The 12 tribes of Israel: They be us.
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I am not at all acquainted with customs and culture. I try to avoid getting into such things, because I think too many people rely on it, as well as 'original languages' study, to try and prove doctrine. Not that your's is the case. I'll need to see more of what you have. However I do have some quick responses.
1. It occurs to me that Paul wrote plenty about custom and law to non-Jewish believers. In fact, Jewish customs and laws (traditions of men) were the main topic, as in Galatians, because they were getting in the way of the faith of Jesus, even as they did with Jesus Himself.
2. I do not acknowledge 'Jewish law' as valid. If it is written in Scripture as law, then it is law of God; whether that of Moses in the Old, or changed to that of Christ in the New. (Heb 7:12) All else are the traditions and commandments of men, trying to add themselves to God's law in Scripture. (Matthew 15:6,9)(Titus 1: 14)
3. I am not at all arguing Jame's 'bona fides' as a knowledgeable Jew and master of Jewish things, but if such things are inserted in Scripture by God, it is because God is using it to advance Jesus' faith to whosever believes...(I look forward to some examples of this 'Jewishness' in James.)
4. I've made note that James himself could have well believed what God was giving him to write was directed solely or at least primarily to the 'Jewish' believers. As commentators have asked, 'What did James mean to write to the 12 tribes...' And it dawned on me that it doesn't matter one bit what James meant or thought or intended. All that matters is what God means and intends, because it is His Word, and the writers are pens in His hand. Sort of the clay pot and the potter thing. Does it matter what the pen or the pot thinks about what the Master is writing and shaping?
These are my initial gut responses, which may also give you insight more into how I think and go about interpreting Scripture by Scripture.
'replacement theology'? Never heard of it.
As in the Old Covenant replaced by the New? As in the old seed of Abraham cut off and replaced by the New, which old seed can be grafted back in again if they abide not in unbelief? As in the Old temple made with hands replaced by the New made by the Spirit? As in the old man replaced by the New man in Christ? The Old physical and ceremonial replaced by the New Spiritual and living?
You did say replacement 'theology', which of course includes ALL of Scripture.
'male and preserved'?
Is that in reference to being virgins? Preserved from women? Not defiled by women by having sex with them? Because all sex with women defiles men? That would contradict Scripture. For it is not possible for man to be defiled with a wife, where the marriage bed is...undefiled. (Heb 13:4) It is therefore not Scripture to teach abstinence from sex as a notable advantage in holiness with God. Which would contradict Scripture declaring all such will worship (touch not, taste not, sex not) and other kinds of neglect and self-denials are useless and vain in Christ Jesus. So, God would not honor any and choose them specifically for His service, based upon being sexual virgins.
As a born-again washed in the blood forgiven redeemed and follower of the Lamb wheresoever He leads me, I am likewise a virgin and pure of heart, being undefiled with women in fornication. You certainly cannot deny that God has always called false prophets and teachers: adulterers and children of whoredom. Mystery Babylon the Great is the mother of harlots, and she is a city.
God speaks through His Word. He makes a clear distinction between those of the 12 tribes and all others. If your ancestors came directly from the 12 tribes, fine. If not, you remain a Gentile. Which is nothing to be ashamed of. In the Body of Christ there are no distinctions.
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Romans 11:25-27 (NKJV)
25 For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: "The Deliverer will come out of Zion, And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob;27 For this is My covenant with them, When I take away their sins."
A very clear distinction between Israel and Christians! Christians are not Israel.
God spoke to you in an audible voice? What did "God" say to you?
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Taken
Well-Known Member
The Gentiles are not becoming the Tribes.
The Tribes are not becoming the Gentiles.
Tribes and Gentiles have been divided since Early Ancient History...
In the End of Days...there will be no Division of Tribes and Gentiles;
There WILL be Tribesmen and Gentiles that WILL be WITH God.
There WILL be Tribesmen and Gentiles that WILL be WITHOUT God.
Which of course is the standard teaching I have always believed. But I have also learned to trust only the Scriptures, not the standard teaching of them. To know the difference between what is written, and what is not, but only taught as written. And what you say sounds right, but I have also learned what sounds right may only appear right, but true judgment of what is right is found in Scripture only.
1. If 'to the twelve tribes...' in James 1:1 is natural Jews only, then the epistle is not for us, because it is not written to us.
