Submission Of The Wife: How Serious A Matter Is It?

[Hidden In Him]

Thank you for all your hard work on this, Hidden. Before your posts, I had no idea about what a "minuscule" was! I'm still a "baby" Apologist, and I'll tell ya...

...the more I learn, the more I realize, how little I know!

It's that way for a lot of people.

I DO have a question for you. I think that most of us agree that Bible is inspired by the Holy Spirit. But does that mean that the editors, copiests and translators, are also inspired by the Holy Spirit?

No it does not, and there are many more variations in the original manuscripts than most believers are aware of.

Like I said, I'd rather not turn this thread into a heated argument about manuscripts (with Enoch), but while the Received Text and earlier texts like Alexandrinus don't disagree in theological meaning except for in a couple of places, they do vary greatly in a lot of places as far as how much is actually said.

It's a long and yes technical discussion, but the answer is No. Not all the translators and copyists were always fully inspired in what they provided us with, and there are two camps on this that will argue very strongly about which is more trustworthy.

 

[Hidden In Him]

Too many ppl do not realize the sacrity of marriage, the union is to be holy and to each other not " all about me" whether it is the male or female in the relationship. It must be in checks and balances just as our relationship with God!

Exactly.

I put it a little more bluntly, but that was my point as well. "Checks and balances" is a very good way to put it. A partner in a relationship has every right and even a responsibility to keep the other in check if they are getting too far out of line. It should be common sense, but it's amazing how many believers throw common sense out the window when it comes to their interpretations of scripture.

I hold my wife accountable to TELL me when I am overdoing it. I expect her too, because I can't read her mind. How do we know what the other is feeling and going through if they never express themselves?

 

[Hidden In Him]

If a man had his flesh crucified, doing nothing out of selfishness, and actually walking in the Spirit, not only would his wife submit to him, but so would other believers.

Not necessarily. A godly woman would, yes, but a sinner would give him Hell every single step of the way whether he was being selfless or not.

Ungodly people don't like being told what to do, and unless they are somehow made to they never will. That's why being unequally yoked makes for a truly miserable life and a miserable marriage. The only way a godly husband can get an ungodly wife to move in the right direction is if he pulls on the yoke so hard she has no choice, but it's a never-ending battle.

Nightmare situation.

 

[Mink57]

That was my point.


Now this is an insightful question, and my answer would be Yes. In fact, that is what the New Testament teachings actually asked the believer to do when they say, "love your wives as yourselves," or "knowing you have a Master in Heaven, and that there is no respect of persons with God." They were trying to get the believer to think in terms of "what if the shoe is on the other foot. How would you be treating the other if the tables were turned?"

Yup! I was in counseling with my late husband (with a Christian counselor), and asked my husband, "How would YOU like it if I did "X, Y, Z?" He danced around the issue. It took the counselor, and me, to keep HOUNDING him, until he FINALLY, literally YELLED out, "NO! I WOULDN'T LIKE IT!" I then asked, "Then WHY do you do it to ME?"

He had no answer.

I sometimes think about what it would be like if my wife were the man and I were the woman. I think I'm the better leader, quite frankly, LoL, cuz as nice as she is she can be a real b-i-t-c-h to have to work for. Others know this as well. Very demanding. But I would be fine with the other role. I'd just have to make sure she understood not to overstep her boundaries.

I wonder how many other men would do as you've done...LOL! They'd probably be too scared to think about that!

See, and that's another thing ... well, it's something I've already said, RESPECT. I have absolutely no problems with a woman getting downright in a husband's face if he's really screwing up and being a pompous jerk.

Oh, GOODY! Then, you would like me, in real life! I'm not a genius by any means, but don't piss on my leg, and tell me it's raining! I'll slam/dunk ya into the next century...verbally!

It's something I work over in my mind when it comes to interacting with other believers as well, because I will occasionally take someone's head clean off in public (i.e. humiliate and demean them to the fullest extent of my ability) if I think they are truly asking for it. Does Scripture say to turn the other cheek? Yes. Does it say for slaves to do good even to cruel masters? Yes. But what many don't notice in those two instances is that the one being mistreated has no rights, and is in no position to make any demands. It is NOT that way in a marriage, and the wife very WELL expect things of her husband. I don't mean tell him what to do, but I mean hold him accountable for treating her fairly and respectfully.

