Submit oneself to the Pastor, Magesterium, Word, or ?
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So every woman needs to place her trust in a man, but you can't? Or perhaps you might have misapplied this passage of scripture. (more likely)rockytopva said:
Thank you folks for caring...sometimers again...I spaced out this thread..thank you for hanging in there.Trekson said:
This Vale Of Tears said:
Brother Vale, thank you for your response!
Always appreciate you and your words.
I know that everyone believes that but that isn't what it says in the Greek:This Vale Of Tears said:
Hebrews 13:17 Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that [is] unprofitable for you.
"Verse 17. Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit to them:-The same word,"guides", as in verse 7, where see note. These are the living ones, gifts bestowed by the Holy Spirit in the assemblies. The obedience and submission enjoined are not blind subjection to authority. True guides teach the Word of God, to which believers are to bring everything to the test.", p. 163
"VERSE 7. Remember them that had the rule over you, which spake unto you the word of God;- The verb in the original means "guides" (the noun is formed from the article with the present participle,'the ones leading'). What is signified here is not rule but leadership (by ministry of life and word), as in 2 Cor. 1:24. The aorist tense rendered 'spake' sums up their ministry. The same word is used in verse 17.", p. 159
From "The Epistle to the Hebrews" by W.E. Vine.
What I guess is that it doesn't mean "rule" but "leadership" and the church has it wrong sometimes. This is what happens when you have the church not reading the original languages.
@ Chuckt ... During Q & A and discussion after a lecture on "Authority" at Bible College (that lecture specifically covered the very topic discussed
here), I questioned the lecturer on the same topic.
I asked him, "What entails a Believer's submission to Church authority, how far do you have to go (and I mentioned that I had heard of some
churches where you had to get the approval of the leadership of where you could work, who to marry etc.) ?
And then I quoted Matt 20:25 - 27,
But Jesus called the disciples and said, "You know that the rulers of the gentiles lord it over them and their superiors act like tyrants over them.
That's not the way it should be among you. Instead, whoever wants to be great among you must be your servant, and whoever wants to be first among
you must be your slave. That's the way it is with the Son of Man. He did not come to be served, but to serve and to give his life as a ransom for many
people.
Well needless to say I was not his favourite student after that as it seemed I was questioning authority at that very moment by mentioning the
Scripture above.
He tried hard to discredit any comment I made in every class he lectured after that ... and so I armed myself before lectures by studying the material
beforehand and crafted my questions.
I wish you where there, it was real and fun games much to the amusement of the class and aggravation of the lecturer who was constantly on
his toes working extra hard to make sure he didn't make a mistake.
Thank God in heaven he was not in any way involved in the marking of the examinations.
It's funny but really sad at the same time ... such is the way of man.
here), I questioned the lecturer on the same topic.
I asked him, "What entails a Believer's submission to Church authority, how far do you have to go (and I mentioned that I had heard of some
churches where you had to get the approval of the leadership of where you could work, who to marry etc.) ?
And then I quoted Matt 20:25 - 27,
But Jesus called the disciples and said, "You know that the rulers of the gentiles lord it over them and their superiors act like tyrants over them.
That's not the way it should be among you. Instead, whoever wants to be great among you must be your servant, and whoever wants to be first among
you must be your slave. That's the way it is with the Son of Man. He did not come to be served, but to serve and to give his life as a ransom for many
people.
Well needless to say I was not his favourite student after that as it seemed I was questioning authority at that very moment by mentioning the
Scripture above.
He tried hard to discredit any comment I made in every class he lectured after that ... and so I armed myself before lectures by studying the material
beforehand and crafted my questions.
I wish you where there, it was real and fun games much to the amusement of the class and aggravation of the lecturer who was constantly on
his toes working extra hard to make sure he didn't make a mistake.
Thank God in heaven he was not in any way involved in the marking of the examinations.
It's funny but really sad at the same time ... such is the way of man.
Copy it, save it to a thumb drive because few people today will tell you it and I might not be around.Enquirer said:
I wish I could have been there in the spirit of Christ. I would have loved to have brought some truth.
Everyone wants to be my teacher and yet the best teaching I have received is from the Holy Spirit bringing to my remembrance what different pastors going verse by verse taught me.
