1. Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Featured Subtracting Works

Discussion in 'Christian Theology Forum' started by Phoneman777, Jun 29, 2019.

  1. Phoneman777

    Phoneman777 Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    4,656
    Likes Received:
    1,483
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    I fully agree with everything you said, but I think the part about "verses require obedience to God to be saved" needs to be qualified, seeing a person has no hope of fulfilling the least of God's commandments while he is yet unsaved, according to Romans 8:7.

    I think we are saying the same thing if I put it like this: Obedience is the unavoidable, inseparable consequence of salvation...the lack of which being the evidence we are yet unsaved.
     
    brakelite likes this.
  2. Ernest T. Bass

    Ernest T. Bass Active Member

    Messages:
    691
    Likes Received:
    235
    Obedience is a CONSEQUENCE of one being saved, but obedience is also necessary IN ORDER TO BE saved.

    Some will claim one is FIRST saved THEN one obeys as a consequence of being saved, but as Paul said, one serves "obedience UNTO righteousness" and NOT "obedience because one already is righteous". Obedience leads one to salvation.
     
  3. Phoneman777

    Phoneman777 Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    4,656
    Likes Received:
    1,483
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    Romans 8:7 says it's impossible for the unsaved to obey. The solution lies somewhre in the middle
     
  4. Nancy

    Nancy Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    6,540
    Likes Received:
    7,388
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    Second judgement for Ministers?? o_O I'd love to know how they back that one up! Yes, they will be held to a higher standard than one who does not teach, and we will be held accountable if we teach another error.
    "But we are to judge they that are within...by the Spirit."
    Yes indeed, and rightly so! After, of course, we ask Him to search our own hearts first, lol. Seems to me that the Church's of this day and age lack enormously in Spiritual things, especially humility. I would venture to guess that the majority of Christians that I know personally, would not receive correction very well, no matter how lovingly put :(
     
  5. Ernest T. Bass

    Ernest T. Bass Active Member

    Messages:
    691
    Likes Received:
    235
    Romans 8:5-7 a person chooses which he puts he mind on, whether the flesh or spirit. People ae not locked in to only focusing their attention on the flesh but people can choose to mind things of the spirit as those in Acts 2.

    In Acts 2, those whom Peter preached to were unsaved, yet while in their unsaved, spiritually dead state they were willing and able to listen to Peter, understand what he preached, be pricked in the heart, ask what the must do and obey what Peter commanded them in verse 38.

    Again, Paul said "obedience unto righteousness" and not "obedience because one already is righteous".
     
  6. Phoneman777

    Phoneman777 Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    4,656
    Likes Received:
    1,483
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    And that's where the answer lies: choice. Which, as I constantly preach in here to our Antinomianist friends, is not works, but thought. When we make the cognitive choice to do God's will, it is then that conversion takes place and power is imparted to us to get the obedience accomplished.

    Therefore, we get zero credit for the obedience He empowers us to accomplish as surely as the weight lifter gets zero credit for that final rep that is made only by the help of his Spotter.
     
    brakelite and Nancy like this.
  7. Phoneman777

    Phoneman777 Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    4,656
    Likes Received:
    1,483
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    Everybody wants to be a saint in heaven, but nobody wants to be a saint down here...ESPECIALLY dem shady preachers :)
     
    stunnedbygrace and Nancy like this.
  8. Nancy

    Nancy Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    6,540
    Likes Received:
    7,388
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    Sadly, agreed.
     
    Phoneman777 likes this.
  9. Nancy

    Nancy Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    6,540
    Likes Received:
    7,388
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    It seems to me that submission really is the starting point of all of our growth, trust, faith. To obey is better than sacrifice! I cannot say that I know any Christians that would claim that they are free to sin in ANY way, much less morally, that should be a given even among the un-believers.
    And, why do so many of us equate "obedience" with, "boring", "a chore" (which, IMHO, chore=works) or as anything negative, when God tells us clearly that
    "Thou wilt shew me the path of life: in thy presence is fullness of joy; at thy right hand there are pleasures for evermore." Psalm 16:11

    God will bless in all ways, if we obey. Not to earn salvation! But to live in Him. He will lead you to wise decisions that will last a lifetime if you let Him! Hear Him! I am not there yet but am striving to be.
    Sry I derailed :rolleyes:


    "Jesus was ready to give this woman, who was a slave to sin, running water. “Whoever drinks of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall become in him a well of water springing up to eternal life”
    John 4:14
    His cup stays full for our EVERY need. When we obey, good things start to happen in our lives. Not that bad won't too - but when
     
