Surviving Roman Catholic Heresies in Protestantism

[bbyrd009]

Don't make your problem, mine; I'm not worried about <comments>; you are.

not sure how you got there from "the conundrum is illustrated by the several klunky treatments of the matter evidenced by conscientious Doctorates" GE, but ok

 

[bbyrd009]

Where does it say that he didn't.
Scripture records that a man coming the other way was used to carry the cross.
Why did that happen?

hopefully you got that it was maybe bc the Jews of Cyrene were going another way, and changed their minds. The other "Cyrene" passage supporting. Supposedly commentary on the Ptolemies may also be derived, "Background. Cyrene was located in northern Africa in eastern Libya. A Greek city in the province of Cyrenaica, it had a Jewish community where 100,000 Judean Jews had been forced to settle during the reign of Ptolemy Soter (323–285 BC) and was an early center of Christianity..."

 

[DoveSpirit05]

Please get your facts correct. In RC churches they have what are called 'crucifixes'
that is a cross with the image of the dying Jesus nailled to it.

Your first charge is wrong, so it follows your other charges are equally false.

fallacy of hasty generalisation committed right here!! but its not a surprising reaction, no matter how much u prove 2 a RC!! dat its a religion of heresy they will always just deny it no matter wat proof u bring 2 the table, its wat happens when u get swept into a cultic religion. All we can do is just pray 4 dem and dat God removes the scales from their eyes!!

 

[epostle]

fallacy of hasty generalisation committed right here!! but its not a surprising reaction, no matter how much u prove 2 a RC!! dat its a religion of heresy they will always just deny it no matter wat proof u bring 2 the table, its wat happens when u get swept into a cultic religion. All we can do is just pray 4 dem and dat God removes the scales from their eyes!!

fallacy of hasty generalisation committed right here!!

 

[Berserk]

"They compelled a passer by, who was coming in from the country, to it was Simon of Cyrene...(Mark 15:21).
This text implies (1) that Simon of Cyrene didn't want to carry Jesus' cross, but was coerced into doing so; and
(2) that Jesus stumbled and staggered with no dignity, being to weak to carry his own cross.

 

[Giuliano]

Proven: Catholics can't help to be demeaning, it's part of their spiritual fabric.

Wow! Do you own a mirror?

 

[Giuliano]

"the papists’ blood-worship abominations" is far more demeaning than me advising you to seek medical help for your hateful psychosis.

I don't see Catholics posting whole threads mocking "Bible Students" (or whatever you call yourself) with fallacious arguments, do you? Maybe I should start one, but it will be factual. Your post-enlightenment cult makes a religion out of persecuting Catholicism with lies and falsehoods. Where do Catholics misrepresent your beliefs in such a diabolical fashion as you do to us??? NOWHERE! And you say WE are demeaning???

Please don't. We have enough ugliness as it is. I don't think many people take this sort of crazy attack seriously anymore although I admit we get a lot of it on "Christian" forums. Some just want attention; and the more attention they get, the more they're encouraged to go on and on. This man "needs help", that's for sure. Better to pray then, "Father, forgive him for he knows not what he does."

Why not start a thread about the saints? I'd love one that told us about each saint on the calendar. We all might profit by learning about their lives. I think there is other good you could talk about -- some are things others might find valuable, even if they're not Catholic. Give us something good to think about.

Philippians 4:8 Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things.

 

[epostle]

Surviving GerhardEbersoehn So Called Heresies ​

Free-will
Sunday
Blood
Cross
...for now.
I'll begin with the 'Cross'--
Jesus' cross never stood empty; Catholics' idolatrous image does.

First of all, a single word by itself is not a heresy.
According to Hilaire Belloc, "Heresy is the dislocation of some complete and self-supporting scheme by the introduction of a novel denial of some essential part therein...Heresy means, then, the warping of a system by 'Exception'..." [The Great Heresies (TAN Books, 1991) p. 2].

A heresy is not the total rejection of the Christian faith but a distortion of it. One essential truth is denied or exaggerated at the expense of another essential truth. For example, knowledge about the teachings of Christ is important, but the Gnostic heretics claimed that such knowledge was more important than faith. They taught that salvation came through knowledge and not by faith in Jesus Christ. Even though heresies are bad, we can better appreciate the true faith by knowing what to avoid.