1 John 2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.
And we're supposed to grow up and be the teacher instead of always needing to be taught and yet some pastors want to be in a position that only Christ should be in and they give few opportunities for other believers to grow up or be used:
Hebrews 5:12 ¶ For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.
The reason we need to grow up and mature is because many false teachers have gone out into the world. You can't assume that someone else is going to care more about you than you. When I was young, I thought someone else would stand in the gap and fight for us but now I am at that age and it is my turn. What I have found is that people have fallen, they don't have their theology straight, they aren't doing the Biblical math of study and they all can't be trusted. When I study, I find things that people have missed. There are old doctrines that need to be rediscovered or taught. The Bible needs to be taught because people no longer teach the Bible today; they teach Biblical principles instead.
What you went through is some of the things I have gone through. I can name the church who used a very literal commentary to promote Hebrews 13:17 and there were a lot of young people in his Bible study who wouldn't say a word. I know other pastors who would abuse this verse and the world is full of abuse of power.
Another good place to start is a book on Biblical eldership because there is an abuse of power:
Biblical Eldership: An Urgent Call to Restore Biblical Church Leadership
http://www.amazon.com/Biblical-Eldership-Urgent-Restore-Leadership/dp/0936083115/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1412080545&sr=8-1&keywords=biblical+eldership
I will go through life doing evangelism and few Christians will even stand with me online and there are Christian boards which will hold down the truth in unrighteousness so I don't even get freedom of speech but I will get kicked out of places for speaking the truth. I confronted a radio station manager in email because one of his teachers was adding and subtracting from the Bible and our debate went on and he told me he printed it out and it was 70 feet long. Instead of disciplining a pastor who was adding / subtracting from the word of God, money talks about who can be on the radio. They are making their own truth.
Fewer and fewer believers are even bringing their Bibles to church these days and it seems that anything goes these days and I was taught one way in church and now I'm taught that it doesn't apply.
Thanks so much, I managed to find the book on the web in pdf and it's an excellent read so far.
I believe that my day is coming where I will Pastor my own church - I believe that God gave me this revelation
in a vision one day while I was in a state of worship.
And as surely as God made little green apples, I'm going to have this type of Ministry setup ... a leadership
of elders.
I believe that my day is coming where I will Pastor my own church - I believe that God gave me this revelation
in a vision one day while I was in a state of worship.
And as surely as God made little green apples, I'm going to have this type of Ministry setup ... a leadership
of elders.
@ lforrest ... agreed ... that is why a person would need to put checks and balances in place.
Each one would be assigned their own tasks based on their specific calling ... the teachers would have their
own checklist of duties, Pastors theirs and so on.
Failure to meet these goals or routines would mean a reprimand or removal from office.
If we look at early Jerusalem church, Paul said that he perceived or saw that Peter, James and John were the leaders of that church.
So that meant that there was a final authority in place.
Each one would be assigned their own tasks based on their specific calling ... the teachers would have their
own checklist of duties, Pastors theirs and so on.
Failure to meet these goals or routines would mean a reprimand or removal from office.
If we look at early Jerusalem church, Paul said that he perceived or saw that Peter, James and John were the leaders of that church.
So that meant that there was a final authority in place.
Checks and balances are a good idea but there is no fail safe system.
When people have too much say, it may lead to church splits.
When people have little to say, they are complacent; they don't challenge the pastor, teaching, heresy, whatever.
Unity is more like a triangle with God at the top, me at the bottom left and someone else at the bottom right. It really takes God to hold people together so that we can have unity.
The attitude that we don't have to get our theology straight, that we don't have to study or do systematic theology because we feel we have arrived when in fact we aren't taught is the problem.
The model is that we are mature Christians knowing right from wrong and fully functioning:
Hebrews 5:12 ¶ For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.
Hebrews 5:13 For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.
Hebrews 5:14 But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.
Hebrews 5:12-14 is the instruction for Christian maturity and when Christians can't teach a Bible study, they aren't mature.
We need elders that can work together and be mature.
When people have too much say, it may lead to church splits.
When people have little to say, they are complacent; they don't challenge the pastor, teaching, heresy, whatever.
Unity is more like a triangle with God at the top, me at the bottom left and someone else at the bottom right. It really takes God to hold people together so that we can have unity.
