Tell me, have you seen him?

[Matthias]

A mortal human person cannot literally see Yahweh’s face and live?

I would say that’s correct.

What about a man who has been changed from mortal to immortal? Can such a man then literally see Yahweh’s face and live?

I assert that such a man can and that Jesus of Nazareth is evidence of that.

 

[PS95]

There are many examples in scripture of man seeing Yahweh in visions.

“No one has ever seen God” -> but many have seen God in visions suggests to me that John wasn’t speaking about man seeing Yahweh in visions. It seems to me that this brings us back once again to “no human person“ has yet literally to see the face of the God of Moses.

A mortal human person cannot literally see Yahweh’s face and live? What about a man who has been changed from mortal to immortal? Can such a man then literally see Yahweh’s face and live?

Seems it was more than just a typical vision. Isaiah had to have his sin removed so he could stay alive. Didn't Isaiah know it was only a vision? Did he just imagine that the seraphim removed His sin with burning coals? Or Was the seraphim confused too? Is that all imaginary?
John said that Isaiah saw Jesus glory in that vision of YHWH.
Some call it a theophany.- a visible manifestation- Either way, it is notable that John said it was Jesus' glory being spoken about that Isaiah saw. John 12:41
He is the King of Glory.

 

[Matthias]

Seems it was more than just a typical vision. Isaiah had to have his sin removed so he could stay alive. Didn't Isaiah know it was only a vision? Did he just imagine that the seraphim removed His sin with burning coals? Or Was the seraphim confused too? Is that all imaginary?
John said that Isaiah saw Jesus glory in that vision of YHWH.
Some call it a theophany.- a visible manifestation- Either way, it is notable that John said it was Jesus' glory being spoken about that Isaiah saw. John 12:41
He is the King of Glory.

What is a typical vision? (I will soon start a thread related to the question. It was suggested to me recently by an agnostic member.)

Suffice it to say here that the Messiah’s glorified face was seen in vision.

 

[PS95]

Yes.

When? I was speaking prior to resurrection of course.

All good things come down from heaven.

He said I have come down from heaven. He is not a thing. He recalled his heavenly existence. A thing does not.

I don’t say that Jesus had no preexistence. I say that Jesus has a preexistence.

as an IT. and IT has no memory

I’ve addressed all of these verses - over and over and over again - in other threads.

I don't have time to read all of your posts Matt. You have over 20,000.

 

[talons]

What is a typical vision?

Tag me when you start the thread I may have something to add to the discussion

 

[Matthias]

When? I was speaking prior to resurrection of course.

I was speaking post resurrection of course.

He said I have come down from heaven. He is not a thing. He recalled his heavenly existence. A thing does not.

as an IT. and IT has no memory

Jesus has always been a person.

“Coming down from heaven” is a common Hebraic idiom.

I don't have time to read all of your posts Matt. You have over 20,000.

Evidence, perhaps, of a misspent adulthood. I don’t address all of the passages in all 20,000+ posts. A simple search of my posts would pull up some of them.

 

[ScottA]

“No one has seen God at any time.”

(1 John 4:12, NET)

That passage must be reconciled with "If you have seen Me, you have seen the Father."

1 John 4:12 then, only refers rather to seeing God before the many who have indeed seen Jesus.

 

[Matthias]

Tag me when you start the thread I may have something to add to the discussion

Why don’t you go ahead and start a thread on the topic? The one I have in mind to start will go in a very specific direction (in response to the agnostic).

 

[PS95]

I was speaking post resurrection of course.

I know. I wasnt.

Jesus has always been a person.

He has always been the same (yesterday today & tomorrow) as He does not change as God does not change. That is not about form.
He said He came down from heaven. I believe Him. --Its don't speak that way nor do they have recall.

Evidence, perhaps, of a misspent adulthood. I don’t address all of the passages in all 20,000+ posts. A simple search would pull up many of them.

You sure can be tough lol I doubt you would like it if I answered you that way.

 

[Matthias]

That passage must be reconciled with "If you have seen Me, you have seen the Father."

That’s right.

1 John 4:12 then, only refers rather to seeing the God before the many who have indeed seen Jesus.

I’ve identified who that God is in many threads.

 

[Matthias]

I know. I wasnt.

We both know.

He has always been the same (yesterday today & tomorrow) as He does not change as God does not change. That is not about form.

I bet if you did a search you would find that I started a thread on that subject within the past 48 hours.

He said He came down from heaven. I believe Him.

So do I.

. --Its don't speak that way nor do they have recall.

Jesus isn’t an it and never has been an it. Jesus has always been a person. Why are you having difficulty understanding that is what I’ve consistently said?

You sure can be tough lol

I’m not being tough at all. I’ve said many times, to various members, that I seldom read or respond to long posts. When anyone starts posting multiple passages of scripture, a response to each scripture would require a long post from me. My tome would be met by their tome and there is no conversation when a tome-tome war breaks out.

I doubt you would like it if I answered you that way.

See above.

 

[Matthias]

I know. I wasnt.

 

[PS95]

We both know.



I bet if you did a search you would find that I started a thread on that subject within the past 48 hours.




So do I.



Jesus isn’t an it and never has been an it. Jesus has always been a person. Why are you having difficulty understanding that is what I’ve consistently said?

