Submit oneself to the Pastor, Magesterium, Word, or ?

[shturt678s]

I know this issue has been beat to death, however......

As a new Christian long ago, in my denominational setting.....in all seriousness....a right on Pastor murdered his wife and children to be with another woman....I accessed his interview with investigators months later while he was in prison. He was so sorry, yet in me, how could a Pastor do such a thing...even think about it...etc.and etc.??? Still don't understand it???

Sorry my brothers....with other examples, I place myself under the Word only, in our Church setting.

Actually don't mind submitting ourselves to one another in Church in humility...works.

 

[RANDOR]

He was just a man....as David....we will never understand...........it's to bad he didn't have Ol Jack to talk to before he committed mans sins.
But God still loves that man...as much as you and I. The heathens will want him hung......the Lord wants him to repent.

OH WHAT LOVE OUR LORD HAS FOR US. AMEN †

 

[Tex]

We are the Church, the bride of Christ. I would go by what is said about a wife's duty to a husband.

We are to be subject to righteousness, which is contained in the bible, in church doctrine, and in a pastor. However, we need to have humility with how perfect our biblical interpretations are, how perfect our church doctrines are, and how perfect our pastor may be.

 

[RANDOR]

We are the Church, the bride of Christ. I would go by what is said about a wife's duty to a husband.

We are to be subject to righteousness, which is contained in the bible, in church doctrine, and in a pastor. However, we need to have humility with how perfect our biblical interpretations are, how perfect our church doctrines are, and how perfect our pastor may be.

Amen Tex...................amen

 

[shturt678s]

He was just a man....as David....we will never understand...........it's to bad he didn't have Ol Jack to talk to before he committed mans sins.
But God still loves that man...as much as you and I. The heathens will want him hung......the Lord wants him to repent.

OH WHAT LOVE OUR LORD HAS FOR US. AMEN †

You nailed it and brought it home!

Amen,

Old Jack

We are the Church, the bride of Christ. I would go by what is said about a wife's duty to a husband.

We are to be subject to righteousness, which is contained in the bible, in church doctrine, and in a pastor. However, we need to have humility with how perfect our biblical interpretations are, how perfect our church doctrines are, and how perfect our pastor may be.

Thank you for your response!

I give our Pastor "1" hour on Sunday (he was also under pressure to cut the services down from the whole "1.5" hours to the "1") then under the Word the rest of the 24/7 thus loosely agree with your response. You folks shed more light on the issue, allowing me to see the bigger picture....thank you!

Old Jack

 

[This Vale Of Tears]

I know this issue has been beat to death, however......

As a new Christian long ago, in my denominational setting.....in all seriousness....a right on Pastor murdered his wife and children to be with another woman....I accessed his interview with investigators months later while he was in prison. He was so sorry, yet in me, how could a Pastor do such a thing...even think about it...etc.and etc.??? Still don't understand it???

Sorry my brothers....with other examples, I place myself under the Word only, in our Church setting.

Actually don't mind submitting ourselves to one another in Church in humility...works.

The word tells you to submit to earthly spiritual authority (Hebrews 13:17)

I don't know how this sad anecdote is somehow the linchpin by which you form your doctrinal views, but it's a bad method. For the most part, pastors aren't murdering their families or doing anything bad or illegal.

The underlying problem that I've alluded to repeatedly is rebellion. As people rebelled against Moses, so too do Christians today rebel against the leaders God raised up and as irksome as it sounds, they use the Bible as an excuse, or in your case, a story about a bad pastor. Any excuse will do. I'm beginning to think that Aspen is right, that rebellion is deeply seated within Protestantism, so much so that you don't even see it for yourselves.

 

[RANDOR]

Not rebelling against the pastor who did all the shootin.........I'm rebelling against the one he listened to...satan.

 

[shturt678s]

The word tells you to submit to earthly spiritual authority (Hebrews 13:17)

I don't know how this sad anecdote is somehow the linchpin by which you form your doctrinal views, but it's a bad method. For the most part, pastors aren't murdering their families or doing anything bad or illegal.

