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Featured Subtracting Works

Discussion in 'Christian Theology Forum' started by Phoneman777, Jun 29, 2019.

  1. Phoneman777

    Phoneman777 Well-Known Member

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    How do we harmonize Scriptures which teach the plain truth that we are saved by grace through faith which is not of ourselves, but a gift from God, not of works, lest any man should boast - with many other Scriptures which apparently teach salvation is also, to one degree or another, by works?

    Do we throw these others out?

    Do we discredit certain authors, as Martin Luther once discredited James?

    Do we adopt a Dispensationalist view which says James wrote to this one, John to that one, and Paul to the others?

    No, we recognize that appearances mean nothing, be mature enough to accept what the whole counsel of Scripture when taken together reveals, and ask God for grace to accept and live by what is an extremely unpopular truth - that we are saved by grace through faith, but judged by our works, because works are the evidence that we've been saved by grace through faith.
     
    Last edited: Jun 29, 2019
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  2. Episkopos

    Episkopos Well-Known Member

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    There is another thread where we are discussing the dialectic.

    People tend to see the bible on the same surface level as any other book. But one can't read the bible that way. There is more depth to it.

    Being saved by grace through faith means that we walk in the Spirit (something impossible for people to try doing of themselves) in a walk that is already perfected by the humanity of Jesus while on this planet. We thus are partakers of His life, and His holiness. How do we enter into that world? By faith. So then the spiritual realm is a refuge away from sin and this world. It is a walk that Jesus crafted for us to walk in. It is called "the Way".

    But then as we walk in that supernatural power...we will do things that can only be done from THAT place. So then the works will also be spiritual. Walking as Jesus walked. Loving as Jesus loved. Speaking as Jesus spoke. Suffering as Jesus suffered. We will be doing all things in the fellowship of Christ. And these will be attributed to us by our faithfulness and righteousness to allow these things to displace what we would have normally done without God.

    And in this is a great reward. The gospel is actually about glory. Our works will actually have been God working through us. To His glory. So then grace is only attributed to us in judgment by what we do with that grace. Did we pass it on to others? Or did we allow ourselves to be puffed up so as to judge others who were less gifted?

    No one is judged for having received a gift...but against that gift. What did we do with it?

    So we will only be judged by our works...which will either justify us or condemn us.
     
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  3. Phoneman777

    Phoneman777 Well-Known Member

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    So then, if our works condemn us, to what fate are we condemned?
     
  4. Episkopos

    Episkopos Well-Known Member

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    If we as believers overstep ourselves and allow our own actions to overshadow the actions of the Spirit of Christ that is a potential in every believer to follow because of His seed in us...rejection from the beloved yet still saved into the nations to be ruled over by the saints...and in extreme cases a rejection into outer darkness for ever. There will be weeping and complaining.
     
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  5. CNKW3

    CNKW3 Active Member

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    Most people appeal to Eph 2:8,9 which you mention above. Titus 3:5 is a parallel verse with Eph. They teach the same thing by the same writer but give a little different info.
    If you include Titus 3:5 with Eph 2: 8,9 you can know what “works” he has in mind..
    Titus 3:5 explains what kind of “works” are under consideration. It is works of righteousness that we have done. Our own righteousness. Good deeds. Giving to charity, being kind to our neighbor, working at volunteer jobs, taking in orphans, etc. People believe that “good people” are going to heaven. This is all works of righteousness that we do.
    This idea would also include submitting to doctrines not found in the word of God. Like claiming you can be saved while you are all by yourself. Just crying, praying and asking for forgiveness.

    In Rom 10 Paul helps us understand..
    Romans 10:2-3 For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge. For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.
    Make no mistake, we are to do WORKS in order to be accepted by God. Works of Gods righteousness not ours..
    Acts 10:35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.
    1 John 3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
    You want to be righteous? Then you’re going to have DO or WORK righteousness. Not your own stemming from your own will, but do what God has said in his word.

    Matthew 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
    Here’s the person all alone on their bed for salvation.
    If you want to enter the kingdom you must DO the will of the father. That will can ONLY be found in the NT.

    John 6:27 Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed.
    Do you want everlasting life? Then Jesus says you will need to LABOR or WORK for it.
    This teaching of NO WORKS salvation is from the devil. He has had great success in deceiving the masses.
     
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  6. Phoneman777

    Phoneman777 Well-Known Member

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    Somebody gets it. We're supposed to do good works "for God hath before ordained that we should walk in them" which is that pesky verse 10 before which Antinomianists love to stop short.

    If only silly Antinomianists would just believe the Bible when it says "the carnal mind...is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be", but instead they keep insisting others who, unlike them, keep God's commandments are still carnal. Only a converted person can do good works - the "good works" that carnally minded people do are not such, but are a cloak to hide their true nature.
     
  7. ScottA

    ScottA Well-Known Member

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    There are no "other Scriptures which apparently teach salvation is also, to one degree or another, by works." They all can be explained without contradiction.