2. God fulfilled the promise to Abraham and the prophecy of the last days to his natural seed in sending them Jesus to confirm it (Rom 15:8), and they refused and killed the Promisor. There is now no more promise of God to Abraham to fulfill to his natural seed, which promise is the whole mistaken basis by which people claim the rise of the beast is used by God to humble the natural seed one last time. That one last time was with Jesus the first time, and these are still the last times and days ongoing. (1 John 2:18)
3. Natural Jews claiming to be the promised children of Abraham now, while rejecting Jesus are liars (Rev 2:9, 3:9). They are not Jews at all, neither children of God's tribes of Israel.
4. Now we are the citizens of the commonwealth of Israel, not natural unbelieving Jews, who remain cut out and cast out in unbelief. (Eph 2:12)(Gal 4:30)
6. "Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise." (Gal 4:28) Now We are the children of Abraham, even as Isaac was, not unbelievers, whether Jewish or Greekish.
7. "But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now." (Gal 4: 29) Far from natural unbelieving Jews being the persecuted object of the beast's rise, they will once again be the helpers of persecution upon Jesus' faithful, even as they were upon Jesus Himself. The earthly nation of Israel will just be one among many gathered at Armageddon to fight the Lord and His host.
It's not from any 'shame' of my bloodline that I believe these things, because I dont care about my bloodline on earth, nor about any pothers, even as God no longer cares one way or the other. There are two bloodlines on earth: them born of the blood of the Lamb, and the rest. And there are two nations on earth: them born into the Israel of God, and the rest.
The Covenant changed, the Law changed, the priesthood changed, the promises changed to another people, and so God's Israel and tribes have changed as well. They are not Jews who say they are Jews and believe not Jesus. We are. Circumcised of the heart inwardly and not just outwardly. (Rom 2) We are the true Jews of the Israel of God, and the churches of God are the tribes of Israel, which are 12 in number.
God was writing to us in James 1:1. If you dont believe that, then dont bother reading it, because it would not then be written to you., even as the 1st first declares.
CoreIssue
Well-Known Member
Obviously you are not a farmer. The Bible says we are grafted in. Grafting does not change the character of the branch, it allows the branch to feed off the tree, but it still remains what it was before, in this case, Gentiles.
And when the church is rapture, the old stone Temple returns.
The 144,000 are all males.
the virgins are all church.
Which of course is Bible truth. However you are free to hold any bizarre ideas that suit you.
Thank you.
Thank you for your expanded response. It is a little clearer.
1. So your 'preserved' was not a sexual virginity?
2. Rev 14: 4 being undefiled with women appears to be males only. However, Scripture does not say they that.
3. Being not defiled with women cannot possibly mean sexual intercourse, which would contradict Scripture that the marriage bed is undefiled. (Heb 13:4) Not defiled there for must be spiritual and/or ministerial.
3. The woman of Rev 12 travailed with birth to bring forth a man-child to God. Paul, as minister of the Gospel, travailed with birth until Christ be formed in the Galatians. A woman is ministry, of which Paul was the same.
4. Heavenly Jerusalem is the city of God and mother of us all (Gal 4:26). Mystery Babylon the Great is that great city and the mother of harlots (Rev 17). Mother (women) ministries, one true the other false.
5. In Gal 4, Hagar the bondwoman is in allegory Mt Sinai of the Old Covenant, answering to earthly Jerusalem in bondage, which is in opposition to the New Covenant Heavenly Jerusalem that is above and free and mother of us all. Another woman ministry in bondage vs our mother that is free.
7. In Heb 12, we are coming to heavenly Mt Sion, which is the New vs the old Mt Sinai in Hagar, who is cast out with her son Esau (Gal 4:30). To keep coming to Mt Sion in heaven and not be cast out, we are to not be defiled, neither be a fornicator as Esau.
8. Wayward Israel played the harlot from God by loving her false prophets, even as a put away woman becoming another man's in adultery. (Jerem 3:1, 5:31).
To sum up, The comers to Mt Sion are not to be defiled with women of another ministry, such as Babylon and Hagar. Unlike Esau, we not to play the harlot to become lovers of another man, than the man Christ Jesus. We are to abide in the doctrine of the apostles who have travailed in birth for us, and the true ministry of Jesus Christ, our mother heavenly Jerusalem. The 144,000 standing upon Mt Sion with the Lamb were not defiled with such women, but was virgin in faith and ministry unto the end, and we see their part in the 1st resurrection in Rev 14.
Spiritually and ministerially, this must at least be given due honor. It is the plain sense of the Scriptures in a Book where we are admonished SEVEN times to hear what the Spirit saith to the churches, and was written almost entirely in the Spirit, where there is neither male nor female. But if an entirely physical interpretation is insisted upon, then I would certainly agree that another more natural interpreter would sincerely say the 144,000 in Rev 14 never had sex with women and were all male.