What do you consider "essential truths"?

 

[epostle]

Surviving GerhardEbersoehn So Called Heresies ​

Jesus' cross never stood empty; Catholics' idolatrous image does.

By changing the biblical definition of an idolatrous image, you create a straw man fallacy.

Jesus never stumbled, but, went boldly! Do you believe Scripture?

Roman scourging is so brutal that many died before making it to crucifixion. I don't see anywhere in Scripture where Jesus carries His cross boldly. Not only do you change the biblical meaning of words but you invent your own scriptures. Jesus stumbling is not in Scripture, but REASON gives it more plausibility, given the facts of Roman scourging. The Christian community talked about "The Via Dolorosa" for 20 years before the first New Testament Scripture was written, and even longer before the Gospels were written. Not everything that was preserved orally made it into the Bible, or the Bible pages would stack up to the moon. Tradition is not a dirty word.

One might loosely define tradition as the authoritative and authentic Christian history of theological doctrines and devotional practices. Christianity is fundamentally grounded in the earth-shattering historical events in the life of Jesus Christ (His incarnation, preaching, miracles, passion, crucifixion, resurrection, and ascension).

Eyewitnesses (Lk 1:1-2; Acts 1:1-3; 2 Pet 1:16-18) communicated these true stories to the early Christians, who in turn passed them on to other Christians (under the guidance of the Church's authority) down through the ages. Therefore, Christian tradition, defined as authentic Church history, is unavoidable, and is a very good thing: not a “bad” thing at all.
Tradition is Not a Dirty Word — It's a Great Gift
Focusing on just the bad traditions to refute good traditions is standard anti-Catholic methodology.

Jesus did not carry the cross to Golgotha; He walked Triumphator!

Jesus was triumphant in conquering sin and death, but He didn't skip and dance to Golgotha. That's just stupid. ​

 

[epostle]

Surviving GerhardEbersoehn So Called Heresies
​

free will

McCarthy (along with many other Calvinist anti-Catholics) is unwilling or unable to understand the relationship of human free will to God’s grace. We believe we can cooperate with God’s grace in order to “merit.” Yet that very merit is itself completely an act of God’s grace. Catholic Merit vs. Distorted Caricatures (James McCarthy) Since GerhardEbersoehn has free will listed as a Catholic heresy, it can be assumed he is borrowing heavily from John Calvin.

An increase of faith can be ascribed to creatures as long as we don’t deny that God is the ultimate cause of this. Calvin’s “either/or” mentality doesn’t allow him to be able to ascribe anything to human beings: not even, apparently, a cooperative effort initiated (yes indeed), by God, but still given assent to by the creature. Scripture is clear in many ways about our participation in the entire process.

This is evident, for example, in the supreme emphasis on works and what we do, in biblical passages having to do with Judgment Day. It’s apparent again in many passages asserting the existence of our own work even with regard to salvation:

Acts 2:40-41
Philippians 2:12-13
1 Timothy 4:16

Also, we can note many passages that assert meritoriousness of human acts and differential rewards (something that Calvin vehemently denies) :

Matthew 5:11-12
Matthew 19:29
Luke 6:38
1 Corinthians 3:6-9
2 Corinthians 6:1
Ephesians 6:8
Hebrews 10:35

God’s grace causes all hearts to respond, but it is not without human cooperation. We have the free will to resist God’s grace. It is not irresistible, as Calvin and Calvinists teach. "free will" is accepted by most Protestants.

 

[epostle]

Surviving GerhardEbersoehn So Called Heresies
​

Sunday

Sunday is the first day of the week. A single word cannot be a heresy. Sabbatarians did not exist in the 2nd century, although easy to prove in the 1st century. There is no historical record of there being any. None whatsoever.

 

[epostle]

Surviving GerhardEbersoehn So Called Heresies ​

blood

"papists’ blood-worship abominations" is what Gerry means. It's a cheap, blasphemous shot at the Mass. This time, he is not alone.