The attitude that we don't have to get our theology straight, that we don't have to study or do systematic theology because we feel we have arrived when in fact we aren't taught is the problem.
The model is that we are mature Christians knowing right from wrong and fully functioning:
Hebrews 5:12 ¶ For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.
Hebrews 5:13 For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.
Hebrews 5:14 But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.
Hebrews 5:12-14 is the instruction for Christian maturity and when Christians can't teach a Bible study, they aren't mature.
We need elders that can work together and be mature.
I never submit my spirit to men, I submit to Christ and hence I submit to Christ in men if I recognize Christ is in them. So, we always should be submitting to Christ. On an earthly level I submit to authorities, but do not give over my soul and spirit to them, that belongs to God, alone. Too much false teaching about "submitting" to Christian "leaders". We always submit to Christ in spiritual matters, not men. Even when you endeavor to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace (Eph_4:3) with brethren you are submitting to Christ. It cannot be done any other way. Submission is tied very closely to suffering, to the Cross.
Submission is the key to harmony in human relationships but your Shepherd is always Jesus Christ. You never give over your spiritual man to men. If you do, you can no longer be led by the Lord.
Submission is the key to harmony in human relationships but your Shepherd is always Jesus Christ. You never give over your spiritual man to men. If you do, you can no longer be led by the Lord.
What about discipleship? What about being humble?Axehead said:
There is still a problem from various Christians with bad behavior which leads me to believe they aren't pastored and they are unbalanced.
I've seen a lot of ungodly things, a lot of hurtful things, a lot of destructive things by people who need correction. They idea they don't need to submit flies in the face of correction.
2 Peter 3:16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
Hebrews 10:25 Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.
Assembling is more than gathering. You can get lego pieces and assemble them with a rake but unless they fit together, they won't do anything. The person who says they won't submit to correction is not someone who gets assembled or fit rightly with everyone else.
2 Timothy 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
Those who won't listen to others will not be corrected by man.
And Jesus said to do and observe what others teach:
Matthew 23:2 Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat:
Matthew 23:3 All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.
And I believe it is going to get worse because of what scripture predicts.
@ Axehead ... my question to you is this ... what do you look for in a spiritual authority that causes you to identify Christ in that person ?
Is it their humility, their words (from their heart their mouth speaks), the faithfulness, their adherence to the word etc.
Christians tend to get wounded too easily if they're in the wrong and it's pointed out to them ... Proverbs tells us that iron sharpens
iron.
In all honesty there aren't a whole lot of Christians that want to be sharpened or submit to sharpening.
A word in truth from a spiritual authority can get a believer in a flat spin.
Take a good look at the instruction that Paul gave to Titus 1:12 - 13,
One of the Cretans, a prophet of their own, said, “Cretans are always liars, evil beasts, lazy gluttons.”
This testimony is true. Therefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith,
and in Titus 2:15 it says,
Declare these things; exhort and rebuke with all authority. Let no one disregard you.
As a Pastor try that in a church today and watch half the members walk out ... there is way too much pride and not enough humility in
the body of Christ today.
Christians tend to forget that Christianity is not a democracy, it is a Theocracy - God ordained and God ruled and He has set his authority
in men to govern.
Everyone is "growing" including the Pastor, he might not have arrived at that place of full maturity but that does not in any way make him
less qualified to lead, and neither does that mean that we can choose to submit to his authority because we find him in a current state
that might not be equal to ours ... he got the calling, he got the anointing and the office ... not us (well not yet), but that does not
disqualify him in any way to lead, instruct and rebuke.
Neither does it give us the right to nit-pick his character.
Humility, true humility, is to submit to the authority of God irrespective of how one may feel and God fully expects us to obey his commands.
This does not mean that the authority ordained by God can live a flagrant lifestyle.
So to expand on my question ... what if a member has a personality clash with the pastor, what then, in all probability that person will not
follow instruction.
That is rebellion pure and simple ... and rebellion is as witchcraft.
The reason we've got so many fruits, flakes and nuts (breakfast cereal Christians) out there, is a direct result of rebellion.
I am very cautious to level accusations or "search" for Christ in my spiritual authority other than to accept their leadership.
