Taking Scriptural Authority

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This Vale Of Tears

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Jun 13, 2013
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lforrest said:
So there is no issue with using the scriptures heavily to make your point.
The only problem is making the Bible fit a role it was never designed for. Every Christian should be fluent in the holy scriptures, being well studied in the Old and New Covenants and able to articulate the gospel of Christ. But making the Bible the sole authority on all doctrine is to give it a task it's not suited for. Neither the gospels nor the epistles are exhaustive accounts of all that was taught.

But.....

I've seen posts on this forum that are just pasted scriptures, entire chapters of verse that one is expected to sift through to see what argument is being bolstered. You never see me do that because I already know that people's eyes will glaze over when they see that kind of thing. My posts are full of scriptural reference, but it's me making the argument, not posting bible verses and expecting you all to figure it out.

So.....yes, it's possible to use too much scripture, especially when it isn't even targeted passages that buttress an argument but just copy + paste laziness.
 

RANDOR

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I didn't come to know the scriptures till after I was saved.....................no man screwed with my head :)
Got it from the source............
 

This Vale Of Tears

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RANDOR said:
I didn't come to know the scriptures till after I was saved.....................no man screwed with my head :)
Got it from the source............
For centuries people came to know Christ without a leather bound, red-letter KJV in their hands. You're in good company.
 

aspen

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Well, I do admit, I simply refuse to read posts that are just lists of scripture. It is boring. It is like sitting down to fine meal of raw grain rather than bread. Webster is a prime suspect.
 

RANDOR

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aspen said:
Well, I do admit, I simply refuse to read posts that are just lists of scripture. It is boring. It is like sitting down to fine meal of raw grain rather than bread. Webster is a prime suspect.
Ya....it's like we have never seen a scripture before......:)
 
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This Vale Of Tears

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aspen said:
The Bible and the Church are equal authorities.
Close. Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition are equal to each other, but the authority rests in the Catholic Church.

"I should not believe the Gospel except as moved by the authority of the Catholic Church." --St. Augustine
 

Shirley

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lforrest said:
So there is no issue with using the scriptures heavily to make your point.
If you are arguing a theology that you think is wrong then you must, IMO use many scriptures. The people who are studying your point will read the scriptures. Those who have made up their minds about what they have been taught will not read them. Those who want to know if what you are saying is true will read them. All my life I have heard people pluck scriptures-you know- just one to make their point. If you are one whom God has chosen to teach that something most believe- is wrong, then you will be persecuted! I say it is alright in my opinion to post as many scriptures that support your view. If you are correct then a few will read and find what they have been searching for! True knowledge is hard to come by b/c most people only argue what they have been taught by men. Others choose to spend their lives searching and sometimes God only shows us things when we are ready. I once spent years writing a booklet that used scriptures mostly and drew them together. I was studying a subject to help someone else and realized that what I had been taught was wrong. People refused to read it at all. One person said I hope u are right about what I had discovered after reading every word the Bible said about a certain subject. The Holy Spirit had opened my eyes to see what it said. Every day before I read the word I asked the Holy Spirit to take out of my mind what I thought I knew and to open my mind to the words. Sometimes I read something many times before it popped off the page and WOW! I knew what it meant. My studies were not well received at all even though it was all scripture. Be encouraged those of you who study. Even if u are wrong I believe that God sees your efforts. Just remember that God tells you what he wants you to know. Please Brothers and Sisters- let us not judge one another. Maybe God wants that other person not to know what he has showed you because it would ruin that persons family relationships. Let us love one another and have respect for what another brother believes. You could always say I see why you see it that way. Just b/c God showed you something does not mean that the other Brother is ready to hear your words. You will know them by there love for one another! JMO Grandma Shirley! Peace and blessings on all the people in Gods creation!!!!
 

lforrest

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Thanks Shirley,

There are things I would consider disputable matters, and God will sometimes give special insight into these. I have found it is not profitable to share those, because it causes disputes. It may be obvious because the Holy Spirit told you, but to other people it is absolutely meaningless. Although when the revelation is profound I like to share it anyways, in a non-confrontational way.