    Any such discrepancies are due to misunderstanding, and relying upon ones own thoughts and understanding. Such thoughts do not explain the higher thoughts of God, they speak against it...which is to say, they speak against God. But who can receive the things of God, except the spirit of God be in him? Shall we then attempt to reason among men? We should, but in order to go beyond the logic and understanding of men, we must seek God first. Those who do will come to know the truth.
     
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  8. Episkopos

    Episkopos Well-Known Member

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    Phoneman777 is right.

    The word states that it is by works that the righteous are saved. Look closely at Mat. 25 sheep/goats judgment. What was the criteria for salvation?

    The works done to the lest of Christ's brethren.

    These were not believers themselves...but were justified by their treatment of such.

    So you can't put all the eggs in one basket and say you understand the manifold judgment of God for all people in every situation. That is making things simplistic...and religious.

    It is the DOERS of the law that are justified. And they who obey the Lord are building on a rock...a solid foundation. And what is that rock? The works of obedience to God's words.
     
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  9. ScottA

    ScottA Well-Known Member

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    One at a time.

    No...the sheep and the goats parable does not address the issue of salvation, but rather that there are goats among those who are saved, which are not saved. If you look away from the issue at heart, you will see what is not there. But if you look only to salvation, men do not save themselves.

    As for "DOERS of the law", it is not the doing of the law that saves - for the law could not save Romans 8:3. You have the cart before the horse. But rather, the one who is first saved has attained the law fulfilled by Christ, by which he then keeps it.
     
  10. Episkopos

    Episkopos Well-Known Member

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    Not at all. That doesn't even make any sense. This is not a judgment of the church. Jesus calls the ones who were helped (or not) MY brethren...not YOUR brethren. All the nations will be gathered for judgment. None of these are Christians. It is the world...not God's house being judged. There are 2 resurrections and 2 judgments. The first is for the household of God. The second for the nations.

    You are doing as you say I'm doing. You are adding in your ideas because you only have a very narrow view of the will of God concerning all creation. It's OK to not see the whole plan. everything doesn't fit into a little box.

    Those who do rightly will be justified by God. Those who receive a righteous man in the name of a righteous man will receive a righteous man's reward.

    No need to get religious about it. ;)

    They who obey the commandments will be justified. Those who break the commandments will not be justified...unless they repent...stop judging..and embrace humility.

    Religious beliefs have nothing to do with judgment. It is by works ALONE. We will all be judged by what we have done with what we have been given.
     
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  11. ScottA

    ScottA Well-Known Member

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    That is not what the parable says...

    It says "all the nations", not all the nations except Israel. The word pertains to all.

    How is it then that you call me "narrow" and "religious" when I quoted as it is written? Is it not you who is being narrow by leaving out God's people, to say nothing of you adding what is not there?
     
  12. Episkopos

    Episkopos Well-Known Member

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    The house of God has already passed through judgment by the time the GWT judgment comes around. 1,000 years before. The Bema seat judgment.

    So you are mixing in two judgments into one.

    Judgment begins at the house of God.

    Israel as a nation would have already been judged along with the church. What is left are they that are NOT in the household of God and these are judged by how they treated the brethren of Christ. By their works. They who showed mercy, will be shown mercy. People will reap as they have sown. They who did not show mercy will not receive mercy. Just as Jesus plainly taught.
     
  13. Enoch111

    Enoch111 Well-Known Member

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    It is significant that this passage continues as follows: For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

    God planned all along for those who were justified by grace to maintain good works. Good works do not save. They prove you are saved. If you lack good works, then you did not have saving faith to begin with, as James makes it crystal clear.
     
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  14. ScottA

    ScottA Well-Known Member

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    You are mistaking the chronology of the way it is written as different times of judgement for each, but the day of judgement is one day.

    As for those who show mercy and the teachings of Jesus, no one comes to Christ unless the Father draws them. Such mercy is of the Father...not the person. Those of whom the Father does not draw are condemned already.

    Both matters were before the foundation of the world. This world and the assumed chronology, are simply what is written. Thus, the things that are manifest in the world come in their time, but not so the things of God.

    So...I won't say you are wrong, only wrong in context. It is better to think as God thinks, than to think as men think.
     
    Last edited: Jun 29, 2019
  15. Phoneman777

    Phoneman777 Well-Known Member

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    Early on today, the devil started putting sinful thoughts in my head. Though the temptation was intense, I was reminded to "forget not His benefits" and to "grieve not the Holy Spirit", so I called out to God to chase both those thoughts and the devil away.

    Antinomianists like HR would characterize that as "legalism" - trying to earn salvation - and insist that if I knew the true freedom in Christ that He offers, I would just go on and indulge the sin an be confident that as a child of God, that sin is covered by Jesus' blood. Is there any more a ridiculous doctrine than that? I wonder if HR's significant other would buy that argument if HR got busted in bed with another person: "Hey, darlin', why you trying to make me earn your love by not taking this hottie home with me from the bar to have a little boom chicka wow wow????"
     
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  16. Episkopos

    Episkopos Well-Known Member

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    It's just that believers are not judged along with the world. There is a different standard to grace than to the law.

    1 Cor. 5:12 What business of mine is it to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside?

    There is a judgment for those who are inside the church...according to holiness. And there is a judgment for the world...according to righteousness.

