Terms and Conditions

[Earburner]

1. No, that's not the question.
Many say "faith alone", then, to uphold that in the face of the obvious reality you must do good works, they say "good works automatically flow from faith". That is what I reject, based on the aforementioned Scripture.

2. No, believers are not "sin-less" before the Father:
a. The Christian who sins is "condemned" (Ro 14:23)
b. The Churches' sins were seen by God in Revelation. The God you say doesn't see our sin struck many Corinthian believers with illness, and some even with death, for their sin.

You have not discerned the difference between being "condemned" and being "chastised".

Only "born again Christians", who commit blasphemy against the Holy Spirit are condemned. All others without faith in Christ are "condemned already". John 3:18

 

[GracePeace]

You have not discerned the difference between being "condemned" and being "chastised".

Only "born again Christians", who commit blasphemy against the Holy Spirit are condemned.

You plainly reject Scripture, which says you are "condemned" (Ro 14:23).
You do not accept Scripture because it threatens your man made tradition.

 

[Earburner]

You could argue, "Well, it's not you doing the good deeds, now, it's Christ."

That's all fine and well, but Christ isn't going to go to hell if I don't do the good deeds, I will, so it's me doing them, but if I'm saving myself, I'm my own god, and that's idolatry, which will bring me to hell.

Paul is speaking to believers in Christ who are born again:
1 Cor. 3
[11] For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
> Please digest that.

[12] Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
[13] Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; AND the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
[14] If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.

>Now please digest this:
[15] If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
> Do you know why they were saved, even though they had no enduring works?
The answer is in Rom. 8:8-9.

 

[GracePeace]

You have not discerned the difference between being "condemned" and being "chastised".

Only "born again Christians", who commit blasphemy against the Holy Spirit are condemned. All others without faith in Christ are "condemned already". John 3:18

What you don't accept, or understand, because of your anti-Scriptural man made tradition, is that "there is no sin in Him", so "there is no condemnation for those in Christ", but, ipso facto, this "no condemnation" doesn't apply for believers who do not "remain in Him" (1 Jn 2:28), because of "idolatry" (1 Jn 5:21) (and all sin is idolatry Ep 5:5), which substantiates further the idea that the requirement for "remaining in Him", as 1 Jn 3:23,24 delineates, is obeying the twofold Law of Faith: 1) faith in Christ, and 2) "love one another" or "walk in faith" (same thing--"faith works by love"), since the believer who is "condemned" in Ro 14:23 is "condemned" for "sin" for not walking by faith but doing what he doubted in contravention of the Law of Faith (Ro 14:5).

These puny facts are no match for anyone who wants to harden their head though.

 

[GracePeace]

Paul is speaking to believers in Christ who are born again:
1 Cor. 3
[11] For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
> Please digest that.

[12] Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
[13] Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; AND the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
[14] If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.

>Now please digest this:
[15] If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
> Do you know why they were saved, even though they had no enduring works?
The answer is in Rom. 8:8-9.

Yep, this refers to people who are doing work for God, but I see that you didn't even bother answering 1 Co 10 LOL because you know you can't.

You also fail to understand that people can lose their foundation--eg, with the Galatians, who were "deserting God Who called you in the grace of Christ", and were "severed from Christ".

"How does Paul say 'no other foundation can be laid,' then?"

What does Paul mean? It can't be done? No, that it OUGHT NOT be done--it would be done to your peril.

 

[GracePeace]

Paul is speaking to believers in Christ who are born again:
1 Cor. 3
[11] For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
> Please digest that.

[12] Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
[13] Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; AND the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
[14] If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.

>Now please digest this:
[15] If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
> Do you know why they were saved, even though they had no enduring works?
The answer is in Rom. 8:8-9.

Since you like passages about "foundations"

1 Timothy 6
18They are to do good, to be rich in good works, to be generous and ready to share,19thus storing up treasure for themselves as a good foundation for the future, so that they may take hold of that which is truly life.