I agree here...

And I'll go you one further, believers have every right to hold the Lord Jesus Christ accountable as well. I have on a few occasions, and He honors it and honors my faith. Why? Because He's not a Dictator, and wants to know how I truly feel about things. I'm not talking about getting anything I want AT ALL. That's a different matter. But I am talking about a believer having RIGHTS in a relationship, and holding Him to the expectation of treating me decently and with Love. Someone asked recently, "Would you change your faith?" I would change it in a heartbeat if I found either in scripture or by experience that my God was cruel. But I don't find that. He can be hard on me sometimes, but He ever only does so for my good. So we work it out.

And that's REALLY what it comes down to.

But the same goes for a wife, and the same goes for a believer, and if anyone messes with me in a way that shows way too little respect they will get my business end, and I don't care how much it hurts them or humiliates them.

I think that wives, ALSO want respect. And while the passage says, that wives are to "respect" their husbands, and husbands are to "love" their wives, I don't think that love and respect are somehow as far apart, as we would want them to be. Is respect, not part of love, and love not part of respect?

That in fact is exactly what I am striving for and I will not stop until the point has been communicated, and with the utmost clarity. We are not doormats, and should never treat one another as such, and that goes for husbands and wives, laymen and pastors, believers and believers. The good thing with the Lord is you never have to go that far, whereas with believers and marital partners you sometimes do. I've absolutely lost my cool with the Lord a few times, but I won't get demeaning with Him. But I will get demanding with Him when I feel I am being mistreated. I'm not afraid to in the least, and neither should a wife be. The trick is getting to the place where one isn't offended with things, but so long as one is, my take is that they have every right and even a necessity to let the other person know about it or they are not being honest in the relationship.

Absolutely. More on this later. Right now, I'm working on a new thread.

Yes, Mink is going to post a new thread! Oh, the horror...the horror...

 

[Hidden In Him]

Demanding seems to mean, "Do It Because I Say So!" No real rhyme or reason to it. Sort of, rooted in selfishness.

Absolute worst way to lead, IMO.

Any leader worth his weight in salt will explain why someone under him should do things. Otherwise he is simply asking for them to question his decision-making, and in reality they should be if he thinks he need not explain himself. The Lord? Maybe. There can be a trust there even when we don't understand because we know He is perfect and knows all things. But even then we have every right to ask why, and as scripture says, "He gives wisdom to everyone who asks, and does not bring reproach."

 

[Hidden In Him]

Yup! I was in counseling with my late husband (with a Christian counselor), and asked my husband, "How would YOU like it if I did "X, Y, Z?" He danced around the issue. It took the counselor, and me, to keep HOUNDING him, until he FINALLY, literally YELLED out, "NO! I WOULDN'T LIKE IT!" I then asked, "Then WHY do you do it to ME?"

He had no answer.

Lol. See and even that would set me off a little. I'd be like, "Well how come it took two people to finally beat it out of you, you DIM BULB!" LoL.

I wonder how many other men would do as you've done...LOL! They'd probably be too scared to think about that!

LoLoL!!! This is where the conversation gets good, LoL!

Oh, GOODY! Then, you would like me, in real life! I'm not a genius by any means, but don't piss on my leg, and tell me it's raining! I'll slam/dunk ya into the next century...vetbally!

A ha ha hah!~!!

 

[Mink57]

Lol. See and even that would set me off a little. I'd be like, "Well how come it took two people to finally beat it out of you, you DIM BULB!" LoL.


LoLoL!!! This is where the conversation gets good, LoL!


A ha ha hah!~!!

People that me knew asked me, why I wanted a divorce.

Them: How come you don't want to be with your husband anymore?
Me: Because of religious differences.
Them: What do you mean?
Me: Because HE THOUGHT HE WAS GOD, OR THAT HE SHOULD BE GOD. I DIDN'T AGREE...

(and YES, he DID say those words to me!)

 

[Hidden In Him]

People that we knew asked me, why I wanted a divorce.

