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Featured Surviving Roman Catholic Heresies in Protestantism

Discussion in 'Christian Theology Forum' started by GerhardEbersoehn, Oct 6, 2019.

  1. GerhardEbersoehn

    GerhardEbersoehn Well-Known Member

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    Surviving Roman Catholic Heresies in Protestantism

    Free-will
    Sunday
    Blood
    Cross

    ...for now.

    I'll begin with the 'Cross'--

    Jesus' cross never stood empty; Catholics' idolatrous image does.


    Jesus never stumbled, but, went boldly! Do you believe Scripture?


    Jesus did not carry the cross to Golgotha; He walked Triumphator!
     
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  2. GerhardEbersoehn

    GerhardEbersoehn Well-Known Member

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    Christiaan Gerhardus Ebersöhn 4 mins ·

    I have never seen a picture showing Simon of Serene carry Jesus' cross; and never a text saying Jesus carried his cross further than the threshold of Pilate's palace.

    Johannes 19:17

    En terwyl Hy self sy kruis dra, het Hy uitgegaan na die

    καὶ βαστάζων ἑαυτῷ τὸν σταυρὸν ἐξῆλθεν εἰς τὸν

    And he bearing his cross went forth unto


    plek genoem Skedelkop, dis in Hebreeus gesê: Golgota.

    λεγόμενον Κρανίου τόπον, ὃ (ὃς) λέγεται Ἑβραϊστὶ Γολγοθᾶ,

    a place called of a skull which is called in the Hebrew Golgotha.


    Dag een : Simon van Sirene [Levitikus 23:22,10c Addendum 6]


    Markus 15:21

    Hulle stuur ’n boodskapper wat van die oesland af gekom het

    καὶ ἀγγαρεύουσιν παράγοντά … ἐρχόμενον ἀπ’ ἀγροῦ, …

    And they compelled one Simon a Cyrenian, who passed by,


    ene Simon die Sirener, vader van Aleksander en Rufus,

    τινα Σίμωνα Κυρηναῖον … τὸν πατέρα Ἀλεξάνδρου καὶ Ῥούφου …

    the father of Alexander and Rufus,


    na Jesus om sy kruis verder te dra.

    ἵνα ἄρῃ τὸν σταυρὸν αὐτοῦ.

    to bear his cross. Christiaan Gerhardus Ebersöhn


    Matteus 27:32

    Toe hulle uitgaan, kry hulle ’n man, ’n Sirener met die naam

    Ἐξερχόμενοι δὲ εὗρον ἄνθρωπον Κυρηναῖον, ὀνόματι

    And as they came out, they found a man of Cyrene,


    Simon, wat hulle gestuur het om sy kruis te dra.

    Σίμωνα· τοῦτον ἠγγάρευσαν ἵνα ἄρῃ τὸν σταυρὸν αὐτοῦ.

    Simon by name: him they compelled to bear his cross.


    Lukas 23:26

    Met dat hulle Hom uitlei, kom hulle op Simon af, ’n Sirener,

    Καὶ ὡς ἀπήγαγον αὐτόν, ἐπιλαβόμενοι Σίμωνά τινα Κυρηναῖον

    And as they led him away, they laid hold upon one Simon, a Cyrenian,


    terwyl hy van die oesland af terugkom; Hulle sit die kruis op hom

    ἐρχόμενον ἀπ’ ἀγροῦ, ἐπέθηκαν αὐτῷ τὸν σταυρὸν

    coming out of the country, and on him they laid the cross,


    om agter Jesus aan te dra.

    φέρειν ὄπισθεν τοῦ Ἰησοῦ.

    that he might bear it after Jesus.
     
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  3. Willie T

    Willie T Well-Known Member

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  4. Enoch111

    Enoch111 Well-Known Member

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    How can these be *Roman Catholic heresies* when they are all Bible doctrines? It looks to me like you have invented another version of Christianity just like the Roman Catholics.
     