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"If any man think me a fool, yet as a fool receive me, that I may boast myself a little."
True. No farmer here. And you make a point I never heard, so thanks.
Scripturally then, while grafting does not change the character of the branch, nonetheless the character of the branch MUST change to that of the tree, as we partake of the root and fatness thereof (Rom 11:17). I.e. we must put on Christ Jesus and be transformed into His image. The old character must pass away, and behold all things become new and of God. (Which would include the leaves, as in turning over a new leaf, from the inside out)
"...if the root be holy, so are the branches." Or rather, so must the branches.
Therefore, we which were Gentiles by nature, aliens from Israel and strangers to the covenant of promise, are now become citizens of the commonwealth and children of the promise by birth of Spirit and character of the holy tree of Life. I am an Israelite of God, no more an alien Gentile, which character I no longer have.
And if we cease to partake of the root and fatness of the tree, then we also will be cut off, even as the natural branches that rejected the vine. (Rom 11:21)
And the Jews by nature (Gal 2:15) and not sinners of the Gentiles, who believe not and abide in their sin, have been cut off and become as one of them they boasted against after the flesh of circumcision: sinners of the Gentiles.
And like sinners of the Gentiles, natural Jews abiding not in unbelief, shall be grafted back in to their own olive tree, where we are to welcome them. Wherefore, we boast not against the sinners of the Gentiles, whether natural Gentile or natural Jew. They are ALL apart without respect of persons from the olive tree of God.
And before the 1st resurrection, there will be a final time at the end of these last days, as in the days of Noah, for all such to be redeemed into that Tree, and we which alive and remain in the holy tree, shall be pruned, tried, purified, so only that which is holy from the root and the fatness remains in our branch (and fruit and leaves).
There may indeed be an old stone temple, but not with a capital 'T', nor is it God's. It would be made with hands, and if by natural Jews, then it would be made by the hands that slew our Lord, in the selfsame city, where they will slay God's holy olive trees of witness.
God by Scripture would not claim as His own that foul, corrupt, deceitful, religiously reprobate, and murderous temple, still guilty of the blood of His dear Son. Which would be the case if the temple of God in Rev 11:1 was built by unbelieving Jews in order to resurrection a now dead religion, called the Jews' religion by God. (Gal 1:13,14)
What about the altar therein, where will be the souls under it that were slain for the Word of God during the power of the 1st beast in Rev 6? If it is THE temple of God on earth in Jerusalem, then that is where His altar shall be.
And if THAT building of hands of men is the temple of God that He claims for His own, then when will that temple be uprooted and placed by God into heaven in (Rev 11:19)? For surely He must somewhere between Rev 11:1 and 11:19. Which I suppose He certainly could. And the ark of His testament seen therein at that time in heaven? Was that also in the temple while on the ground made with hands? Did they find it?
The only possible Scriptural way for any temple made with men's hands to be claimed by God as His own, even as in the days of the 1st temple with Solomon, would be for His own Son's people to build it at His personal direction (which indeed could be an exact copy of the 1st), and THEN His glory must needs fill it, as He did in Chron 7. Which of course would be Jesus Christ Himself. And this of course is prophesied during the beginning of His millennial reign.
It makes far more sense to believe that now His temple is in heaven, where He sits on His throne, which is heaven (Is 66:1), and the earth His footstool is the outer court, to be tread by all nations (including the Jewish one) for 42 months. And after the death and 1st resurrection and ascension of His witnesses, with the sounding of the 7th and last trump, the angry nations (including the Jewish one) will be angry still, knowing that their destruction comes quickly. Even as the resurrected saints receive their reward at the judgment seat of Christ, where the temple of God will be opened in heaven to be seen.
Then with the destruction of armies of all nations (including the Jewish one), who are absolutely insane enough to gather themselves together at Armageddon to fight with the Lord and His resurrected saints (even after witnessing their resurrection and ascension), only then shall the Lord descend upon the mount with His temple and His ark and His altar, which is now in heaven, and establish His reign over earth for thousand years.
Sounds good to me.
Sorry, but the church has not replaced Israel.
First of all, the new covenant is still with the HOUSE of Israel, which is national. genetic Israel.
Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
Jer 31:32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
Jer 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
Jer 31:34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.
Jer 31:35 Thus saith the LORD, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The LORD of hosts is his name:
Jer 31:36 If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the LORD, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever.