Them: How come you don't want to be with your husband anymore?
Me: Because of religious differences.
Them: What do you mean?
Me: Because HE THOUGHT HE WAS GOD, OR THAT HE SHOULD BE GOD. I DIDN'T AGREE...

(and YES, he DID say those words to me!)

Thanks for the laughs, Lol.

I sensed there was a reason I was interacting with you so much. We need more of a sense of humor in the body of Christ, LoL!

 

[stunnedbygrace]

I was a paralegal for a number of years. I'd like to 'take a shot'...if I may...?

Start the thread!

 

[Mink57]

Thanks for the laughs, Lol.

I sensed there was a reason I was interacting with you so much. We need more of a sense of humor in the body of Christ, LoL!

Oh, trust me...I'm one of "those" Christians who has an on-going 'conversation' with God/Jesus every day! We laugh together...cry together...I get mad at Him...He 'turns my head around to see the error of my ways..." I apologize...confess...do the whole ''face/palm" thing...And I do it in the sense that I'm talking with a friend. Kind of like, "O.k. Jesus...I want to do 'this' in the next few minutes..." and suddenly, I can't do "this" for whatever reason. Then I'll say something like, "Well, gee...THAT didn't work out too well..." (as I'm rapping my fingernails on the table, while rolling my eyes...) And then, I suddenly have a thought..."Well, GEEZ-LUEEZ, Lord, ya coulda told me that sooner!" Then, I have another thought, "If I did, you wouldn't have LEARNED anything!"

O.k., Lord. YOU win...(face/palm again) I'll remember for next time.

No you won't....

He knows me better than I know myself!

 

[Mink57]

Start the thread!

I did! I did!

 

[Hidden In Him]

I did! I did!

For future reference, provide a link.

I gotta bounce out, but I started one too. I'm goofing off at this point thanks to you, LoL.
Good Marriage Tips (with illustrations)

 

[Mink57]

Absolute worst way to lead, IMO.

Any leader worth his weight in salt will explain why someone under him should do things. Otherwise he is simply asking for them to question his decision-making, and in reality they should be if he thinks he need not explain himself. The Lord? Maybe. There can be a trust there even when we don't understand because we know He is perfect and knows all things. But even then we have every right to ask why, and as scripture says, "He gives wisdom to everyone who asks, and does not bring reproach."

YES! And the "explanation" should be MORE than, "Because the bible says that you're supposed to 'submit'!

 

[Mink57]

What really makes me sad...and angry about this thread, is how many women have needlessly suffered because SOME husband has tried to physcally beat his wife...verbally abuse his wife...financially, sexually, emotionally abuse his wife...to try to force her into humble "submission."

This is not about feminism. This about about so many men, who want their wives to regard them as God...and not want to answer to God themselves.

The title of the OP askes, "Sumission of the Wife: How serious of a matter is it?"

And yet *I* ask about the submission of the husband...to GOD...

Doesn't seem to be as "serious" as a matter.

 

[Wrangler]

YES! And the "explanation" should be MORE than, "Because the bible says that you're supposed to 'submit'!

I disagree.

A radical component of God's word is it's covenent nature. This is in contrast to a contractual relationship. In a contractual relationship, one side is freed from the obligation if the other side fails to live up to its side.

No commandment from God requires an explanation his children have the power to 'not understand' in order to not obey it.

Your idea is to switch the burden from the receiver of Grace to the giver of Grace (or by proxy, to his agent in a marriage). To be clear, we submit to one another out of reverence for Christ (Eph 5:21) and specifically, wives are supposed to submit to the husbands because they have submitted to the Lord Jesus (Eph 5:22), not because their husbands are deserving of anything. This goes back to a triple braided cord being hard to break.

Sometimes, my wife pushes me for an explanation when I know she cares nothing for the explanation - only uses 'not understanding' as a manipulative tool to try to get what she wants. I often reply conditionally; I'll provide an explanation after you agree (submit) to the specified course of action. (Normally, I've already explained several different times and ways. Another explanation will be equally unpalatable). A common topic that follows this pattern is spending on home improvement projects. I tend not to object to WHAT but WHEN to spend.

Hope this helps.