How the Satanic Black Mass Proves the Truth of Catholicism

There have been a number of stories in the news lately of small Satanic groups publicly performing so-called “Black Masses.”

These rituals are based on the Catholic mass but are inverted toward Satan and often involve the desecration of a Eucharistic host.

This sort of thing is evil and should not be taken lightly. It’s also occurred to me, though, how these Black Masses offer a powerful argument for the truth of Catholicism.

The Eucharist is either Jesus or Evil
The Eucharist is either Jesus or mere bread and wine.

If the Eucharist is Jesus, everyone should be at Mass, worshipping Our Lord. If the Eucharist is Jesus, there should be no such thing as Protestantism, Mormonism, Islam, atheism, etc. But if the Eucharist isn’t Jesus, then for two thousand years, the would-be followers of Jesus Christ were actually idolaters. If that’s the case, nobody should be Catholic.

So those are the stakes. Everyone who encountered Jesus of Nazareth was faced with a crucial question: is this God, in some mysterious guise, or not? The early Christians called this the “aut Deus aut malus homo” (“either God or a bad man”). Everyone encountering the Eucharist is faced with the same question: either God or idolatry.

And of course, if the Eucharist is pagan idolatry, it’s demonic. As 1 Corinthians 10:20 says, “what pagans sacrifice they offer to demons and not to God.”

The whole world hangs on this point: is the Eucharist Jesus or an idol? Is the Sacrifice of the Mass being offered to God, or to demons?

Satan Hates the Eucharist
The satanic Black Mass is a ritual inversion (and mockery) of the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass performed by Satanists. Now, there are two types of Satanists: “LaVey Satanists,” and “theological Satanists.” LaVey Satanists atheists who don’t believe in Satan, and use “Satanism” as a tool to harass and provoke Christians (unlike“theological Satanists,” who believe in Satan and worship him). But whether the practitioners are playing at the occult, or serious, there’s no question that they’re tapping into some seriously dark spiritual forces. Satan is at work here.

And it worth pointing out that when Satanists (of both kind) want to mock a religious ritual, you can bet that it’s going to be the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass that they target. How often do you hear about Muslim or Hindu or Jewish (or even Protestant) services being subjected to such intense Satanic mockery?

Nor is this Satanic targeting of the Mass anything new. As far back as the fourth century, St. Epiphanius of Salamis described a sect of Gnosticism performing a perverted mockery of Mass. I won’t go into the details, but it was graphic enough that the members of this sect became known as “Borborians” (“filthy ones”).

Satan Doesn’t Drive Out Satan
So the Eucharist is either Jesus or evil (since if it’s not Jesus, it’s idolatry) and since the devil hates the Eucharist, we can cross “evil” off the list.

For some additional Biblical support, consider Matthew 12:22-28

This passage is important: it shows, for example, that Catholic exorcists are operating by the Spirit of God when they drive out demons. But it also means that if Satan hates the Mass, we can be sure that the Mass isn’t evil.

Of course, if the Mass isn’t demonic, if it isn’t idolatry, that really only leaves one option: that the Eucharist is Jesus Christ, and that the Sacrifice of the Mass is presenting Jesus to the Father. This (and as far as I can tell, this alone), accounts for the Satanic mockery.

The Target of Satan
Even if the only thing you knew about Catholicism was that its central form of worship, the Mass, was the target of Satanic ire, you would already have good reason to believe that Catholicism was the true religion.

But taken with all of the other evidence for the truth that the Eucharist is Jesus, that the Mass is a Sacrifice instituted by God, and that the Catholic Church is the Church founded by Christ, Satan is just one more (unwitting) witness for the truth of Jesus Christ and His Church.
How the Satanic Black Mass Proves the Truth of Catholicism |

"papists’ blood-worship abominations"
GerhardE is not a Satanist, but stands with Satanists in their mockery. Blind prejudice diminishes his culpability so he is off the hook.

 

[GerhardEbersoehn]

I don't see Catholics posting whole threads mocking "Bible Students" (or whatever you call yourself) with fallacious arguments, do you? Maybe I should start one, but it will be factual. Your post-enlightenment cult makes a religion out of persecuting Catholicism with lies and falsehoods. Where do Catholics misrepresent your beliefs in such a diabolical fashion as you do to us??? NOWHERE! And you say WE are demeaning???