Then there are issues on doctrine that are absolutely critical to being a healthy Christian, these we are obliged to share. Make no mistake that God wants everyone to put him first, even above family.

I also have a hunch that the Holy Spirit will not lead anyone into any special revelations of his will until they are ready to follow, for their own sake or they might sin by their disobedience.
 

HammerStone

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I'm not certain that the view that the aforementioned councils held the view that they had authority over Scripture in that way. Rather than an anachronistic and semantic concept that synods purely determined everything, it's much more reasonable to understand that certain books had already been canonized. It's very clear from some New Testament passages that there was some concept of Paul's letters being considered some form of Scripture. We've had a discussion about that elsewhere, but the quotes provided by Nomad should illuminate that.

Of course, this is the same crew that maintains that the pope has always been in Rome and ignores those pesky inconvenient facts, so I don't look for much agreement.

However, don't just take my word for it. Apply a little bit of common sense and go with it:


"The clearest token of the prestige enjoyed by Scripture is the fact that almost the entire theological effort of the Fathers, whether their aims were polemical or constructive, was expended upon what amounted to the exposition of the Bible. Further, it was everywhere taken for granted that, for any doctrine to win acceptance, it had first to establish its Scriptural basis"
(Emphasis mine.)

J. N. D. Kelly, Early Christian Doctrines (San Francisco: Harper & Row, 1978), pp. 42, 46.

The Church exists, in the Roman view, because of what Jesus said to Peter in the gospels. Cart, meet horse.

Now, to answer the OP.

One must have a view on some level that Holy Scripture is something beyond a book. I'm one who always tends to abide by the doctrine of the perspicuity of Scripture. It simply means that we need for salvation is clear enough for us to understand it. It does not mean that everything is clear and requires no interpretation with the use of certain hermeneutical lenses.

I think the Westminster Confession does a great job of elucidating this doctrine, and I comfortable not rewriting what has already been said, quite well at that:


(1.7)
All things in Scripture are not alike plain in themselves, nor alike clear unto all (2 Pet. 3:16); yet those things which are necessary to be known, believed, and observed for salvation, are so clearly propounded, and opened in some place of Scripture or other, that not only the learned, but the unlearned, in a due use of the ordinary means, may attain unto a sufficient understanding of them (Ps. 119:105, 130).
With that said, any commentary should be presented in a way such that it is not Scripture. Rather than going down the path of a silly almost disclaimer each time I open my trap, I prefer just to share beliefs and acknowledge that disagreement is possible on certain issues. I think educating ourselves to understand that certain disagreements are okay is crucial.

For instance, maintaining that Christ was not divine becomes problematic. Moving the sabbath to one day or the other doesn't necessarily destroy key fundamentals in the same way.
 
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aspen

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You need to review you Catechism, Vale:


PART ONE
THE PROFESSION OF FAITH

SECTION ONE
"I BELIEVE" - "WE BELIEVE"

CHAPTER TWO
GOD COMES TO MEET MAN

ARTICLE 3
SACRED SCRIPTURE

I. CHRIST - THE UNIQUE WORD OF SACRED SCRIPTURE

101 In order to reveal himself to men, in the condescension of his goodness God speaks to them in human words: "Indeed the words of God, expressed in the words of men, are in every way like human language, just as the Word of the eternal Father, when he took on himself the flesh of human weakness, became like men."63

102 Through all the words of Sacred Scripture, God speaks only one single Word, his one Utterance in whom he expresses himself completely:64

You recall that one and the same Word of God extends throughout Scripture, that it is one and the same Utterance that resounds in the mouths of all the sacred writers, since he who was in the beginning God with God has no need of separate syllables; for he is not subject to time.65
103 For this reason, the Church has always venerated the Scriptures as she venerates the Lord's Body. She never ceases to present to the faithful the bread of life, taken from the one table of God's Word and Christ's Body.66

104 In Sacred Scripture, the Church constantly finds her nourishment and her strength, for she welcomes it not as a human word, "but as what it really is, the word of God".67 "In the sacred books, the Father who is in heaven comes lovingly to meet his children, and talks with them."68