The underlying problem that I've alluded to repeatedly is rebellion. As people rebelled against Moses, so too do Christians today rebel against the leaders God raised up and as irksome as it sounds, they use the Bible as an excuse, or in your case, a story about a bad pastor. Any excuse will do. I'm beginning to think that Aspen is right, that rebellion is deeply seated within Protestantism, so much so that you don't even see it for yourselves.

Thank you Vale! Many many bad Pastors, however they were politically correct.

btw that Pastor was only the tip of the iceberg, that is, one recently got the board to approve a loan against the Church property for the tune of 10K...he legally took off with the money and board members each took their turns apologizing for placing themselves below the Pastor signing off on the loan...lots of tears...then there's more and more examples in the Protestant settings...can give you exact location, time, and etc. the repeated crimes against our Lord occurred. However there are a few valid Pastors out there thus let's go with the glass half full with brother RANDOR...bubbling over.

Maybe in the RCC settings different, and perfect before our Lord...I seriously don't know?

Like I said I place myself under the Pastor signing no papers for the whole 3,600 seconds on Sunday which isn't that bad my brother? During the rest of the 82,800 seconds under the Sola Scriptura.

Old Jack

 

[lforrest]

Hebrews 13:17 assumes your leaders keep watch over you. If that is not their intention you should not listen to them.

 

[This Vale Of Tears]

Hebrews 13:17 assumes your leaders keep watch over you. If that is not their intention you should not listen to them.

Fine. But when somebody has a pattern of church hopping and continually finds themselves at odds with the pastor, it's more likely that the problem isn't the pastor.

 

[Tex]

Fine. But when somebody has a pattern of church hopping and continually finds themselves at odds with the pastor, it's more likely that the problem isn't the pastor.

True, but this problem is with the whole Church, not just protestants. It's not so much a rebellion either as it is a selfcentered-ness. People think that everything they do should be in total adherence to their own wants. This includes all things, including church attendance.

 

[shturt678s]

Hebrews 13:17 assumes your leaders keep watch over you. If that is not their intention you should not listen to them.

You got it! He received his doctorate also, and more caring for his flock than any pastor before...just took off with the money with a new start in Texas the last I heard. I guess you could consider this one small costly shortcoming...the Church still trying to pay off the second mortgage.

I guess the rule is listen to what I say, and not do as I do?

I don't know?

Old Jack, sitting on his flat wallet in church...pick pockets around also?

 

[Wormwood]

I believe that if we truly place ourselves under the Word, then we must also put ourselves under the spiritual authority of our pastor/elders. I agree with sola scriptura in that we should not follow any leader who would guide people in a direction contrary to God's expressed commands. However, the Scriptures themselves command us to put ourselves under the authority of church leadership. If we fail to do this, then we are resisting both the spiritual authority of the church as well as the Scriptures.

For this reason, people should take great caution when evaluating and placing themselves under the authority of any church leadership. They should get to know those leaders, evaluate their teachings in light of the Word of God and pay attention to their lives to what little degree they can. Then, when they have found a church leadership they feel is genuine and committed to following God's Word, they should place their membership in that church and submit to its leadership. I find that many today only "submit" to spiritual authorities when they agree with the authorities. This is not submission. We should never violate any expressed command of Scripture, but we should be willing to submit. Even when a pastor or church leader falls morally, hopefully (if it is structured in a biblical way) the other leaders will address the issue in a Christ-like way to bring about an appropriate resolution and move the church forward. So, even when there is a moral failing, if the leadership as a whole is sound, a person can still be subject to the other leaders. The church is bigger than any one pastor...and if it is not...then I would recommend a person not be a part of that local church.

 

[Trekson]

Interestingly enough, there is not one single scripture that actually declares the "church" is the bride of Christ. That is an assumption started centuries ago based on misinterpreted scriptures and a lack of knowledge from those who think they know who the bride of Christ is.

 

[Tex]

Interestingly enough, there is not one single scripture that actually declares the "church" is the bride of Christ. That is an assumption started centuries ago based on misinterpreted scriptures and a lack of knowledge from those who think they know who the bride of Christ is.

Ummm.... Ephesians 5:25-27

Husbands, love your wives, as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her, that he might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word, so that he might present the church to himself in splendor, without spot or wrinkle or any such thing, that she might be holy and without blemish.