  10. Phoneman777

    Phoneman777 Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    4,656
    Likes Received:
    1,483
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    Isn't it weird sometimes we think we'll just die if we don't give in to sin? I mean literally die, we want it so bad. But, if we just pray for power to resist and for God to captivate our thoughts, that irresistible temptation passes and we recover and then we're all like..."well, how silly of me...I guess it wasn't all life or death after all..." :)
     
    brakelite and Nancy like this.
  11. Nancy

    Nancy Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    6,540
    Likes Received:
    7,388
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    Yes! For sure! And, that is exactly how it is when we have open minds and humble hearts :)
     
    brakelite and Phoneman777 like this.
  12. Ernest T. Bass

    Ernest T. Bass Active Member

    Messages:
    691
    Likes Received:
    235
    It is about what one chooses to set his mind TO DO. Those that choose to mind things of the flesh will do works of the flesh Galatians 5:19. Those that choose to mind things of the Spirit will walk after the Spirit Galatians 5:16.
    Romans 8:1 "There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit." "Walking" is what one does, how one lives and not a mere mental thought and nothing more. Those that choose to mind things of the Spirit will obey the things the Spirit has written in His word, walk by that word ie "walk in the light" 1 John 1:7.

    Man is not born totally depraved leaving him powerless to obey God unless God first acts on him in some miraculous way enabling him to obey.
    God has given man commands to follow and men choose to obey them or not. Those that have chosen to set their mind on the flesh will not walk after God's commands but will walk after the flesh doing works of the flesh. The commands God has given man imply man has both ability and accountability to obey.
     
  13. Phoneman777

    Phoneman777 Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    4,656
    Likes Received:
    1,483
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    Romans 8:7 says, "For the carnal mind is enmity with God. It is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be." Which of the following positions agrees with Romans 8:7 (please check one):

    [ ] Your position: An unconverted, carnally minded man can obey God's law while yet unconverted.

    [ ] My position: An unconverted, carnally minded man cannot obey God's law under any circumstance, except he be converted.
     
    Last edited: Jul 9, 2019
    Nancy likes this.
  14. Enoch111

    Enoch111 Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    6,951
    Likes Received:
    4,907
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    Canada
    Read Romans 2:6-16.
    14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the Law, do by nature the things contained in the Law, these, having not the Law, are a law unto themselves:
    15 Which shew the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another...
     
    Nancy likes this.
  15. brakelite

    brakelite Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    5,290
    Likes Received:
    3,516
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    Australia
    Problem one. Disobedience.
    Cure one. The promise of a Saviour.
    Problem one continues despite the promise.
    Promise becomes a reality. He "who shall save His people from their sins (disobedience)" arrives.
    Problem one continues despite the promises of the Saviour,
    KJV John 14
    13 And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be g lorified in the Son.
    14 If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.
    15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.
    Could that be simply because God's people do not want to obey and therefore don't bother asking for that power that enables them to do it?
    Problem two. God's people excuse their continuing sin by claiming that despite the fact that mankind lost everything due to disobedience, Jesus death means mankind can now gain everything while still in a state of disobedience.
    "Even if I sin and walk away from God, I am still saved."
     
    Nancy likes this.
  16. Ernest T. Bass

    Ernest T. Bass Active Member

    Messages:
    691
    Likes Received:
    235
    A person who chooses to mind things of the flesh and continues to mind things of the flesh will reject things of God. Yet there is nothing in the context that says it is impossible for a fleshly minded person to change from that life of serving the flesh to a life of serving God. 1 Corinthians 6:9-11 those Paul writes to in Corinth "were" minding things of the flesh but are now washed, justified, sanctified. Paul is simply pointing out in Romans 8:7 that one cannot serve both God and mammon at the same time (Matthew 6:24) therefore man must choose one or the other to serve.

    And since man can choose whom he will serve implies man is NOT born with a totally depraved nature preventing him from choosing to serve God. Those who mind the flesh are subject to 'condemnation' (Romans 8:1), so God holds them accountable for their choosing to mind the flesh. One could not rightly, justly be held accountable for how he was born against his own will.
     
    Nancy likes this.
  17. Phoneman777

    Phoneman777 Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    4,656
    Likes Received:
    1,483
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    "By nature" is the operative phrase. What is the "nature" of those doing the law, having never received the law?

    Fleshly or Spiritual?

    Obviously it is Spiritual - because at some point the Holy Spirit spoke to them through their conscience about right and wrong and their desire to follow after righteousness allowed the entrance of the Savior to which they will someday turn to and ask, "What are these wounds in Thine hands?" and Jesus will tell them the old, old story of His love.
     