II. INSPIRATION AND TRUTH OF SACRED SCRIPTURE

105 God is the author of Sacred Scripture. "The divinely revealed realities, which are contained and presented in the text of Sacred Scripture, have been written down under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit."69

"For Holy Mother Church, relying on the faith of the apostolic age, accepts as sacred and canonical the books of the Old and the New Testaments, whole and entire, with all their parts, on the grounds that, written under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, they have God as their author, and have been handed on as such to the Church herself."70

106 God inspired the human authors of the sacred books. "To compose the sacred books, God chose certain men who, all the while he employed them in this task, made full use of their own faculties and powers so that, though he acted in them and by them, it was as true authors that they consigned to writing whatever he wanted written, and no more."71

107 The inspired books teach the truth. "Since therefore all that the inspired authors or sacred writers affirm should be regarded as affirmed by the Holy Spirit, we must acknowledge that the books of Scripture firmly, faithfully, and without error teach that truth which God, for the sake of our salvation, wished to see confided to the Sacred Scriptures."72

108 Still, the Christian faith is not a "religion of the book." Christianity is the religion of the "Word" of God, a word which is "not a written and mute word, but the Word is incarnate and living".73 If the Scriptures are not to remain a dead letter, Christ, the eternal Word of the living God, must, through the Holy Spirit, "open [our] minds to understand the Scriptures."74

III. THE HOLY SPIRIT, INTERPRETER OF SCRIPTURE

109 In Sacred Scripture, God speaks to man in a human way. To interpret Scripture correctly, the reader must be attentive to what the human authors truly wanted to affirm, and to what God wanted to reveal to us by their words.75

110 In order to discover the sacred authors' intention, the reader must take into account the conditions of their time and culture, the literary genres in use at that time, and the modes of feeling, speaking and narrating then current. "For the fact is that truth is differently presented and expressed in the various types of historical writing, in prophetical and poetical texts, and in other forms of literary expression."76

111 But since Sacred Scripture is inspired, there is another and no less important principle of correct interpretation, without which Scripture would remain a dead letter. "Sacred Scripture must be read and interpreted in the light of the same Spirit by whom it was written."77

The Second Vatican Council indicates three criteria for interpreting Scripture in accordance with the Spirit who inspired it.78

112 1. Be especially attentive "to the content and unity of the whole Scripture". Different as the books which compose it may be, Scripture is a unity by reason of the unity of God's plan, of which Christ Jesus is the center and heart, open since his Passover.79
The phrase "heart of Christ" can refer to Sacred Scripture, which makes known his heart, closed before the Passion, as the Scripture was obscure. But the Scripture has been opened since the Passion; since those who from then on have understood it, consider and discern in what way the prophecies must be interpreted.80
113 2. Read the Scripture within "the living Tradition of the whole Church". According to a saying of the Fathers, Sacred Scripture is written principally in the Church's heart rather than in documents and records, for the Church carries in her Tradition the living memorial of God's Word, and it is the Holy Spirit who gives her the spiritual interpretation of the Scripture (". . . according to the spiritual meaning which the Spirit grants to the Church"81).

114 3. Be attentive to the analogy of faith.82 By "analogy of faith" we mean the coherence of the truths of faith among themselves and within the whole plan of Revelation.

The senses of Scripture

115 According to an ancient tradition, one can distinguish between two senses of Scripture: the literal and the spiritual, the latter being subdivided into the allegorical, moral and anagogical senses. The profound concordance of the four senses guarantees all its richness to the living reading of Scripture in the Church.

116 The literal sense is the meaning conveyed by the words of Scripture and discovered by exegesis, following the rules of sound interpretation: "All other senses of Sacred Scripture are based on the literal."83

117 The spiritual sense. Thanks to the unity of God's plan, not only the text of Scripture but also the realities and events about which it speaks can be signs.