 

[Earburner]

You plainly reject Scripture, which says you are "condemned" (Ro 14:23).
You do not accept Scripture because it threatens your man made tradition.

Rom. 14:23. The context has nothing to do with salvation in Christ, but rather ignorantly offending fellow brethren over food. Such an error, is a mistake in one's own "judgment", for not considering others, which is a forgiveable sin.
[22] Hast thou faith? have it to thyself before God. Happy is he that condemneth not himself in that thing [food] which he alloweth.
[23] And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.

 

[GracePeace]

Rom. 14:23. The context has nothing to do with salvation in Christ, but rather ignorantly offending fellow brethren over food. Such an error, is a mistake in one's own "judgment", for not considering others, which is a forgiveable sin.
[22] Hast thou faith? have it to thyself before God. Happy is he that condemneth not himself in that thing [food] which he alloweth.
[23] And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.

1. Actually, it DOES have to do with salvation in Christ. You don't understand how it does, but that doesn't mean it doesn't.
Remaining in Christ requires faith in Christ and walking in faith/love (1 Jn 3:23,24).
"Faith works by love" (Gal 5:6).
The individual "condemned", here, has "sinned" by not walking in faith.
It is a general rule (Ro 14:5), and eating with doubt is merely one example of breaking it.
However, even if you wanted to argue that the issue is about offending his brother, he is sinning by not walking in love toward his brother.
"Do you have faith to eat meat? Good, keep that between you and God, but don't bring condemnation on yourself by practicing in front of your brother, who does not have faith to do that, what you have faith to practice."
We see, elsewhere, that if you eat food sacrificed to an idol, and draw someone else into eating food offered to an idol, but his conscience is not clear to do it, you are "destroying" him by participating in that, and you are condemned if you do that (though your conscience is clear, you're destroying someone else).

2. I never said the individual's sin couldn't be forgiven, but we know sins are "unprofitable deeds of darkness" (Ep 5:11), and we know that the "unprofitable" servant goes to hell (Mt 25:24-30), so we know that sinful living leads to destruction, as I have already proved from 1 Co 9,10, which you failed to respond to.

 

[Earburner]

Yep, this refers to people who are doing work for God, but I see that you didn't even bother answering 1 Co 10 LOL because you know you can't.

You also fail to understand that people can lose their foundation--eg, with the Galatians, who were "deserting God Who called you in the grace of Christ", and were "severed from Christ".

"How does Paul say 'no other foundation can be laid,' then?"

What does Paul mean? It can't be done? No, that it OUGHT NOT be done--it would be done to your peril.

The bottom line is verse 15 for all concerned! Christ will lose no one who has faith in Him for their salvation, and had never denied Him. To believe in Him, and then deny Him, that is the act of blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, whereby there is never forgiveness extended by God again.

 

[GracePeace]

The bottom line is verse 15 for all concerned! Christ will lose no one who has faith in Him for their salvation, and had never denied Him. To believe in Him, and then deny Him, that is the act of blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, whereby there is never forgiveness extended by God again.

1. The Word cannot lose anyone who keeps the Word--correct--but many do not keep His Word, but fail to abide in Him (1 Jn 2:28), and, so, that promise doesn't apply to them.

2. You don't need to deny Christ with your mouth, you can do that with your works.

Titus 1
16They profess to know God, but they deny him by their works. They are detestable, disobedient, unfit for any good work.

As also James says : my works can tell you I have faith.