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  5. bbyrd009

    bbyrd009 Groper

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    seems like we of all ppl should understand what "true religion" is; i take exception to "free will" in that list, myself. I though the RCC was anti-free-will?
    apparently there was a quite active Jewish school/community in Cyrene ("powerful one, social clout" perhaps), and some say that the Simon ("he who hears," "snub-nosed" {not Semitic}) story is a reference to their approval of the NT mythology?

    even from other etymologies, the...functional oxymoron? of "Simon (not a semitic name) of Cyrene" sort of becomes apparent with the um inadept treatments? imo?
     
  6. GerhardEbersoehn

    GerhardEbersoehn Well-Known Member

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    Thank you. Now I have seen it.

    I see one picture here with only Simon carrying the cross; another with John assisting Him; and most showing 'Jesus' helping Simon or 'Jesus' carrying the cross alone. All pictures show a weak 'Jesus' receiving help while carrying his cross to Golgotha.

    Not one image has the "messenger", Simon, as believing Jew, "coming from the land" with purpose, his "wave sheaf cut and lifted up", the "orderly", "called" to "carry" Jesus' cross, the "message" of the "Suffering Servant of the LORD", the PASSOVER LAMB OF GOD Jesus the Christ.

    Not one picture shows 'Jesus' Master and Lord, willingly and determined, yea, joyfully, victorious, GOING, to be crucified and "IN IT", TO "TRIUMPH".

    No picture shows the procession brought to standstill and waiting for Jesus to comfort the daughters of Jerusalem. All the pictures, in contrast, suggest and presuppose the untruth of Jesus being mocked and whipped 'on the way'. But He was not; He was not whipped again at all, and He was not mocked again until after He was crucified.

    But Protestantism like Roman Catholicism defiantly transgress the Second Commandment with these and similar idolatrous pictorial images.
     
    Last edited: Oct 6, 2019
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  7. Willie T

    Willie T Well-Known Member

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    Where is your head? Do you think it has to be written, or it didn't happen? Nowhere in the Bible does it tell of Jesus or the disciples "going to the restroom", but we know they did. Are you under the impression that the Romans had some sort of behavioral code that required the guards were polite and considerate of prisoners on their way to be crucified?
     
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  8. GerhardEbersoehn

    GerhardEbersoehn Well-Known Member

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    Speculation. In the NT Simon is a Hebrew name and there is no <apparent> reason it should here be considered <not a semitic name>. Moreover there are NO <inadept treatments> recorded from Jesus stepped out of Pilate's house until "some mocked" after they had crucified Jesus.
     
  9. GerhardEbersoehn

    GerhardEbersoehn Well-Known Member

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    Where are your eyes? You are reading the fulfilment by Divinity Himself of the greatest Divine Prophesy of all time: "I declare unto you the GOSPEL", says Paul, "I delivered unto you the MOST IMPORTANT OF ALL that Christ died ACCORDING TO THE SCRIPTURES".
    So yes! I do think it has to be written or it didn't happen! Nowhere in the Bible does it tell Jesus played martyr "going to the restroom" incidentally; it tells He suffered victoriously, having "seen no corruption in death" or in suffering dying death, but "HAVING MADE A SHOW OF THEM" and not they a show of Him, "HE IN IT TRIUMPHED"! Are you under the impression that God lost control and power to let his Eternal Purpose succeed? No, the Romans could not help but do what God not only permitted and ruled, but had predestined and executed "by the all-exceeding greatness of his power" namely, "TO LAY DOWN MY LIFE" .. to lay it down HIS WAY, the only, "WAY"-- not according to <<some sort of Roman behavioral code that required guards were polite and considerate of prisoners on their way to be crucified>> but according to the Promise, "not one hair of YOURS shall fall that is not the WILL OF YOUR FATHER". "A thousand shall fall at Thy side, and ten thousand at Thy right hand, but it shall not come nigh Thee."
     
  10. GerhardEbersoehn

    GerhardEbersoehn Well-Known Member

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  11. epostle

    epostle Active Member

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    1. Iconoclasm was central to the Reformation experience, not marginal, and not just a regrettable extravagance.