This is your own answer to your own questions, proving everything I say, accurately true.

 

[GerhardEbersoehn]

Surviving GerhardEbersoehn So Called Heresies
​

Sunday

Sunday is the first day of the week. A single word cannot be a heresy. Sabbatarians did not exist in the 2nd century, although easy to prove in the 1st century. There is no historical record of there being any. None whatsoever.

Where ignorance is bliss and to know is folly, it's easy to prove Sabbatarians existed in the 1st century, and impossible they existed in the 2nd century.

 

[GerhardEbersoehn]

Sunday is the first day of the week. A single word cannot be a heresy.

Phew mate, I frankly don't know how to handle your degree of scholarship...

 

[epostle]

Where ignorance is bliss and to know is folly, it's easy to prove Sabbatarians existed in the 1st century, and impossible they existed in the 2nd century.

Brilliant! You are repeating what I said! There is hope! Why did you list "Sunday" as a Catholic heresy?

Phew mate, I frankly don't know how to handle your degree of scholarship...

No, you don't. That's the most honest thing you have said in this Catholic bashing thread.

 

[GerhardEbersoehn]

hopefully you got that it was maybe bc the Jews of Cyrene were going another way, and changed their minds. The other "Cyrene" passage supporting. Supposedly commentary on the Ptolemies may also be derived, "Background. Cyrene was located in northern Africa in eastern Libya. A Greek city in the province of Cyrenaica, it had a Jewish community where 100,000 Judean Jews had been forced to settle during the reign of Ptolemy Soter (323–285 BC) and was an early center of Christianity..."

Sine prole

 

[GerhardEbersoehn]

"They compelled a passer by, who was coming in from the country, to it was Simon of Cyrene...(Mark 15:21).
This text implies (1) that Simon of Cyrene didn't want to carry Jesus' cross, but was coerced into doing so; and
(2) that Jesus stumbled and staggered with no dignity, being to weak to carry his own cross.

Exactly! It's what this thread IS ABOUT. Protestants, prolific translators, have as yet never revised 'compelled' or any of the obsolete useless ideas as it were visualised.
In an earlier post of mine I stated,
The most common of misconceptions people entertain with regard to Simon of Cyrene and his carrying Jesus' cross... They place Simon's taking over of Jesus' cross in the last stage before arrival at the site where they would crucify Him, because, they speculate, Jesus got tired, which had to be near before the end, when Simon [supposedly] began to carry the cross further.

But this is directly against the course of events. John 19:14 stipulates it was Roman time "6 o'clock in the morning" when Pilate delivered Him to the Jews to be crucified by them and the whole crowd started out from Pilate's house. And it was as they set out foot onto the path to Golgotha, that we read,

John 19:14
ἦν δὲ Παρασκευὴ τοῦ πάσχα,
And it was the preparation of the passover

ὥρα ἦν ὡς ἕκτη· καὶ λέγει τοῖς Ἰουδαίοις Ἴδε ὁ Βασιλεὺς ὑμῶν.
and ...the sixth hour: and he saith unto the Jews, Behold, your King.
John 19:16b
. . . παρέλαβον οὖν τὸν Ἰησοῦν (ἵνα σταυρωθῇ).
And they took Jesus and led him away that he should be crucified.
Mark 15:20b
Καὶ ἐξάγουσιν αὐτὸν ἵνα σταυρώσωσιν αὐτόν.
And they led him out to crucify him.
Matthew 27:31b
. . . καὶ ἀπήγαγον αὐτὸν εἰς τὸ σταυρῶσαι.
. . . and they led him away to crucify him.
John 19:17
καὶ βαστάζων ἑαυτῷ τὸν σταυρὸν ἐξῆλθεν εἰς τὸν
And he bearing his cross went forth unto

λεγόμενον Κρανίου τόπον, ὃ (ὃς) λέγεται Ἑβραϊστὶ Γολγοθᾶ,
a place called of a skull which is called in the Hebrew Golgotha.