 

[Earburner]

1. Actually, it DOES have to do with salvation in Christ. You don't understand how it does, but that doesn't mean it doesn't.
Remaining in Christ requires faith in Christ and walking in faith/love (1 Jn 3:23,24).
"Faith works by love" (Gal 5:6).
The individual "condemned", here, has "sinned" by not walking in faith.
Even if you wanted to argue that the issue is he about offending his brother, he is not walking in love toward his brother.
"Do you have faith to eat meat? Good, keep that between you and God, but don't bring condemnation on yourself by practicing in front of your brother, who does not have faith to do that, what you have faith to practice."
"If you eat out of doubt, you're condemned, because what ever is not of faith is sin."--the rule is, "Let every man be fully convinced in his own mind." (Ro 14:5).
We see, elsewhere, that if you eat food sacrificed to an idol, and draw someone else into eating food eaten by an idol, but his conscience is not clear to do it, you are "destroying" him by participating in that, and you should not eat that (though your conscience is clear).

2. I never said the individual's sin couldn't be forgiven, but we know sins are "unprofitable deeds of darkness" (Ep 5:11), and we know that the "unprofitable" servant goes to hell (Mt 25:24-30). so we know that sinful living leads to destruction, as I have already proved from 1 Co 9,10, which you failed to respond to.

I'm sorry, but you are being "pharisaical" in your approach to the Love of God through faith in Christ. To no avail you are splintering splinters, raising contention in others to convince them that they can lose their salvation over ignorance in eating food in public.
Only by denying Christ, after one is saved, will one lose their salvation, having never forgiveness. Through continued faith in the shed blood of Christ, all other sins are FORGIVEN, ALWAYS!!
Mark 3
[28] Verily I say unto you, All sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and blasphemies wherewith soever they shall blaspheme:
[29] But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation:

 

[GracePeace]

I'm sorry, but you are being "pharisaical" in your approach to the Love of God through faith in Christ. To no avail you are splintering splinters, raising contention in others to convince them that they can lose their salvation over ignorance in eating food in public.
Only by denying Christ, after one is saved, will one lose their salvation, having never forgiveness. Through continued faith in the shed blood of Christ, all other sins are FORGIVEN, ALWAYS!!
Mark 3
[28] Verily I say unto you, All sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and blasphemies wherewith soever they shall blaspheme:
[29] But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation:

You don't understand the issue.
Again and again: eternal life is "in His Son", and by "remaining in Christ" you are continuously supplied His Spirit, but "remaining in Christ" requires "obeying Christ", and that is on two fronts: 1) believe in Christ, and 2) love one another.

Since the Ro 14:23 believer is not walking in faith, he is "condemned" for "sin", because "faith works by love", so walking in faith is walking in love, which is the required obedience for remaining in Christ. Those who do not remain in Christ will also stop being supplied His Spirit/eternal life (eg, the branches that grow out of Christ but don't remain in Him thus don't bear fruit).

 

[Earburner]

You don't understand the issue.
Again and again: eternal life is "in His Son", and by "remaining in Christ" you are continuously supplied His Spirit, but "remaining in Christ" requires "obeying Christ", and that is on two fronts: 1) believe in Christ, and 2) love one another.

Since the believer is not walking in faith, he is "condemned" for "sin", because "faith works by love", so walking in faith is walking in love, which is the required obedience for remaining in Christ. Those who do not remain in Christ will also stop being supplied His Spirit/eternal life (eg, the branches that grow out of Christ but don't remain in Him thus don't bear fruit).

And what is that "fruit" but the character of Christ within us, which is opposed to our fleshly will, who lusteth to envy, that He may eclipse our foul character entirely. And of course, that is because He who dwells within us through Christ is the Father, who loves us beyond all measure.

Therefore, when any born again Christian performs their "reasonable service", through faith on a daily basis, we are permitting God to take the lead in and through our lives,
under "His yoke" to lead us into the works that He has prepared for each of us, before the foundation of the world. In Him we can trust that He truly is "the Author and FINISHER of our faith". In light of that, though we often fail, through faith IN Him, we know that HE NEVER WILL!!

 

[GracePeace]

And what is that "fruit" but the character of Christ within us, which is opposed to our fleshly will, who lusteth to envy, that He may eclipse our foul character entirely. And of course, that is because He who dwells within us through Christ is the Father, who loves us beyond all measure.

