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In this context, faith in God is "the one who does not work but believes in Him Who justifies the ungodly", and the message believed is that God "forgives" your sins (Ro 4:6-8).
If our righteousness (faith is counted as righteousness) is that we are forgiven, then that would qualify as something outside of "works of Law", for sure, since "being forgiven" of necessity means you did things against the Law. Being forgiven is not a work of the Law.
Lambano
Well-Known Member
If you're more comfortable talking about things in terms of Reformed theology instead of relationships and you really want to go down that rat-hole, the "works of the Law" Paul specifically mentions in his letters (see Romans 13-15 and Galatians 2, 5, and 6) were basically Jewish holiness distinctives: Circumcision, kosher diet, Shabbat observance, and the Jewish festivals. These are what separated God's people from the Nations. Paul nowhere disagrees with Torah regarding adultery, murder, lying, stealing, giving to the poor, welcoming strangers.... or trusting God.
"Justification" means being declared or judged "right with God" or righteous. So, Paul's conclusion is being right with God is by trust, independent of the Jewish holiness distinctives.
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I am aware of your view, one shared by Dr. N.T. Wright, but I have to disagree:
Romans 3:20
Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
So that we don't have to guess at the definition of "works of Law" by which comes "the knowledge of sin"...
Romans 7:7
What shall we say then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! On the contrary, I would not have known sin except through the law. For I would not have known covetousness unless the law had said, “You shall not covet.”
Therefore, "coveting" is included in "works of Law whereby sin becomes known".
Paul is not against "the righteous requirement of the Law" (Ro 8:4), he's against the Law as a method of righteousness (we are delivered, now, to Grace as the method of righteousness), since the Law depends on sinful flesh to perform it, making it impossible to produce righteousness by the Law (Ro 8:3; 1 Co 15:43; Gal 3:3).
I think Justification is the adjudication of the Judge about the person after the Judge has examined the evidence and found righteousness. Our righteousness is our faith that God forgives us (Ro 4:6-8 defines our righteousness as "being forgiven"), so we are pronounced "justified" after the Judge has examined the evidence and found righteousness.
"Unrighteousness" suppresses the truth about God (Ro 1:18); "righteousness", therefore, is revealing the truth about God.
This makes sense of "faith is counted as righteousness": When we say, "God says I sinned, and God says He forgives me for Christ's sake," these beliefs and confessions count as "righteousness", because they "reveal the truth about God".
Lambano
Well-Known Member
Paul's argument is that Torah's ability to make us right with God is made weak by the power of Sin with an upper case "S" (Romans 8:3). All it can do is point out where we fail. Paul seems to be counting on the Spirit to lead us in a way that's right with God. (Romans 8:4-9.) How's that working for you? Me neither. Why not? Did we get sold a bill of goods?
And that discussion always ends up in a big p***ing match, which I would prefer to avoid.
Right, but where is "Sin"? It's "in the flesh"--hence, Galatians 3:3 says those who are trying to be perfected by the Law are trying to be perfected "by the flesh".
Romans 8:3
For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh,
It is weak because it relies on sinful flesh to perform it; but, now, under Grace, God performs works in us.
It has worked for me, before--and, in many ways, it's working today--but I just don't understand what the works are securing.
I really do feel like the topic should be discussed if it's in the Bible. I think we can get through it--you can disagree, if you'd like, and we can settle on agreeing to disagree if necessary.
Lambano
Well-Known Member
It's unfortunate Paul borrowed that use of the term "flesh" from the gnostics and docetists of his time. We all have literal flesh it this life. Besides, "flesh" was a good thing in the Old Testament. "...and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh." (Ezekiel 11:19; 36:26.) So what does it really mean? That it's wrong to want to be righteous in this life?
We walk by faith not sight: Paul says that we who are "in Christ" share in Christ's crucifixion death (literal death--or else the Jews are not freed from their obligation to serve by Torah Ro 7:1-6), and His resurrection. Christ destroys "the body of sin" (Ro 6:6), delivering us from it (Ro 7:24,25).
Paul boasts in just one thing: that by the Cross of Christ he has been crucified to the world (Gal 6).
The sinful flesh has been destroyed through sharing in Christ's death.
Lambano
Well-Known Member
So, if it ain't happenin', it's God's fault. I'm cool with that.
See, that's where I'm coming in: what is my obligation under Grace (and what is "on the line")?
Not quite:
Philippians 2
12Therefore, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed, not only in my presence, but now even more in my absence, continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling. 13For it is God who works in you to will and to act on behalf of His good purpose.
So, God is working in us, but we are told to "obey" that working.
Lambano
Well-Known Member
And I don't understand why they have to secure anything. Why not do the good works because God loves you and wants you to do them?
Lambano
Well-Known Member
Because things have to make sense.
I don't like being lied to.
I'm not saying "God is lying", I'm saying "I'm not hearing a clear message".
I like the truth, and I like to understand why I am doing something.
If I can't justify why I am doing something, I'm not going to do it.
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