Markus 15:21
καὶ ἀγγαρεύουσιν παράγοντά … ἐρχόμενον ἀπ’ ἀγροῦ, …
And they compelled one Simon a Cyrenian, who passed by,

THESE ARE THE SCRIPTURES.
So Jesus had not tired--it's a fallacy!--, and Simon did not come to his help.--It's another fallacy! So that proves the assumption that Jesus tired, false.
Jesus had not tired yet and at no stage would yet tire! He carried that cross with "the Arms of the Almighty under". And He carried it because his Desire was "not My Will but Thy Will be done", so in the Full Fellowship of Himself and his Father Delighted the Son to set face against the great dragon that lieth in wait for Him in the midst of his rivers.

How would I translate 'angareuoh'? Let me first finish another word, right next to 'angareuousin', 'paragonta' - "passing by" from 'paragoh' - in today's metaphor, to 'make pit stop', 'take the off-ramp', 'go on the slip-way' to some destination-point by the way. The post man is on errand, he must deliver his parcel... his "first sheaf of firstfruits of harvest".
But he deviated off the prescribed way to the TEMPLE, and went to the ruler in Israel's palace instead!
So I would translate with or in most common way of speaking (Koineh), of Follett's 'Classic Greek Dictionary', "They dispatched him (the messenger) on his way to deliver (at House Pontius Pilate), and told him, Pick up [your parcel for delivery,] the cross, of that man, Jesus, and carry it further to the address, Golgotha!" You are dismissed as soon as you finished your rounds! So Simon of Cyrene did what he wanted to do himself, as well as, as he was ordered (ok, 'forced' if you like) to do, against custom, by none less than the God he worshipped as a believing ISRAELITE.

So, From inside the palace to the palace door,
John 19:16b
. . . παρέλαβον οὖν τὸν Ἰησοῦν (ἵνα σταυρωθῇ).
And they took Jesus and led him away that he should be crucified.
Matthew 27:31b
. . . καὶ ἀπήγαγον αὐτὸν εἰς τὸ σταυρῶσαι.
. . . and they led him away to crucify him.

And from before the door to outside the door,
John 19:17
καὶ βαστάζων ἑαυτῷ τὸν σταυρὸν ἐξῆλθεν εἰς τὸν
And he bearing his cross went forth [OUT] unto

But moreover, this says Jesus not only started out carrying his cross, but went before Simon who there and then had taken up Jesus' cross to carry it on after Him, and, that Jesus went in front of everybody, "THE LORD FOR HE IS A MAN OF WAR!" Truth is, Jesus marched, "The Prince of Peace" to the battlefield in Paradise "in the Kingdom of My Father" to CONQUER "the Prince of Darkness" in the "Kingdom of Darkness" THERE, THEN, AND LIKE THAT, SUFFERING!

 

[GerhardEbersoehn]

Please don't. We have enough ugliness as it is. I don't think many people take this sort of crazy attack seriously anymore although I admit we get a lot of it on "Christian" forums. Some just want attention; and the more attention they get, the more they're encouraged to go on and on. This man "needs help", that's for sure. Better to pray then, "Father, forgive him for he knows not what he does."

Why not start a thread about the saints? I'd love one that told us about each saint on the calendar. We all might profit by learning about their lives. I think there is other good you could talk about -- some are things others might find valuable, even if they're not Catholic. Give us something good to think about.

Philippians 4:8 Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things.

I meant this thread for showing the Protestants about their RC legacy of errors, lies and bull dust that clot their brains and ossify their hearts, but heard no word of any Protestant so far protesting against but PLEADING INSTEAD. Only from the RCs who have all reason dumped in their laps to celebrate total exposure of the Protestants, but instead groan and moan.

 

[Giuliano]

I meant this thread for showing the Protestants about their RC legacy of errors, lies and bull dust that clot their brains and ossify their hearts, but heard no word of any Protestant so far protesting against but PLEADING INSTEAD. Only from the RCs who have all reason dumped in their laps to celebrate total exposure of the Protestants, but instead groan and moan.

I am not a Catholic, but I'm tired of this kind of thing. I appeal to you too to apply:

Philippians 4:8 Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things.