1. The allegorical sense. We can acquire a more profound understanding of events by recognizing their significance in Christ; thus the crossing of the Red Sea is a sign or type of Christ's victory and also of Christian Baptism.84

2. The moral sense. The events reported in Scripture ought to lead us to act justly. As St. Paul says, they were written "for our instruction".85

3. The anagogical sense (Greek: anagoge, "leading"). We can view realities and events in terms of their eternal significance, leading us toward our true homeland: thus the Church on earth is a sign of the heavenly Jerusalem.86

118 A medieval couplet summarizes the significance of the four senses:

The Letter speaks of deeds; Allegory to faith;
The Moral how to act; Anagogy our destiny.87
119 "It is the task of exegetes to work, according to these rules, towards a better understanding and explanation of the meaning of Sacred Scripture in order that their research may help the Church to form a firmer judgement. For, of course, all that has been said about the manner of interpreting Scripture is ultimately subject to the judgement of the Church which exercises the divinely conferred commission and ministry of watching over and interpreting the Word of God."88
But I would not believe in the Gospel, had not the authority of the Catholic Church already moved me.89
IV. THE CANON OF SCRIPTURE

120 It was by the apostolic Tradition that the Church discerned which writings are to be included in the list of the sacred books.90 This complete list is called the canon of Scripture. It includes 46 books for the Old Testament (45 if we count Jeremiah and Lamentations as one) and 27 for the New.91

The Old Testament: Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy, Joshua, Judges, Ruth, 1 and 2 Samuel, 1 and 2 Kings, 1 and 2 Chronicles, Ezra and Nehemiah, Tobit, Judith, Esther, 1 and 2 Maccabees, Job, Psalms, Proverbs, Ecclesiastes, the Song of Songs, the Wisdom of Solomon, Sirach (Ecclesiasticus), Isaiah, Jeremiah, Lamentations, Baruch, Ezekiel, Daniel, Hosea, Joel, Amos, Obadiah, Jonah, Micah, Nahum, Habakkuk, Zephaniah, Haggai, Zachariah and Malachi.

The New Testament: the Gospels according to Matthew, Mark, Luke and John, the Acts of the Apostles, the Letters of St. Paul to the Romans, 1 and 2 Corinthians, Galatians, Ephesians, Philippians, Colossians, 1 and 2 Thessalonians, 1 and 2 Timothy, Titus, Philemon, the Letter to the Hebrews, the Letters of James, 1 and 2 Peter, 1, 2 and 3 John, and Jude, and Revelation (the Apocalypse).
The Old Testament

121 The Old Testament is an indispensable part of Sacred Scripture. Its books are divinely inspired and retain a permanent value,92 for the Old Covenant has never been revoked.

122 Indeed, "the economy of the Old Testament was deliberately so oriented that it should prepare for and declare in prophecy the coming of Christ, redeemer of all men."93 "Even though they contain matters imperfect and provisional,"94 the books of the Old Testament bear witness to the whole divine pedagogy of God's saving love: these writings "are a storehouse of sublime teaching on God and of sound wisdom on human life, as well as a wonderful treasury of prayers; in them, too, the mystery of our salvation is present in a hidden way."95

123 Christians venerate the Old Testament as true Word of God. The Church has always vigorously opposed the idea of rejecting the Old Testament under the pretext that the New has rendered it void (Marcionism).

The New Testament

124 "The Word of God, which is the power of God for salvation to everyone who has faith, is set forth and displays its power in a most wonderful way in the writings of the New Testament"96 which hand on the ultimate truth of God's Revelation. Their central object is Jesus Christ, God's incarnate Son: his acts, teachings, Passion and glorification, and his Church's beginnings under the Spirit's guidance.97

125 The Gospels are the heart of all the Scriptures "because they are our principal source for the life and teaching of the Incarnate Word, our Savior".98

126 We can distinguish three stages in the formation of the Gospels:

1. The life and teaching of Jesus. The Church holds firmly that the four Gospels, "whose historicity she unhesitatingly affirms, faithfully hand on what Jesus, the Son of God, while he lived among men, really did and taught for their eternal salvation, until the day when he was taken up."99

2. The oral tradition. "For, after the ascension of the Lord, the apostles handed on to their hearers what he had said and done, but with that fuller understanding which they, instructed by the glorious events of Christ and enlightened by the Spirit of truth, now enjoyed."100