Jer 31:37 Thus saith the LORD; If heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, saith the LORD.
Paul made it clear God has not cast off Israel:
Rom 11:1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
Rom 11:2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,
And in the above chapter, Paul makes it clear that we gentiles are grafted onto Israel’s tree/covenant, by faith.
Also try reading Romans 11 and substitute Church when it says Israel, and you find that the church is ungodly, that there is only a remnant of the church that believes, but when the deliverer comes out of Zion, all the church will believe and be saved - which is obviously not so.
The church is the church, and not the nation of Israel.
Shalom.
Thank you brother. (Since I take it you believe Jesus, and the New Covenant has replaced the Old) I like the 'genetic' Israel and will use it as natural Jew, or Israel after the flesh (As Paul does (1 Cor 10:18)
And so, believing Gentiles are not part of the believing house of Israel? And so, there are two houses in the body of Christ: the house of (genetic) Israel and the house of (genetic) Gentiles?
Since the word of God is unbreakable and not one word can be changed, another word can only be added. The word church means, "a building of the Lord." It "replaced" the word congregation, Greek ekklesia. In other words, it was added. Go to Revelation:22:18. Now you tell me if it matters. :)
The church of Jesus does not replace Israel (Replacement theology?), i.e. the church of Jesus is not nor does not become the house of Israel. (Correct?)
Let's look at the house of God:
In the Old Covenant it was His temple (1 Kings 6:17) (2 Kings 24:13).
In the New Covenant it is His temple and the church and body of Christ (1 Cor 3:16, 12:27) (Col 1:18)
The house of Israel was not the House and Temple of the Lord made with hands in the Old Covenant.
The church of Christ is the house and temple of the Lord, the body of Christ, born by the spirit (1 Peter 2:5) in the New Covenant.
If the church of Christ is not (replaced) the house of Israel, and the church of Christ is the house of God, then the house of God is not the house of Israel in the New Covenant. (Scripture of God is very analytic: if A is not B, and A is C, then C is not A.)
If the New Covenant is with the house of Israel, then the New Covenant is not with the house of God, since the house of God is not the house of Israel, because the house of God is the church of Christ, which is not (replacing) the house of Israel. (if D is with B, then D is not with C, because C is A, and A is not B)
But, since the New Covenant is with the house of God, then the house of Israel must be the house of God and the Church of Christ, if the New Covenant is with the house of Israel. I.e. either the house of Israel is the house of God and church of Jesus Christ, or the New Covenant in Jeremiah is not with the house of Israel, which is contrary to Scripture.
Scriptural logic always breaks down with false interpretation of Scripture.
You continue to flounder around in your confusion. But the Bible is crystal clear.
1. The New Covenant has replaced the Old Covenant.
2. The New Covenant applies to BOTH the Church and redeemed and restored Israel in the future (after the Second Coming of Christ).
3. Israel is presently judicially blind because the Jews have largely rejected their true Messiah (Jesus of Nazareth).
4. God has a distinct eternal plan and purpose for the Church (the Body of Christ, which includes both Jews and Gentiles).
5. God also has a distinct eternal plan and purpose for redeemed and restored Israel (the twelve tribes) ON EARTH for eternity.
6. God's plan for Israel will go into effect only after the Second Coming of Christ. See the prophecy of Ezekiel (and many others).
7. During the Church Age, God makes no distinction between Jews and Gentile, and all are commanded to repent and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ.
Not sure what you mean. Are you saying the Scriptures have broken themselves by changing and adding to themselves?
The church is the ekklesia, the called out ones, as Jesus said from the beginning: I will build my church--ekklesia.
Build is oikodomo, as in we are living stones built up--oikodomo--a spiritual house and holy priesthood, which is the church--ekklesia.
You probably refer to 1 Cor 3:9, were we are God's husbandry and building--oikodomo.
And so the ekkesia church of God is also referred to as the oikodomo building of God, neither changing nor replacing the other, since the ekklesia is still written as the church all the way to Rev 22: 16. It is an added and complimentary description by God of His church and building.
But Goid can add to His own Word all He wants and has been doing so since Gen 1:1. The transgression against God's Word (Rev 22:18) is when men do so without God nor His Spirit, but from their own minds (Num 16:28). And since Scripture in the present world is at an end ar Rev 22:21, then if any man now does add to the Scriptures, he is immediately proven a false prophet, apostle, teacher, etc...
Interesting thought though. God breaks His own Word of Scripture by adding Scripture to His own Word...