Matt please don't play words game with me. If I ask you a question you tell me to search it. You know precisely what I am saying, but you mess with words. To you- Jesus was a person who only existed since birth in Bethlehem . He did not live in heaven. THE IT did.
Feel free to mess with that as well. OR you could just state it simply instead of arguing when I say it my way.

I’m not being tough at all. I’ve said many times, to various members, that I seldom read or respond to long posts. When anyone starts posting multiple passages of scripture, a response to each scripture would require a long post from me. My tome would be met by their tome and there is no conversation when a tome-tome exchange breaks out.
See above.

You don't like post with many verses of scripture. Duly noted.

 

[Matthias]

Matt please don't play words game with me. If I ask you a question you tell me to search it.

Sometimes, not always. It almost always depends on the length of your post!

You know precisely what I am saying, but you mess with words.

Words have meaning. I’m informing my readers what meaning the words have to a Jewish monotheist. They don’t always have the same meaning that they do for non-Jewish monotheists.

. To you- Jesus was a person who only existed since birth in Bethlehem .

That’s not right.

He did not live in heaven.

That’s right.

THE IT did.

There is no it. One last time: Jesus has always been a person.

Feel free to mess with that as well. OR you could just state it simply instead of arguing when I say it my way.

How much simpler does it need to be for you?

Jesus was never an it.

Is that not simple enough?

You don't like post with many verses of scripture. Duly noted.

I don’t like long posts. I don’t like reading them. I don’t like writing them. Please note that.

 

[PS95]

Sometimes, not always. It almost always depends on the length of your post!

My posts are generally short to you and you generally dodge my questions.

Words have meaning. I’m informing my readers what meaning the words have to a Jewish monotheist. They don’t always have the same meaning that they do for non-Jewish monotheists.

That’s not right.

I think if I ask you to explain you will tell me to do a search since you have explained it to someone some other time. lol
You say Jesus had no pre-existence in heaven- ( he was just a plan in the mind of God). That is an IT.
So how did Jesus live prior to birth in Bethlehem? only in God's mind? That's not pre-existence.
Is that how you would word it instead of Jesus had no pre-existence since the thought existed?
if not, I'm done here. I can't get your exact wording needed but it is all the same thing!!

That’s right.

Lets see ok.. since you say He did not live in heaven-- but He existed before Bethlehem-
where did He live? Mars? or is this the word games again?
the IT plan lived in heaven?

There is no it. One last time: Jesus has always been a person.

There is no it now? what happened to it?

How much simpler does it need to be for you?

Jesus was never an it.

Jesus was never an it- right because he had no pre-existence...according to you.
The IT pre-existed. Wait-! there is no it now either. Dude, these word games are tiring.

Is that not simple enough?

Apparently not!

I don’t like long posts. I don’t like reading them. I don’t like writing them. Please note that.

Shall do. You have lots of rules. Good night.

 

[Matthias]

My posts are generally short to you and you generally dodge my questions.

I think if I ask you to explain you will tell me to do a search since you have explained it to someone some other time. lol
You say Jesus had no pre-existence in heaven- ( he was just a plan in the mind of God). That is an IT.
So how did Jesus live prior to birth in Bethlehem? only in God's mind? That's not pre-existence.
Is that how you would word it instead of Jesus had no pre-existence since the thought existed?
if not, I'm done here. I can't get your exact wording needed but it is all the same thing!!

Lets see ok.. since you say He did not live in heaven-- but He existed before Bethlehem-
where did He live? Mars? or is this the word games again?
the IT plan lived in heaven?

There is no it now? what happened to it?

Jesus was never an it- right because he had no pre-existence...according to you.
The IT pre-existed. Wait-! there is no it now either. Dude, these word games are tiring.

Apparently not!

Shall do. You have lots of rules. Good night.

Do you remember saying that you don’t understand what I believe? It’s a fact that you don’t.

 

[PS95]

Do you remember saying that you don’t understand what I believe? It’s a fact that you don’t.

EXACTLY- and it certainly isn't for lack of MY ASKING YOU.

 

[Matthias]

EXACTLY -

Thanks.

***

Let the intelligent reader beware. Anyone who listens to PS95 telling others what I believe and thinks it is accurate has made a mistake.

- and it certainly isn't for lack of MY ASKING YOU.

 

[talons]

Why don’t you go ahead and start a thread on the topic? The one I have in mind to start will go in a very specific direction (in response to the agnostic).

It is live .

What is a typical vision ?

It was suggested in another thread that Isaiah's vision in Isaiah Chapter 6 was more than a typical vision . So , what would be a typical vision in your opinion ? 1In the year that king Uzziah died I saw also the Lord sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up, and his train filled the temple...

www.christianityboard.com

 

[JustMe]

When? I was speaking prior to resurrection of course.

He said I have come down from heaven. He is not a thing. He recalled his heavenly existence. A thing does not.

as an IT. and IT has no memory

I don't have time to read all of your posts Matt. You have over 20,000.

Just one comment. Jesus did not mean he literally came down from heaven. This expression is an idiom used to describe his Father of heaven conceived him through his spirit. Jesus was partly born of God of heaven, and partly of woman, of the earth.

I began a thread yesterday on idioms, and I may add this idiom as part of a small family of idioms into a new post of this thread.