If they miss the mark as we all do, I don't pack my bags and head off to the church down the road ... I stick it out and most often they
recognise their mistake and repent ... that's maturity.
If it is a persistent error, then I will make my move but most bail out at the first sign of weakness.
Is it their humility, their words (from their heart their mouth speaks), the faithfulness, their adherence to the word etc.
Christians tend to get wounded too easily if they're in the wrong and it's pointed out to them ... Proverbs tells us that iron sharpens
iron.
In all honesty there aren't a whole lot of Christians that want to be sharpened or submit to sharpening.
A word in truth from a spiritual authority can get a believer in a flat spin.
Take a good look at the instruction that Paul gave to Titus 1:12 - 13,
One of the Cretans, a prophet of their own, said, “Cretans are always liars, evil beasts, lazy gluttons.”
This testimony is true. Therefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith,
and in Titus 2:15 it says,
Declare these things; exhort and rebuke with all authority. Let no one disregard you.
As a Pastor try that in a church today and watch half the members walk out ... there is way too much pride and not enough humility in
the body of Christ today.
Christians tend to forget that Christianity is not a democracy, it is a Theocracy - God ordained and God ruled and He has set his authority
in men to govern.
Everyone is "growing" including the Pastor, he might not have arrived at that place of full maturity but that does not in any way make him
less qualified to lead, and neither does that mean that we can choose to submit to his authority because we find him in a current state
that might not be equal to ours ... he got the calling, he got the anointing and the office ... not us (well not yet), but that does not
disqualify him in any way to lead, instruct and rebuke.
Neither does it give us the right to nit-pick his character.
Humility, true humility, is to submit to the authority of God irrespective of how one may feel and God fully expects us to obey his commands.
This does not mean that the authority ordained by God can live a flagrant lifestyle.
So to expand on my question ... what if a member has a personality clash with the pastor, what then, in all probability that person will not
follow instruction.
That is rebellion pure and simple ... and rebellion is as witchcraft.
The reason we've got so many fruits, flakes and nuts (breakfast cereal Christians) out there, is a direct result of rebellion.
I am very cautious to level accusations or "search" for Christ in my spiritual authority other than to accept their leadership.
If they miss the mark as we all do, I don't pack my bags and head off to the church down the road ... I stick it out and most often they
recognise their mistake and repent ... that's maturity.
If it is a persistent error, then I will make my move but most bail out at the first sign of weakness.
Hi Chuckt,Chuckt said:
What I said does no harm to discipleship or humility. On the contrary, the "Christian" with bad behavior is not submitting themselves to the Lord, so submitting to men won't help them any. A Christian, first and foremost must submit themselves to Christ who is continually disciplining them through His Spirit and His Word (if they let Him) Heb 12. Humility is the fruit of submitting to Christ, not men.
Remember, having humility and submitting to correction means submitting to Christ first. Our relationship to God is not through men, but rather Christ so if we are not in submission to God and His Word then that will be manifest in our behavior with men. Also, remember that having a spiritual title does not make one a spiritual authority. Spiritual authority is Christ Himself living in and through men. One cannot have spiritual authority apart from Christ. We need discernment in these things because if Christ is not manifest in someone's life then you should be wary about receiving spiritual things from them.
All the best,
Axehead
I find these types of discussions to be interesting.
One of the things I don't always see defined is what it means for Christ/Holy Spirit/etc. to be present in a man? I think a very obvious starting point is what the Bible says a Christian should be and do, and I think most of us agree on that. Yet, I see a number of people who advocate this view, but end up with a view of authority as being anyone they (personally) trust to be in authority, which means ultimately anyone who shares their beliefs.
I see this as a very purist notion, which I am not sure is what the Bible meant by discipleship. I think it laudable that people are indeed looking for Jesus. But isn't there only one of him? It seems like God had no issue taking disciples who did disagree from time to time, and still make them apostles. See the Jerusalem council for an example.\
Obviously the pastor in the OP was out of line, but does that invalidate all pastors?
For instance, the emphasis always seems to be on what the believer thinks of the pastor or teacher. What happened to the Bible judging us? What happened to God reforming us through his ministers?