    I realize that modern teachings have so little accuracy that such a statement appears to not make sense...until you do a very deep study on the matter and seek for God's revelation on the matter.

    But to they who have been granted to see beyond the confines of a subjective experience for themselves...the truth is so obvious.

    One must comprehend more than one aspect of God's will...there is the depth, the height, the width, and length. Most believers are happy with one or two of these dimensions...since it covers their own experience. But to judge righteously one needs the whole revelation of Christ...and the full measure of grace.

    So then God judges according to what we have been given. Not against what He has not given to us.

    I think the whole church needs a lesson in what righteousness is. There is too much being built on a faulty understanding.
     
    Last edited: Jun 30, 2019
  17. Episkopos

    Episkopos Well-Known Member

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    There are many spiritual believers that don't understand how God will judge the world...outside the church.

    Some will read about the BEMA judgment in 1 Cor. 3....and assume ALL people will be saved...even as through fire.

    But this is to mistake the judgment of God's house with that of the world.

    So then if a person only sees one judgment...then one must assume that no one will be cast into the lake of fire. One must then become a universalist. (An error of course)

    And then more errors are built on that error...like that there is a separate judgment for ministers away from the church...which is such a stretch....ridiculous even.

    people will try every possible way to avoid the truth. That is in human nature. So I expect it...even from fervent believers.

    The truth is presented in an obscure kind of way in order to confuse the surface seekers who look for self-righteousness...so that they condemn themselves in their condemnation of others.

    Judge not the world! Lest you be judged along with them.

    We are not to judge they that are without the church.

    But we are to judge they that are within...by the Spirit.

    These are held to the higher standard of a different KIND of life. The life of the Spirit.

    Anyone who can't see that distinction has no understanding of the things of God and needs to be taught.
     
    Last edited: Jun 30, 2019
  18. firstthings1st.

    firstthings1st. Well-Known Member

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    Romans 8, King James Version (KJV) | The Bible App
     
  19. ScottA

    ScottA Well-Known Member

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    The principles that you are voicing are the effects of the double edged sword of God, and rightly dividing the word of truth.

    The day of judgement is indeed one day, but it is the double edged sword that makes it appear to be more than one judgement. There is one judgement but it is only the outcome for those under judgement that is different. The standard is the same, as is the day and the hour.

    Rightly dividing the word of truth is to rightfully perceive the manifold revelations of God while maintaining that God is One. Though many things are written, there is only "one Lord, one faith, one baptism; one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all." Which is to say that our experience and the way we experience things in the world on a timeline, is not the actual truth of God, but only the truth as it is written and experienced over time. So then, when we read of "the Lamb slain before the foundation of the world" that appeared to happen also on a day in history, and that "today is the day of salvation", meaning perhaps any day; with God it is actually all one [day], and it only appears to be at different times by how it is written and revealed in the world. Thus, what we read, whether the words are confounded by one tongue compared to another or not, the words tell of what we experience in the world, but also the actual truth pertaining only to the kingdom. It is important then for lambs to read the word and believe according to the message delivered to the world; but for sheep (the mature) to see and hear (if they have eyes and ears) to see and hear also what the Spirit says, to rightly divide the word by what is written under darkness, compared to what is only under light and pertaining only to the kingdom. But mixing the two puts both out of context. "For what fellowship has righteousness with lawlessness? And what communion has light with darkness?"

    For both reasons, and for a lack of understanding that both are two different contexts, many errors are made. We see that a lot here.
     
  20. Ernest T. Bass

    Ernest T. Bass Active Member

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    It needs to be understood that "not of works" of Ephesians 2:9 does not eliminate obedience to God's will. It does eliminate the idea that man can do his own works and save himself and thereby merit his own salvation. A man could boast about such good, perfect work in saving himself by himself.

    Yet many verses require obedience to God to be saved, Hebrews 5:9; Acts of the Apostles 10:35; Philippians 2:12. Yet man's obedience will not be perfect, therefore he cannot merit salvation nor have anything to boast about in his obedience. Luke 17:10 it is man's duty to obey God but he willl not be perfect in his obedience and still be an unprofitable servant in need of grace. Grace fills the gap when man sins and does not do as he is suppose to do in obeying God's will.

    So works required by the law of Moses, works of merit will not save and have been eliminated by Paul but no NT writer ever eliminated faithful obedience to GOd's will but rather included and required it.

    In Romans 6, Paul shows that even though we are saved by grace, yet 'grace only" will not save. Paul goes on to point out in Romans 6:16 that we are all serving one of two masters, we are serving either:

    1) sin unto death
    or
    2) obedience unto righteouness

    If one is not obeying God's will, then he is serving "sin unto death" and grace does not save those serving sin unto death. Yet grace will save those who are serving "obedience unto righteousness". So obeying God's will is necessary to keep one serving 'obedience unto righteousness' for not obeying God's will has one serving sin unto death.

    So salvation is by God's grace AND man's obedience. Hence grace and obedience are not antagonistic one to each other but go together as hand in glove.
     
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