 

[Mink57]

I disagree.

A radical component of God's word is it's covenent nature. This is in contrast to a contractual relationship. In a contractual relationship, one side is freed from the obligation if the other side fails to live up to its side.

No commandment from God requires an explanation his children have the power to 'not understand' in order to not obey it.

Your idea is to switch the burden from the receiver of Grace to the giver of Grace (or by proxy, to his agent in a marriage). To be clear, we submit to one another out of reverence for Christ (Eph 5:21) and specifically, wives are supposed to submit to the husbands because they have submitted to the Lord Jesus (Eph 5:22), not because their husbands are deserving of anything. This goes back to a triple braided cord being hard to break.

Sometimes, my wife pushes me for an explanation when I know she cares nothing for the explanation - only uses 'not understanding' as a manipulative tool to try to get what she wants. I often reply conditionally; I'll provide an explanation after you agree (submit) to the specified course of action. (Normally, I've already explained several different times and ways. Another explanation will be equally unpalatable). A common topic that follows this pattern is spending on home improvement projects. I tend not to object to WHAT but WHEN to spend.

Hope this helps.

God DOES explain. And God has explained. He's explained a number of times.

Perhaps you missed it.

 

[Hidden In Him]

What really makes me sad...and angry about this thread, is how many women have needlessly suffered because SOME husband has tried to physcally beat his wife...verbally abuse his wife...financially, sexually, emotionally abuse his wife...to try to force her into humble "submission."

This is not about feminism. This about about so many men, who want their wives to regard them as God...and not want to answer to God themselves.

The title of the OP askes, "Sumission of the Wife: How serious of a matter is it?"

And yet *I* ask about the submission of the husband...to GOD...

Doesn't seem to be as "serious" as a matter.

No, I agree.

I just think it's so hard to argue against that you don't see many even trying to defend it. But it is very sad that it goes on, and in the name of God no less.

 

[Mink57]

No, I agree.

I just think it's so hard to argue against that you don't see many even trying to defend it. But it is very sad that it goes on, and in the name of God no less.

Unfortunately, I see too many who try to defend it by saying, "God sed so!"... while having no idea what they're talking about. As if, mentioning God STOPS an arguement.

I can't tell you how many faux-Christian men who have used the bible verses you've quoted...without knowing anything else about the bible...in order to use that against their wives, to get them to 'submit' to their selfishness. Some of these guys, don't even attend church. But they'll be the first ones to shove those bible verses in their wives faces...especially if they know, that SHE'S a church-goer.

The title of your OP is HUGE. The answer really depends on where God is in our lives. I asked you before about the Golden Rule, and you gave a a worthy response. But...

...too many people don't apply it. Somehow, in their minds, the Golden Rule doesn't apply to spouses. Human respect doesn't apply to spouses. Financial respect...sexual respect...privacy...courtesy...doesn't apply to spouses. I've heard too many men (and yes, some women, too) who'll say things like, "She's my WIFE! I'm allowed to walk in the bathroom while she's in there..." or, "She's my WIFE! I'm allowed to read her diary!"...or, "she's my WIFE! I'm allowed to touch her whenever I FEEL like it!"

The whole attitude on the subject just baffles me.

 

[Mink57]

For future reference, provide a link.

I gotta bounce out, but I started one too. I'm goofing off at this point thanks to you, LoL.
Good Marriage Tips (with illustrations)

Ummm...not sure how to do that.

I posted the new thread in the same forum we're in now. Christian Theology...

...I think...

Try this...maybe...?
Letter of the Law vs. Spirit of the Law | Christian Forums @ Christianity Board...?

 

[Wrangler]

God DOES explain. And God has explained. He's explained a number of times.

Perhaps you missed it.

Are you saying that God explained but his explanation is insufficient?

Not sure where you are getting that from. God didn’t explain to Job. And he said his ways are higher, which is not exactly an explanation. Finally, Jesus asked for the cup to be taken. Request denied with no explanation in the narrative.

If you’re right, then why are you pretending the husband has the burden to explain again? What verse says you only have to obey commands IF a satisfactory explanation is given?

Faith is not about understanding an explanation but acting in its absence. Perhaps you missed it.