3. The written Gospels. "The sacred authors, in writing the four Gospels, selected certain of the many elements which had been handed on, either orally or already in written form; others they synthesized or explained with an eye to the situation of the churches, the while sustaining the form of preaching, but always in such a fashion that they have told us the honest truth about Jesus."101

127 The fourfold Gospel holds a unique place in the Church, as is evident both in the veneration which the liturgy accords it and in the surpassing attraction it has exercised on the saints at all times:

There is no doctrine which could be better, more precious and more splendid than the text of the Gospel. Behold and retain what our Lord and Master, Christ, has taught by his words and accomplished by his deeds.102
But above all it's the gospels that occupy my mind when I'm at prayer; my poor soul has so many needs, and yet this is the one thing needful. I'm always finding fresh lights there; hidden meanings which had meant nothing to me hitherto.103

The unity of the Old and New Testaments

128 The Church, as early as apostolic times,104 and then constantly in her Tradition, has illuminated the unity of the divine plan in the two Testaments through typology, which discerns in God's works of the Old Covenant prefigurations of what he accomplished in the fullness of time in the person of his incarnate Son.

129 Christians therefore read the Old Testament in the light of Christ crucified and risen. Such typological reading discloses the inexhaustible content of the Old Testament; but it must not make us forget that the Old Testament retains its own intrinsic value as Revelation reaffirmed by our Lord himself.105 Besides, the New Testament has to be read in the light of the Old. Early Christian catechesis made constant use of the Old Testament.106 As an old saying put it, the New Testament lies hidden in the Old and the Old Testament is unveiled in the New.107

130 Typology indicates the dynamic movement toward the fulfillment of the divine plan when "God [will] be everything to everyone."108 Nor do the calling of the patriarchs and the exodus from Egypt, for example, lose their own value in God's plan, from the mere fact that they were intermediate stages.

V. SACRED SCRIPTURE IN THE LIFE OF THE CHURCH

131 "And such is the force and power of the Word of God that it can serve the Church as her support and vigor, and the children of the Church as strength for their faith, food for the soul, and a pure and lasting fount of spiritual life."109 Hence "access to Sacred Scripture ought to be open wide to the Christian faithful."110

132 "Therefore, the study of the sacred page should be the very soul of sacred theology. The ministry of the Word, too - pastoral preaching, catechetics and all forms of Christian instruction, among which the liturgical homily should hold pride of place - is healthily nourished and thrives in holiness through the Word of Scripture."111

133 The Church "forcefully and specifically exhorts all the Christian faithful. . . to learn the surpassing knowledge of Jesus Christ, by frequent reading of the divine Scriptures. Ignorance of the Scriptures is ignorance of Christ.112

IN BRIEF

134 All Sacred Scripture is but one book, and this one book is Christ, "because all divine Scripture speaks of Christ, and all divine Scripture is fulfilled in Christ" (Hugh of St. Victor, De arca Noe 2,8:pL 176,642: cf. ibid. 2,9:pL 176,642-643).

135 "The Sacred Scriptures contain the Word of God and, because they are inspired, they are truly the Word of God" (DV 24).

136 God is the author of Sacred Scripture because he inspired its human authors; he acts in them and by means of them. He thus gives assurance that their writings teach without error his saving truth (cf. DV 11).

137 Interpretation of the inspired Scripture must be attentive above all to what God wants to reveal through the sacred authors for our salvation. What comes from the Spirit is not fully "understood except by the Spirit's action' (cf. Origen, Hom. in Ex. 4, 5: PG 12, 320).

138 The Church accepts and venerates as inspired the 46 books of the Old Testament and the 27 books of the New.

139 The four Gospels occupy a central place because Christ Jesus is their center.

140 The unity of the two Testaments proceeds from the unity of God's plan and his Revelation. The Old Testament prepares for the New and the New Testament fulfills the Old; the two shed light on each other; both are true Word of God.

141 "The Church has always venerated the divine Scriptures as she venerated the Body of the Lord" (DV 21): both nourish and govern the whole Christian life. "Your word is a lamp to my feet and a light to my path" (Ps 119:105; cf. Is 50:4).