 

[shturt678s]

I believe that if we truly place ourselves under the Word, then we must also put ourselves under the spiritual authority of our pastor/elders. I agree with sola scriptura in that we should not follow any leader who would guide people in a direction contrary to God's expressed commands. However, the Scriptures themselves command us to put ourselves under the authority of church leadership. If we fail to do this, then we are resisting both the spiritual authority of the church as well as the Scriptures.

For this reason, people should take great caution when evaluating and placing themselves under the authority of any church leadership. They should get to know those leaders, evaluate their teachings in light of the Word of God and pay attention to their lives to what little degree they can. Then, when they have found a church leadership they feel is genuine and committed to following God's Word, they should place their membership in that church and submit to its leadership. I find that many today only "submit" to spiritual authorities when they agree with the authorities. This is not submission. We should never violate any expressed command of Scripture, but we should be willing to submit. Even when a pastor or church leader falls morally, hopefully (if it is structured in a biblical way) the other leaders will address the issue in a Christ-like way to bring about an appropriate resolution and move the church forward. So, even when there is a moral failing, if the leadership as a whole is sound, a person can still be subject to the other leaders. The church is bigger than any one pastor...and if it is not...then I would recommend a person not be a part of that local church.

I thought that was perfectly brought forward...not that I didn't try to find fault!

Scripturally sound!

Old Jack

Interestingly enough, there is not one single scripture that actually declares the "church" is the bride of Christ. That is an assumption started centuries ago based on misinterpreted scriptures and a lack of knowledge from those who think they know who the bride of Christ is.

Thank you for your response!

The Lamb's wedding starts with His forthcoming "1" Parousia. He comes to take His "bride" home for the heavenly feast, and celebration, viz., the Church, Una-Sancta. No supposed future millennial.

Old Jack

 

[rockytopva]

But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God. - 1 Cor 11:3

I would think real hard before putting much trust in a man these days.

 

[Trekson]

Hi Tex, The key word is the 5th one, "as". It is a metaphor and nothing more.

Hi Shturt, 1. Christ is the Lamb...Yes!
2. There will be a wedding...Yes!
3. The church will be in attendance....Yes!

The wedding will be on earth, shortly after the sheep and goat judgement, imo.
The bride is not the church! In none of Christ's parables depicting a wedding, is the church considered the bride. We are either guests, friends of the bridegroom or attendants of the bride.

 

[Wormwood]

Trekson,

Do you have any texts to back your assertions and give specifics about who this bride is? I think whether the passage in Ephesians is metaphorical or not (which could be said also of the parables and images in Revelation), its clear that Paul views the church and Christ as the ultimate meaning and purpose of God's design for marriage and the union of a man and woman. This seems to be the point Paul is making in Ephesians.

Also, I think any view that puts the Church as spectators or back-seat participants in God's working and plan in the world is very biblical unsound. In my estimation, the NT very strongly gives the opposite impression...namely that the Church is the focal point of all of God's plans and purposes in Christ.

Finally, Jesus' wedding parables do not focus hardly at all on the identity of the bride. They are almost exclusively centered on the Son/bridegroom and his preeminent role in God's plans. In any event, I think reading too much into the parables of Jesus other than the main punch of the story usually results in very questionable forms of allegorizing.

 

[Tex]

Hi Tex, The key word is the 5th one, "as". It is a metaphor and nothing more.

Hi Shturt, 1. Christ is the Lamb...Yes!
2. There will be a wedding...Yes!
3. The church will be in attendance....Yes!

The wedding will be on earth, shortly after the sheep and goat judgement, imo.
The bride is not the church! In none of Christ's parables depicting a wedding, is the church considered the bride. We are either guests, friends of the bridegroom or attendants of the bride.

Metaphors aren't inherently false. Yes, I am a male and Jesus is male. I am not his bride in that sense. So, Paul uses a metaphor to correctly call us Jesus' bride. We inherit salvation through a bond to God. Marriage equally entitles inheritance through a bond. If a woman marries a king, she becomes royalty too. That is Paul's point. We are not literally the bride of Christ because then we would have to have sex with Jesus. No one actually think that. Of course it's a metaphor. There are lots of metaphors used. They are wonderful teaching tools.