectly healed.
11 “This Yeshua is the stone rejected by you builders which has become the cornerstone (capstone). (Psalm 118:22) 12 There is salvation (rescue; deliverance) in no one else! For there is no other name under heaven given to mankind by whom we must be saved (rescued; delivered)!”

13 When they saw how bold Kefa and Yochanan were, even though they were untrained ‘am-ha’aretz ("people of the Land," Jewish commoners), they were amazed; also they recognized them as having been with Yeshua. 14 Moreover, since they could see the man who had been healed standing right there beside them, there was nothing they could say to discredit the healing. 15 So they told them to step away from the Sanhedrin while they discussed the matter privately.

16 “What can we do with these men?” they asked each other. “Why, anyone in Yerushalayim can see that a remarkable miracle has come about through them — we can’t possibly deny that. 17 But to prevent it from spreading any further among the people, let’s warn them not to speak any more to anyone in this name (on this authority).”

18 So they called them in again and ordered them under no circumstances to speak or teach in the name of (on the authority of) Yeshua. 19 But Kefa and Yochanan answered,

“You must judge whether it is right in the sight of God to listen to you rather than God. 20 As for us, we can’t help talking about what we have actually seen and heard.”

21 They threatened them some more but finally let them go — they couldn’t punish them because of the people, for everyone was praising God over what had happened, 22 since the man who had been miraculously healed was more than forty years old.

23 Upon being released, they went back to their friends and reported what the head cohanim and elders had said to them. 24 When they heard it, they raised their voices to God with singleness of heart.

“Master,” they prayed,
“You made heaven, earth, the sea and everything in them. 25 By the Ruach HaKodesh, through the mouth of our father David, your servant, you said,

‘Why did the nations rage
and the peoples devise useless plans?
26 The kings of the earth took their stand;
and the rulers assembled together
against Adonai
and against his Messiah.’ (Psalm 2:1-2)

27 “This has come true in this city, since Herod and Pontius Pilate, with Goyim and the peoples of Isra’el, all assembled against your holy servant Yeshua, whom you made Messiah, 28 to do what your power and plan had already determined beforehand should happen.
29 “So now, Lord, take note of their threats; and enable your slaves to speak your message with boldness! 30 Stretch out your hand to heal and to do signs and miracles through the name of your holy servant Yeshua!”

31 While they were still praying, the place where they were gathered was shaken. They were all filled with the Ruach HaKodesh, and they spoke God’s message with boldness.
CJB

It STARTED to be fulfilled in the first century in Yerushalayim, but it won't be completely fulfilled until Yeshua` returns and begins to reign over other nations. As can be seen from the second Psalm above, we are looking at a "U.N. meeting" which God the Father interrupts! That has NOT yet happened.

 

[Poppin]

Retrobyter, there's nothing about a UN meeting in that passage.
It spells it out as fulfilled. the rulers (jewish) and kings (Herod & ceasars) were gathered together against Jesus.
To no avail. This was fulfilled in Christ's First Coming, and is a direct parallel to the passages in Acts. Jesus has all authority in heaven and on earth - He is King now.

Daniel 2
Daniel Interprets the Dream
31“You saw, O king, and behold, a great image. This image, mighty and of exceeding brightness, stood before you, and its appearance was frightening. 32The head of this image was of fine gold, its chest and arms of silver, its middle and thighs of bronze, 33its legs of iron, its feet partly of iron and partly of clay. 34As you looked, a stone was cut out by no human hand, and it struck the image on its feet of iron and clay, and broke them in pieces. 35Then the iron, the clay, the bronze, the silver, and the gold, all together were broken in pieces, and became like the chaff of the summer threshing floors; and the wind carried them away, so that not a trace of them could be found. But the stone that struck the image became a great mountain and filled the whole earth.

36“This was the dream. Now we will tell the king its interpretation. 37You, O king, the king of kings, to whom the God of heaven has given the kingdom, the power, and the might, and the glory, 38and into whose hand he has given, wherever they dwell, the children of man, the beasts of the field, and the birds of the heavens, making you rule over them all—you are the head of gold. 39Another kingdom inferior to you shall arise after you, and yet a third kingdom of bronze, which shall rule over all the earth. 40And there shall be a fourth kingdom, strong as iron, because iron breaks to pieces and shatters all things. And like iron that crushes, it shall break and crush all these. 41And as you saw the feet and toes, partly of potter’s clay and partly of iron, it shall be a divided kingdom, but some of the firmness of iron shall be in it, just as you saw iron mixed with the soft clay. 42And as the toes of the feet were partly iron and partly clay, so the kingdom shall be partly strong and partly brittle. 43As you saw the iron mixed with soft clay, so they will mix with one another in marriage,c but they will not hold together, just as iron does not mix with clay. 44And in the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that shall never be destroyed, nor shall the kingdom be left to another people. It shall break in pieces all these kingdoms and bring them to an end, and it shall stand forever, 45just as you saw that a stone was cut from a mountain by no human hand, and that it broke in pieces the iron, the bronze, the clay, the silver, and the gold. A great God has made known to the king what shall be after this. The dream is certain, and its interpretation sure.”