One of the things I don't always see defined is what it means for Christ/Holy Spirit/etc. to be present in a man? I think a very obvious starting point is what the Bible says a Christian should be and do, and I think most of us agree on that. Yet, I see a number of people who advocate this view, but end up with a view of authority as being anyone they (personally) trust to be in authority, which means ultimately anyone who shares their beliefs.
I see this as a very purist notion, which I am not sure is what the Bible meant by discipleship. I think it laudable that people are indeed looking for Jesus. But isn't there only one of him? It seems like God had no issue taking disciples who did disagree from time to time, and still make them apostles. See the Jerusalem council for an example.\
Obviously the pastor in the OP was out of line, but does that invalidate all pastors?
For instance, the emphasis always seems to be on what the believer thinks of the pastor or teacher. What happened to the Bible judging us? What happened to God reforming us through his ministers?
Careful brother,Axehead said:
1 John 4:6 We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.
He that receiveth you receiveth me, and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me. Matthew 10:40
Matthew 25:40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
There are more examples.
Chuck
Chuckt said:
Yes, we need to be careful.
Joh_10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
1Co_11:1 Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ.
3Jn 1:11 Beloved, follow not that which is evil, but that which is good. He that doeth good is of God: but he that doeth evil hath not seen God.
The context of the previous verse is this:
3Jn 1:3 For I rejoiced greatly, when the brethren came and testified of the truth that is in thee, even as thou walkest in the truth.
3Jn 1:4 I have no greater joy than to hear that my children walk in truth.
3Jn 1:5 Beloved, thou doest faithfully whatsoever thou doest to the brethren, and to strangers;
3Jn 1:6 Which have borne witness of thy charity before the church: whom if thou bring forward on their journey after a godly sort, thou shalt do well:
3Jn 1:7 Because that for his name's sake they went forth, taking nothing of the Gentiles.
3Jn 1:8 We therefore ought to receive such, that we might be fellowhelpers to the truth.
3Jn 1:9 I wrote unto the church: but Diotrephes, who loveth to have the preeminence among them, receiveth us not.
3Jn 1:10 Wherefore, if I come, I will remember his deeds which he doeth, prating against us with malicious words: and not content therewith, neither doth he himself receive the brethren, and forbiddeth them that would, and casteth them out of the church.
We are not to surround ourselves with people we agree with or who agree with us, but with people that walk in the truth.
Axehead said:
Well said. It reminds me of this:
John
18:36 Yehshua answered, “My kingdom is not out of this world; if my kingdom were out of this world, my subordinates who were with me would have agonized in order that I should not be delivered up to the Jews; however, now my kingdom is not from here.”
18:37 Then Pilate said to him, “You are therefore not a king?” Yehshua answered, “You say that I am a king. I have been engendered to this [nation] and to this [Praitorion]; I have come to the world in order that I might testify to the truth. Everyone who is being out of the truth hears my voice.”
18:38 Pilate says to him, “What is the truth?” And having said ‘What is the truth?’, he exited again unto the Jews, and says to them, “I find not even one case [of guilt] in him.
18:39 However, it is an accustomed convention to you in order that I might release to you one [bound] on the Passover. Do you prefer then [that] I release to you the king of the Jews?”
"What is the truth?" Pilate asked, but he didn't wait to hear Christ's answer. Perhaps most, if not all, of "us" (Christians? The church? Believers?) thought we already knew/learned the answer/truth (that will free "us") from among us/ourselves.
Cheerio, bro.
[SIZE=16pt]After Jesus taught me about him, and I saw that my church was not teaching God’s Word, I asked Jesus how to stay submitted to my church.[/SIZE]shturt678s said:
[SIZE=16pt]Jesus told me to cooperate with, not to fight, but that I was no longer to be under my churches headship.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt]Jesus is my head, and only him do I follow[/SIZE]
This single feminine noun/word, episynagoge is assembling together. You need to: either learn Greek or change your personal Bible version. You must have thought that Paul was referring to the "church." Well, if you really want to know what place is this/that, you need to examine these first:Chuckt said:
1) What/Who is/are Hebrews? (Catholics/Christians/Muslims/Hindus?)
2) When was this epistle written? (Before or after the first [Roman/Christian] church was built?)
3) Try reading this episynagoge word aloud, and try to hear [through] yourself/Him. (He calls/elects, not me. Wink wink, nudge nudge!)
Cheer bro!
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