Therefore, when any born again Christian performs their "reasonable service", through faith on a daily basis, we are permitting God to take the lead in and through our lives,
under "His yoke" to lead us into the works that He has prepared for each of us, before the foundation of the world. In Him we can trust that He truly is "the Author and FINISHER of our faith". In light of that, though we often fail, through faith IN Him, we know that HE NEVER WILL!!

If you construe these things to mean "we can't fall away", we disagree, since Scripture states otherwise, as I have shown.

If you acknowledge good works must be done (in partnership with His working in us) to remain in Him, we have no disagreement.

 

[Earburner]

If you construe these things to mean "we can't fall away", we disagree, since Scripture states otherwise, as I have shown.

If you acknowledge good works must be done (in partnership with His working in us) to remain in Him, we have no disagreement.

I honestly believe that every person, who is born again by the Holy Spirit, cannot "fall away".
However, for those who have "a form of godliness, denying the power thereof", they can fall away from faith, which is only their human faith, because they never opened the door (of their will) for an internal relationship with Christ, who would come into them. Rev. 3:20.

Born again Christians however, are given "the faith of Jesus", which is one of the fruit of the Spirit, and are "sealed unto the day of redemption". It's all there in the parable of the Ten Virgins.

 

[GracePeace]

I honestly believe that every person, who is born again by the Holy Spirit, cannot "fall away".

That is what I gathered.

However, for those who have "a form of godliness, denying the power thereof", they can fall away from faith, which is only their human faith, because they never opened the door (of their will) for an internal relationship with Christ, who would come into them. Rev. 3:20.

"You were grafted in by faith, but can also be cut off for unbelief" (Ro 11:17-23)-- as with the Galatians, who deserted God (Gal 1:6) and were severed from Christ (Gal 5:4) after having believed (Gal 3:1-3).

1 Corinthians 9:27, 10:1-11, which you apparently disbelieve, says Christians who sin can fall under God's wrath and forfeit the promise.

There are other examples, but you don't give detailed answers, and avoid difficult passages, so I won't bother.

Born again Christians however, are given "the faith of Jesus",

That is an incorrect translation--the correct translation is "the faithfulness of Jesus". The same Greek word is translated either "faith" or "faithfulness".

which is one of the fruit of the Spirit,

Same problem: the fruit of the Spirit isn't "faith", it's "faithfulness".

and are "sealed unto the day of redemption".

That verse warns them not to grieve the Spirit, by sinning, because it is by the Spirit that we are sealed--and if we are sinning, we are not abiding in Christ (1 Jn 2:28), and the Spirit, Whom we're grieving, will not continue to be supplied to us (1 Jn 3:23,24). If we are no longer being supplied with the Spirit, we're in deep trouble.

It's all there in the parable of the Ten Virgins.

Not going to bother addressing this, since there is already more information in my response than you're already going to be willing to respond to.

 

[Earburner]

"You were grafted in by faith, but can also be cut off for unbelief" (Ro 11:17-23)-- as with the Galatians, who deserted God (Gal 1:6) and were severed from Christ (Gal 5:4) after having believed (Gal 3:1-3).

1 Corinthians 9:27, 10:1-11, which you apparently disbelieve, says Christians who sin can fall under God's wrath and forfeit the promise.

There are other examples, but you don't give detailed answers, and avoid difficult passages, so I won't bother.

You misunderstand Heb. 10:1-29.
All sins common to men are forgiven, except ONE, the blaspheming against the Holy Spirit, whereby we are sanctified.
[28] He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
[29] Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, WHEREWITH he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
> Done what?
DESPISED the blood of Jesus, which is the very act of committing blasphemey against the Holy Spirit of God, that was given to be within us.
That is the "falling away" from faith (apostasy) that Paul is showing, that deserves sorer punishment.

By the blood of Christ, He is our atonement for all sins, except that one sin: despising the blood of Jesus, wherewith (AFTER) one WAS SANCTIFIED by the giving and receiving of the Holy Spirit.