It says clearly, in the days of those kings (Psalm 2) (Pilate and the Jewish rebels) the God of heaven set up a Kingdom.
It shall never be destroyed. Citizens of the Kingdom have eternal life, the Kingdom is eternal.
Jesus is far above all power and authority, at the right hand of God.
Daniel is a book about the jewish people - it says in 2 that the Stone cut without hands smashed the image at the feet.

No, earthly Jerusalem has no further role in God`s Plan. the transfer was made once for all time, and Paul confirmed it.
we see the writer to the Hebrews confirming what you say is not true - that Heavenly Zion is the fulfillment, not earthly Jerusalem

Hebrews 12
A Kingdom That Cannot Be Shaken
18For you have not come to what may be touched, a blazing fire and darkness and gloom and a tempest 19and the sound of a trumpet and a voice whose words made the hearers beg that no further messages be spoken to them. 20For they could not endure the order that was given, “If even a beast touches the mountain, it shall be stoned.” 21Indeed, so terrifying was the sight that Moses said, “I tremble with fear.” 22But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to innumerable angels in festal gathering, 23and to the assemblya of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect, 24and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks a better word than the blood of Abel.

25See that you do not refuse him who is speaking. For if they did not escape when they refused him who warned them on earth, much less will we escape if we reject him who warns from heaven. 26At that time his voice shook the earth, but now he has promised, “Yet once more I will shake not only the earth but also the heavens.” 27This phrase, “Yet once more,” indicates the removal of things that are shaken—that is, things that have been made—in order that the things that cannot be shaken may remain. 28Therefore let us be grateful for receiving a kingdom that cannot be shaken, and thus let us offer to God acceptable worship, with reverence and awe, 29for our God is a consuming fire.

sorry Angelina.
God Bless, I will see if there is another thread to continue this off topic.
Poppin

We are talking about the O/P which is Strange Fire - A Pentecostal Response. :)
Rocky commented that the real issue is lack of fire rather than strange fire. I think that those who have not been a part of a Pentecostal Church are concentrating more on what the Church would consider as normal rather than strange, prophecy, tongues and interpretation of tongues, deliverance, healing etc - all or some of these gifts of the Holy Spirit can be found functioning in most Pentecostal churches today and considered normal.


Hey Poppin,
Here are some of the "REAL" miracles that I have already posted here at CyB. This is only a portion of the miracles I have not only witnessed but have also experienced...
http://www.christianityboard.com/topic/15724-i-believe-in-miracles/

My testimony is also posted here on this forum...post 2
http://www.christianityboard.com/topic/13640-why-do-you-love-god/?hl=%2Bmiss+%2Bhepburn

I have been a Christian for many years now and born-again for 20 of it, this year. God has blessed me mightily in many areas of ministry including; Youth outreaches, preaching, teaching, evangelism, overseas missions, deliverance, worship, prayer/warfare ministry for the church and visiting speakers/ministries. I have not been idle with Gods word and have led approx 800 believer's to the cross that leads to salvation in personal ministry - that is to friends, family and neighbors which does not include ministries associated through the Church.


He certainly can and does perform miracles today, I agree and would really like you to point out the scripture that states "God has ceased using the gifts of tongues, interpretation of tongues and other gifts?" Please give the chapter and verse :)

Thank you and Be Blessed!

hi Angelina. I read your testimonies and page on miracles. I understand what you are saying, but cessation of the apostolic era gifts is a very precise theological position. Cessationists for the most part do not believe there are prophets today, for example. I believe this position can not only be supported by scripture, but is clearly seen in Church History, with the `revival`of Pentecostal gifts only being a recent phenomenon...In other words, unless it could be shown that there has been apostolic succession (they were witnesses of the resurrected Christ), and that there has been ongoing prophecy through Church History, even continuationists will concede that gifts ceased then were revived or renewed.
I think I can argue against the continuationist position from Church History alone. The suggestion has been made that perhaps the gifts ceased due to suppression by formalism or unbelief, and that a new generation has rediscovered the gifts through desiring them, and so on....I believe this position can be shown to be faulty.

I believe scripture is clear that the gift of tongues was the supernatural hearing and speaking of the Wonderful Works of God, The Gospel of Christ in the languages of the nations gathered at jerusalem. Acts 2 lists the countries which the devout disapora jews we born in, they had come to jerusalem for pentecost and heard the disciples from Galilee speaking in their native languages.

I do not believe scripture allows for unknown sounds such as is practiced by Pentecostals, which appears to have come to be described as an angelic or private prayer language. i do not believe the text supports that idea. Its a controversial subject, but it is for both sides. So the gift of languages and the interpretation of languages etc were included in revelatory gifts - in other words, the disciples were receiving ongoing real time revelation from God, because it was being revealed in real time. we read about it in Acts (for example). So though Im sure you have had this conversation many times (as i have - haha), if we could zero in one one thing to define whether or not the gift ceased or continued, tongues is a good place to start. But i do not know if it is off topic to ask about that here.

But, if this would be better suited to a separate thread I could do that. I watched the Strange Fire Conference, and am a Cessationist with thoughts on it...though this thread is for the Pentecostal thoughts on the conference, I know.
God Bless and mercy and grace to you
Poppin