    2.Analogies between the European Reformation and contemporary Islamism are much closer than many Protestants and Jehovah's Witnesses/Bible Students would like to admit.
    Like Calvinism, Wahhabi Islam urged the destruction of everything that could be seen as a later accretion to the core of the religion, as well as all manifestations of paganism or idolatry. Since the 1920s, this version of the faith has been the official creed of Saudi Arabia, and variants of it are found among Islam’s violent and extreme movements.
    THE BREAKING OF IMAGES

    The making and use of religious statues is a thoroughly biblical practice. Anyone who says otherwise doesn’t know his Bible.
    Do Catholics Worship Statues?


    GerhardEbersoehn takes Calvin's irrational extremism to a greater extreme. Calvin taught musical instruments were idolatry; priceless organs were smashed and burned. Drama was banned. In order for a chuck of plaster to be an idol, it must be worshipped as a god. That is how the Bible defines an idol or graven image and your narrow definition is a tradition of men. To say a crucifix is idolatry is an insult to my intelligence. And anyone else with at least two functioning brain cells, once the proper use of art is understood.

    [​IMG]
    A "graven image" of J.F. Rutherford:confused:
     
    Last edited: Oct 7, 2019
  12. Windmillcharge

    Windmillcharge Well-Known Member

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    Please get your facts correct. In RC churches they have what are called 'crucifixes'
    that is a cross with the image of the dying Jesus nailled to it.

    Your first charge is wrong, so it follows your other charges are equally false.
     
  13. Windmillcharge

    Windmillcharge Well-Known Member

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    Where does it say that he didn't.
    Scripture records that a man coming the other way was used to carry the cross.
    Why did that happen?
     
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  14. Windmillcharge

    Windmillcharge Well-Known Member

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    Make up your mind did Jesus carry the cross or did Simon?

    Did he march in triumph to his death? Evidence please.
    The garden of gesthemeny shows that he knew what the fear of death was.
    His behaviour on the cross shows that he suffered as any man would who was crucified.
    His triumph was only when he rose again.
     
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  15. bbyrd009

    bbyrd009 Groper

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    ya, almost commented there yesterday, warped imo.
    i would say more of an imformed opinion, but ok
    the treatments i mentioned are extra-biblical, by etymologists, etc
     
  16. bbyrd009

    bbyrd009 Groper

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    "coming the other way" love it lol, nice catch
     
  17. epostle

    epostle Active Member

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    Nowhere does Scripture forbid Scripture in art form. It is a tradition of men.

    Question: Why do Catholics use crucifixes? Why do you keep Jesus on the cross when He is risen?

    Short answer:
    because we are saved by Jesus, and not by a cross.

    Long answer: The objection is often raised by non-Catholics in this way: "We Christians serve a Risen Christ, not a bloody, suffering victim as seen on your crucifixes."

    The Catholic response is, as most Catholic answers are: it's not an Either/Or but a Both/And.

    There is no need to say we can only serve a Risen Jesus OR a Suffering Christ. With all due respect, Catholics are quite capable of doing both!

    However, we can't have a Resurrection without a Crucifixion, and, as Fr. John Corapi states, (paraphrasing) "If you ever hear a gospel which proclaims the Resurrection without the Crucifixion, or an Easter without a Good Friday, run away as fast as you can, for this "good news" is a great DECEPTION!" Many Christian denominations seem to focus on health/wealth and success as the expected entitlement of becoming a Believer. However, the suffering, death and crucifixion ought not be looked at as a defeat, but as a triumph. In fact, Jesus tells us in this upcoming Sunday's Gospel to expect suffering if one becomes a Believer: "Whoever does not carry his own cross and come after me cannot be my disciple." -Luke 14

    One cannot look at a crucifix without seeing Great Love. For, as Christ said, "Greater love has no one than this, that one lay down his life for his friends." -John 15:13. When Mel Gibson's "The Passion of the Christ" came out I remember my pastor getting quite annoyed with the mainstream media's criticism that the film focused too much "on the suffering of Jesus and not enough on LOVE." My pastor was incredulous--how could you watch that film and see anything but LOVE--that was the entire message of His Crucifixion--he loved us so much he endured all of that for our sake! And that is what we are proclaiming when we display and venerate the crucifix. LOVE!