Edit: let me put it this way: Have I lusted after another for sex, in my heart? Yes! It's a daily struggle for all concerned, no matter who we are, where we are or what we are doing.
But, have I despised (hated) the blood of Jesus for the forgiveness of all my sins, wherewith I am sanctified. N0!!!

Here are they that HAVE the faith OF Jesus... G4102
KJV Usage: assurance, belief, believe, faith (trust), fidelity.

Personally, I perceive that all who are working at, and attempting to achieve a "sin-free" existence, are being spiritually corrupted by a "poisoned well" of pharisaical thinking.

Now, back to the situation of Martha and Mary, as well as the parable of the Ten Virgins.

 

[GracePeace]

You misunderstand Heb. 10:1-29.
All sins common to men are forgiven, except ONE, the blaspheming against the Holy Spirit, whereby we are sanctified.
[28] He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
[29] Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, WHEREWITH he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
> Done what?
DESPISED the blood of Jesus, which is the very act of committing blasphemey against the Holy Spirit of God, that was given to be within us.
That is the "falling away" from faith (apostasy) that Paul is showing, that deserves sorer punishment.

By the blood of Christ, He is our atonement for all sins, except that one sin: despising the blood of Jesus, wherewith (AFTER) one WAS SANCTIFIED by the giving and receiving of the Holy Spirit.

Edit: let me put it this way: Have I lusted after another for sex, in my heart? Yes! It's a daily struggle for all concerned, no matter who we are, where we are or what we are doing.
But, have I despised (hated) the blood of Jesus for the forgiveness of all my sins, wherewith I am sanctified. N0!!!

Here are they that HAVE the faith OF Jesus... G4102
KJV Usage: assurance, belief, believe, faith (trust), fidelity.

Personally, I perceive that all who are working at, and attempting to achieve a "sin-free" existence, are being spiritually corrupted by a "poisoned well" of pharisaical thinking.

Now, back to the situation of Martha and Mary, as well as the parable of the Ten Virgins

I never mentioned Heb 10, so all of this is irrelevant.

Also, you said believers couldn't fall away, now you say they can (if they commit the unpardonable sin). How can you live with such cognitive dissonance?

 

[GracePeace]

Now, back to the situation of Martha and Mary, as well as the parable of the Ten Virgins.

No, actually, this isn't your thread--I'm not interested in your empty speculation on these topics. I'm interested in the topics I challenge you on, but you are finding it difficult to stay on topic (eg, I never mentioned Heb 10, but you "answered" that).

Since you're so ready to talk about other subjects, and not the issues I'm raising, you should make your own threads and hash those topics out over there, not grafitti my thread up with all of your empty speculations and observations.

 

[Earburner]

I never mentioned Heb 10, so all of this is irrelevant.

Also, you said believers couldn't fall away, now you say they can (if they commit the unpardonable sin). How can you live with such cognitive dissonance?

It's part of the equation of God's salvation.
Unfortunately, you are getting confused about it, as most Christians do.

You seem to think that if one should wilfully sin, that causes a person to lose their salvation over sins that are common to men.
Jesus said otherwise.

I am showing what that wilful sin is, and that is to deny/reject Christ after they had become sealed by the Holy Spirit of God, unto the day of redemption. That is the action of blaspheming against the Holy Spirit of God and nothing else! Heb. 10.

It's time for you to trust in Jesus only, and stop trying to save yourself with a pile of good works.
Mat. 7
[21] Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
[22] Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils?
and in thy name done many wonderful works?
[23] And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

WHAT?? Good works "in His name", is iniquity??
NO!! Those who are unsaved do "work iniquity", and are the "foolish virgins", who were claiming to be Christians, but did NOT HAVE God's Holy Spirit (oil) within them.
Please see Mat. 25; John 3:3-8,18; Rom. 8:8-9; Rev. 3:20.