63 DV 13.
64 Cf. Heb 1:1-3.
65 St. Augustine, En. in Ps. 103,4,1:pL 37,1378; cf. Ps 104; Jn 1:1.
66 Cf. DV 21.
67 1 Thes 2:13; cf. DV 24.
68 DV 21.
69 DV 11.
70 DV 11; cf. Jn 20:31; 2 Tim 3:16; 2 Pet 1:19-21; 3:15-16.
71 DV 11.
72 DV 11.
73 St. Bernard, S. missus est hom. 4,11:pL 183,86.
74 Cf. Lk 24:45.
75 Cf. DV 12 § 1.
76 DV 12 § 2.
77 DV 12 § 3.
78 Cf. DV 12 § 4.
79 Cf. Lk 24:25-27,44-46.
80 St. Thomas Aquinas, Expos. in Ps. 21,11; cf. Ps 22:14.
81 Origen, Hom. in Lev. 5,5:pG 12,454D.
82 Cf. Rom 12:6.
83 St. Thomas Aquinas, STh I, 1, 10, ad I.
84 Cf. 1 Cor 10:2.
85 1 Cor 10:11; cf. Heb 3:1-4:11.
86 Cf. Rev 21:1-22:5.
87 Lettera gesta docet, quid credas allegoria, moralis quid agas, quo tendas anagogia; Augustine of Dacia, Rotulus pugillaris, I: ed. A. Walz: Angelicum 6 (1929) 256.
88 DV 12 § 3.
89 St. Augustine, Contra epistolam Manichaei, 5,6:pL 42,176.
90 Cf. DV 8 § 3.
91 Cf. DS 179; 1334-1336; 1501-1504.
92 Cf. DV 14.
93 DV 15.
94 DV 15.
95 DV 15.
96 DV 17; cf. Rom 1:16.
97 Cf. DV 20.
98 DV 18.
99 DV 19; cf. Acts 1:1-2.
100 DV 19.
101 DV 19.
102 St. Caesaria the Younger to St. Richildis and St. Radegunde, SCh 345, 480.
103 St. Thérèse of Lisieux, ms. autob. A 83v.
104 Cf. 1 Cor 10:6,11; Heb 10:l; l Pet 3:21.
105 Cf. Mk 12:29-31
106 Cf. 1 Cor 5:6-8; 10:1-11.
107 Cf. St. Augustine, Quaest. in Hept. 2,73:pL 34,623; Cf. DV 16.
108 1 Cor 15:28.
109 DV 21.
110 DV 22.
111 DV 24.
112 DV 25; cf. Phil 3:8 and St. Jerome, Commentariorum in Isaiam libri xviii prol.:pL 24,17B.
 

shturt678s

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Thank you folks for caring!

Hmmm....the RCC magisterium authority (teaching authority) or the Protestant's magisterium (teaching authority)? Which is the valid rule of faith brother RANDOR?

Old old Lutheran Jack
 

RANDOR

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shturt678s said:
Thank you folks for caring!

Hmmm....the RCC magisterium authority (teaching authority) or the Protestant's magisterium (teaching authority)? Which is the valid rule of faith brother RANDOR?

Old old Lutheran Jack
Jack....I'm on the corner of 4th and Alfalfa...lets ask this homeless man your question...
Excuse me sir may I have a minute............huh?....what?
Yes sir.......do you see tha question above?...."Ya"
Good....and what do you have to say about that.


Huh......well......huh......got it!......Lets take both scenarios and mix them up...shake real hard and use Jesus as the strainer.......
Would much come through?

Jack............ there ya go.........................from the homeless man on 4th and Alfalfa.
 

shturt678s

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RANDOR said:
Jack....I'm on the corner of 4th and Alfalfa...lets ask this homeless man your question...
Excuse me sir may I have a minute............huh?....what?
Yes sir.......do you see tha question above?...."Ya"
Good....and what do you have to say about that.


Huh......well......huh......got it!......Lets take both scenarios and mix them up...shake real hard and use Jesus as the strainer.......
Would much come through?

Jack............ there ya go.........................from the homeless man on 4th and Alfalfa.
I know it would be a walk in the park for you! I didn't mean for you to actually walk in the park...you could have gotten mugged?

Mixture!

Old Jack