    (My opinion: when modern day Christians (and usually it's "educated" liberal professor-types teaching at Catholic universities, sadly enough) object to Catholicism's veneration of the Crucified Christ rather than "the message of love, forgiveness and tolerance that Jesus came to spread", they are completely missing the point of Christianity. Jesus did not come to preach a moral code--truly, he did not say anything new when he said "do unto others" or "turn the other cheek; he did not come to heal the sick--he really only cured a handful of people; he came to be the Lamb of God who took away our sins through his atoning death on the cross. THAT'S why all of this focus on a bloody, suffering victim by Catholics--it's 'cause we know it's not only about his message of forgiveness, however important it was, nor about the miracles of healing, however wonderful those were.)

    Finally, Catholics no more "keep Jesus on the cross" than all Christians "keep Jesus an infant" when they display statues/photos of a baby Jesus in a manger at Christmastime.
    3 Minute Apologetics: Why do Catholics use crucifixes?
     
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  18. GerhardEbersoehn

    GerhardEbersoehn Well-Known Member

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    To create some Scripture where there is none to support the papists’ blood-worship abominations, and claim Hebrews 9:22 applies to Jesus Christ and proves He physically bled, and translate it <<Without the shedding of [Jesus’] blood there is no forgiveness of sins>>, amounts to defiantly desecrate, corrupt and abuse the Scripture and force into it the direct opposite of its contextual, original meaning, which is about OT animal sacrifice and not about Christ! “For Christ is NOT entered into holy places the figures of the true (the types of the antitype) made with hands, but into heaven itself NOW TO APPEAR (in Person: The Resurrected and Eternal Living Christ Jesus) in the Presence of God for us—NOR YET THAT HE SHOULD OFFER HIMSELF OFTEN like the (OT) high priests entered into the holy place WITH BLOOD.” Therefore to say <<Without the shedding of [Jesus’] blood there is no forgiveness of sins>>, is to accept the FRAUD OF ANTICHRIST.
     
  19. GerhardEbersoehn

    GerhardEbersoehn Well-Known Member

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    I'm not talking about <'crucifixes' in RC churches>; I'm talking about Scripture about Jesus' cross on Golgotha; I'm talking Scripture FACT, not fictitious 'Windmillcharge' <charges>. you're talking about.
     
  20. GerhardEbersoehn

    GerhardEbersoehn Well-Known Member

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    Where did I say that Jesus didn't carry his cross? He carried it, say all four Gospels, as far as outside the door of Pilate's place.

    John 19:17
    καὶ βαστάζων ἑαυτῷ τὸν σταυρὸν ἐξῆλθεν εἰς τὸν
    And he bearing his cross went forth unto

    λεγόμενον Κρανίου τόπον, ὃ (ὃς) λέγεται Ἑβραϊστὶ Γολγοθᾶ,
    a place called of a skull which is called in the Hebrew Golgotha.

    [Leviticus 23:22,10c]

    Mark 15:21
    καὶ ἀγγαρεύουσιν παράγοντά … ἐρχόμενον ἀπ’ ἀγροῦ, …
    And they compelled one Simon a Cyrenian, who passed by,

    τινα Σίμωνα Κυρηναῖον … τὸν πατέρα Ἀλεξάνδρου καὶ Ῥούφου …
    the father of Alexander and Rufus,

    ἵνα ἄρῃ τὸν σταυρὸν αὐτοῦ.
    to bear his cross.

    Matthew 27:32
    Ἐξερχόμενοι δὲ εὗρον ἄνθρωπον Κυρηναῖον, ὀνόματι
    And as they came out, they found a man of Cyrene,

    Σίμωνα· τοῦτον ἠγγάρευσαν ἵνα ἄρῃ τὸν σταυρὸν αὐτοῦ.
    Simon by name: him they compelled to bear his cross.

    Luke 23:26
    Καὶ ὡς ἀπήγαγον αὐτόν, ἐπιλαβόμενοι Σίμωνά τινα Κυρηναῖον
    And as they led him away, they laid hold upon one Simon, a Cyrenian,

    ἐρχόμενον ἀπ’ ἀγροῦ, ἐπέθηκαν αὐτῷ τὸν σταυρὸν
    coming out of the country, and on him they laid the cross,

    φέρειν ὄπισθεν τοῦ Ἰησοῦ.
    that he might bear it [ὄπισθεν further on] after Jesus.
     
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