  18. Phoneman777

    Phoneman777 Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    4,656
    Likes Received:
    1,483
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    Total Depravity is not what I'm talking about. Total Depravity is an erroneous idea (sorry and WADR my wonderful Calvinism friends :) I just don't find it to be Biblical) which removes all choice from the equation.

    What I'm trying to get through to you is that there is a diff between choosing to obey and performing the obedience.

    You've never tried to bench press one too many reps, where the only way you can get that bar back to the top of the bench is with the help of a spotter?

    In the same way, when temptation comes, you may desire to escape it and the guilt you know giving in will bring, but the only way you're going to "resist the devil" is through the help of our Heavenly Spotter. If you disagree, that's fine, but with all the Bible has to say about spotty leopards, nothing good in us, and total inability to do anything apart from Christ, I don't understand how you can maintain your position.
     
    Nancy likes this.
  19. Ernest T. Bass

    Ernest T. Bass Active Member

    Messages:
    691
    Likes Received:
    235
    People that mind the flesh can change and not only can they choose to obey, they can perform obedience. There are examples in the NT of Gentiles that formerly lived in the flesh but upon hearing the gospel, changed, went from minding the flesh to minding things of the Spirit.

    The context about a leopard not changing it spots is about Israel at a time in their history when they had hardened their hearts and refused to repent, hence they are compared to a leopard unable to change its spots. That passage therefore cannot be used in a universal sense about all men since it is specifically talking about Israel at a specific time in their history. The Bible has many examples of men repenting and 'changing their spots'.

    Also, look at it this way: God created the leopard with its spots. Did God create man with sin? If so, then God has culpability in the sins men commit and therefore God could not justly, rightly condemn man for the sins God made man to commit against his will.

    If Israel could not ever change its spots, then why did God ever chose/elect them to begin with knowing their spots cannot be changed? What purpose is there in Jeremiah preaching to them when they cannot change their spots? What was the point in God ever teaching them His ways, commanding them to obey Him, giving them a law of their own to have already knowing they could not change their spots?

    But again, the context is specifically about Israel at a specific time in their history when they forgot God and trusted in falsehoods (Jeremiah 13:25). They chose of their own will to be in their sin, not ordained by God to be in sin as some Calvinists would have us think. Again, God ordained the leopard to have spots but did not ordain men to have sin for such makes God culpable for the sins men commit. God, thru Jeremiah, said to Israel "But if ye will not hear it, my soul shall weep in secret places for your pride; and mine eye shall weep sore, and run down with tears, because the LORD'S flock is carried away captive." "If ye will not hear it" - the conditional "IF" shows Israel had a choice to hear and if they did not then he would become sorry and weep for they would become captive.

    Note in Jeremiah 18:8-10 that nations, as Israel, have choices. "IF" Israel would hear the words of God: "If that nation, against whom I have pronounced, turn from their evil, I will repent of the evil that I thought to do unto them." God would spare them IF they repent. But IF Israel would not hear and repent then they would go into captivity: "If it do evil in my sight, that it obey not my voice, then I will repent of the good, wherewith I said I would benefit them". Again, Israel had a choice and Israel chose not to repent. Yet in the OT book of Jonah, Nineveh DID choose to repent and God repented of the evil He said He would do to them, Jonah 3:10. Was Nineveh as a leopard unable to change their spots?

    Lastly, Jeremiah 13:23 "Can the Ethiopian change his skin, or the leopard his spots? then may ye also do good, that are accustomed to do evil." Jeremiah is not talking about how they were born but how they chose to live. 'Accustomed' means learned, taught hence they learned sinning not born that way.

    You say you do not agree with the idea of total depravity, but then you speak about "spotty leopards, nothing good in us, and total inability to do anything apart from Christ,". Calvinists use the same text (Jeremiah 13:25) and same words (nothing good in man, total inability) as you do in promoting total depravity. You say man cannot change his spots, there is no good in man and man has 'total inability' What do you call this if it is not total depravity?





    (The same is true in Isaiah 64:6. Again, that passage is speaking specifically about Israel when they were living in iniquity, hence their righteousness was as filthy rags before God. So it cannot be used universally about all men for the context does speak of God meeting/entreating those that work righteousness, Isaiah 64:5.)
     
    Last edited: Jul 13, 2019
    CNKW3 and Nancy like this.
  20. Phoneman777

    Phoneman777 Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    4,656
    Likes Received:
    1,483
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    Got it. Thanks for your thoughts :)
     
    Nancy likes this.
Loading...